Touch in therapy...it's gone.

scorpiosis, I seriously want to hug you! Thank you! AllHeart...THANK YOU. I agree, she should have been clear about that from the get-go. She's fine with hugs, and said so. Honestly, what you said about countertransference is something I thought of today. But I brushed it aside, thinking I was just trying to come up with any excuse at all. But she has been quite affectionate with me when I've been really upset. So of course it's hard to hear "ok, party's over! Back to your regularly scheduled therapy!" There have been so many things go on in my life since I started seeing her last May. At two sessions per week, it has always seemed there's been some sort of new development or dilemma. I feel like a drama queen, but it is my life. I asked her NOT to judge me based on my past (regarding her Email...when she said my reaction is about my past, not therapy). That this has nothing to do with past trauma at this point. I haven't even considered the connection. I can tell by her Email "tone" that she's not very happy with me. She's never been like this. I'm supposed to see her Thursday. I'm afraid if I go, I won't talk anyway. I'll just cry, and leave. Just guessing....

I just can't believe all that transpired today, I'm so numb. I've been shaking all day (even on Xanax).

That's it. No more email. Don't write them or read them. Talk about this in person, so you can get every nuance of her facial expression, her tone, her body language; and that she can see yours. Things have a way of escalating through texts or emails that would never go so far face-to-face.

It sounds like she was feeling uncomfortable with her closeness, maybe she sought supervision over this, and was swayed in that manner? In which case, it has absolutely nothing to do with you, and everything to do with her. Not that she'll ever admit that in a million years.

I'm sorry you're going through all this, I wish you the best.

And unrealistic expectations....I want to know what this means?! If she started backing off a month ago, as she said, I only noticed last week when I was lowest of the low. What, unrealistic expectations as in I call her asking for a "holding session?" I ask her to make house calls? I demand extra appointments? I find the touch sexual? NONE of those. I honestly think, AllHeart, perhaps it was some transference on her part. Is it not interesting that she's going through issues with her teenage daughter now? Was she trying to soothe me like I was her daughter? She would hold me, rub my back, have her hand in my hair or on my forehead.... maybe she was doing to me what she wished she could do to a possibly rebellious daughter. I'm not saying that's the case.... but teenagers can be temperamental! In which case, that's NOT my fault if she felt that way. I know there were some sessions where that grounded me enough to be safe driving home. I have left sessions wondering which ditch to drive into with the biggest tree in it. That caring, that touch, helped me get myself in a better place. So I was safe. I never told her that though. I don't care that, for the most part, she takes it away. If I knew it wasn't permanent....if I knew it was reserved for only the most special of circumstances, I would be fine with that. Like say I kick hubby out. My next session I'm inconsolably upset. I would really appreciate it then.

I'm beating a dead horse here. (and whoever talked about training vs breaking horses, I understand that, I have horses, and have trained my own as well).

I have my next session on Thursday. I wanted to cancel. But I will go, see if she has anything to say. She loaned me a book, and I will return it then. No, I'm not done with it, but I can get my own copy if I so choose, if I decide to quit, I want to make sure she has her property back.

I have always been respectful of her, and very appreciative. I never would have, 10 months ago, fought for myself like I did today. yes, I can tell it made her angry. But really, she should be proud I'm sticking up for myself. I never have. Therapy taught me to. I know I'm proud for sticking up for myself, even though I'm still not getting through to her and pissing her off.

I may lose my courage come Thursday, but as for now, I plan on going. If I don't, I'll send her a check for $150 (session fee without 24 hour cancelation notice) and be done with therapy. I'm not starting all over again with someone else.

Thank you much. AllHeart said the same...which I just responded to. I will say she's been doing this for 25 years and owns her own practice. No superiors. But that doesn't mean she may not consult a colleague or something. I also addressed countertransference. You posted while I was writing mine.

And no, I didn't respond to her last Email and don't intend to.

I rather have kind words, actions and given extra attention/Time than to be held, hugged, or touched by a T. I am so glad my T does not use touch as a method to comfort. I do expect a hug on my last session with him.

I have noticed it, too. Yay you!

I'm so glad to hear that you intend to go and stand up for yourself. The more you are able to calmly and rationally communicate your points, the better. Whether she is able to listen and hear you or not is up to her. But if you're able to tell her how you feel, what you think, and what you need-- you should be very proud of yourself!

She needed to pay more attention to the first few sentences of her email.

I'm glad you can recognize that you have made progress during your 10 month journey! It's encouragment to me (and many others I'm sure) that therapy is worth it.

Counter transference makes a lot of sense. A lot of T's will make 360's like this once they realize they have it. It could be she viewed you as being like her daughter, or possibly even herself. My T often tells me how much I remind her of herself, and how much our lives parallel each others. We def have transference and counter transference which has been working out great for us, so far. But, knowing in the back of my mind T could back-off because she realizes the depth of her counter transference scares the crap out of me. If she ever took away the "extras" she gives me, I don't know what I would do.

Good luck, Thursday!! If it helps -- we all got your back on this one!!

Which one? The last one? (about talk therapy, not physical touch)

If it helps at all, I will say this. I have a friend who is a T who shared with me what was going on with a client of hers (didn't give identifying info). My friend said that she was withdrawing hugs and regular phone calls from her client basically because the client needed to deal with her pain/loss and stop avoiding it. Basically my friend felt sucked dry by this client, even though she was the one who suggested the phone calls in the first place. But instead of framing the issue to her client as "I don't have the energy for this anymore, how else can we meet your needs?" she just decided to withdraw these things and make it about how the client needed to face her stuff.

I pointed out to my friend that her client was not on board with her agenda to wean her off of those things and that my friend could do more to make things collaborative. I meant that she should try to get the client on board with a plan to meet the client's needs that my friend would also be comfortable with, but my friend only heard "you can do more" and then told me she was very hurt by what I said and that I was not recognizing HOW MUCH of herself she had put into her work with this client. It became very obvious to me at that point that a lot of the difficulty had to do with my friend's own issues, probably around giving more than she was comfortable with but feeling that she couldn't do or give enough to satisfy people. She really was not able to hear my feedback at all, sadly enough. And I believe my friend is a good T, just that with this particular client, the client was pushing a lot on her own issues.

This was all a way of saying, don't think this is about you. It's not. Something is going on with your T, whether it's mediocre supervision, countertransference, her own discomfort with dependence, something. To boot, she is now getting defensive with you which doesn't help at all. I hope that she will be able to do enough of her own work on this to be helpful with you in the future, and that you can work it out together.

I'm trying to tell myself it's not about me. When Allheart brought up countertransference, I thought more about it. Like I said in a previous post, I had considered that, but let it go just as fast. I figured she's stronger than that, and there's nothing special about me for her to have feelings about. But recalling her comfort, and knowing what's going on in her personal life with her daughter, maybe it is. I probably shouldn't have been made aware of her personal situation, but it was affecting my sessions enough that she figured it was best to tell me. Delayed or shortened sessions, interruptions, canceled sessions, etc. But thinking back on it now, she was quite motherly in her actions....it helped me to snap out of what I was in, but maybe there was more to it for her. I think we both drained each other today, yes, but I don't believe I drain her in general. And now, I intend not to contact her at all between sessions...even though, on several occasions, she's insisted I Email her. And if I don't, she Emails me, or texts. As a client, I do think I take up a good portion of her time/thoughts, but that's not my fault. She doesn't need to Email or text me, nor does she need to so outwardly encourage Emails. I've talked to her about Emails, and that I don't like taking up her personal time with them, and she encourages me still to write. She knows I am better with feelings that way. But I don't like taking up her time...and once, not too long ago, I had a session on a Monday, where we talked about Emails, she insisted on them, and I insisted on NOT doing them, (basically what I said above). Tuesday night I get an Email from her concerned that she hasn't heard from me. "I said more, not less" she said. I Emailed her back then and told her I JUST saw her the day before!

I do not doubt for a moment that my T cares about me. I know she does. In turn, I care about her. I appreciate all she has done for me up until this point, but I do not agree with this most recent decision, and I did not back down about it today. So much so, I know she's upset with me...I could "hear" it in her Email "tone." It will be interesting to see what happens on Thursday. I want to talk about it... but I am also very easy to dissociate (which is why, I think, she started coming to sit by me in the first place...to help me snap out of it)...and I want to do what I can to "stay with it." I take Xanax. I never take it before I see T though, as I want her to see me as I am. But I'm thinking for Thursday, I may, before I leave for my session. Maybe not the greatest idea, but I want to stay with it, and not "check out." Even though I don't know where I want to go with this yet, I do have a slight thought (fear, perhaps) that Thursday will come around and she'll want to terminate me. I know that's stupid thinking...she has always encouraged me to speak my feelings loud and clear, have a voice. I just don't know if she was prepared for me to use it against her as much as I did today.

Realistically do I think she'll terminate? No.... but I also don't know if I'm strong enough to stay. And I know I'm not starting over. Nope. I lived for 40 years without therapy, and I can live another 40 years without it.

I'm just sick, and disgusted with myself that I can't take this better. I have a session tomorrow, and part of me feels like she'll decide to let me go before I let her go. I identify with Scarlet's post. I think the same may happen to me. I told my T she's just not listening to me, she doesn't give a ***** what I think.

I called into work yesterday because of this, and the panic attack that ensued yesterday morning, and I let her take over my mind all day yesterday. I got a few hours of sleep, and feel a little better, but still devastated and hurt. It is not true. She says it's MY therapy and I have all the power. She's just shown that it is SHE who has the power. And being "her job," I can't have a say in my own care. I have a great deal of respect for my T, and I love her dearly, as my therapist. (not in the same way I love my son, or best friends, or even my animals,) but more as the type of love I have for the kids I work with at school. I have a love for them all. In a different way. I don't understand how she can actually tell me, more than once, she loves me (part of me doesn't think that's appropriate), and that's ok, but sitting by me, rubbing my back, maybe even letting me cry on her shoulder (which I've never had anywhere else), is not ok. The Emails have stopped. I quit responding. But I'm fearful of what I will walk into tomorrow. I could tell by her tone she's upset with me, and I'm just not a fighter. I have felt a great deal of support here in this post, and I want to say I appreciate each and every one of you. I will be taking you all with me tomorrow. Stop dog, you are priceless. Even if you don't understand the mentality of what some of us feel, you are helpful in your own way. I wish I could take lessons from you. I find your relationship with your Ts to be what I wish mine could be. Go in, use them for what's good for me, then leave. I think you have a good feeling of self. And you aren't going to take anyone's crap. I commend you. And envy you for the way you think about the therapeutic process, because you are safe. The therapeutic relationship just sucks.

I had a few hours of sleep last night, dreamless sleep thank goodness, and although it still hurts, I'm not at the point I was yesterday. Although I did pop a Xanax minutes within getting out of bed...just to help me not start feeling the way I did yesterday. Off to get ready for work.

Thank you all. You all helped me get through the day yesterday. Things in my life will be changing drastically (in a good way) in less than two weeks, and I think in that regard, I may find I don't need her anymore. If she doesn't let me go first.

I will never forget her, if I do leave, nor will I forget what she HAS done for me.

Still feeling sullen. But off to get ready for work. Check in later. ANd Scarlet, if you're reading this, I'm thinking of you and holding you close to my heart. We all gotta stick together.

I wasn't going to reply to this thread and part of the reason I decided to respond is due to the thread by Scarlet. Please keep that in mind and feel free to ignore everything I say.

The situation is complex and my point-of-view will not be popular. First, I want to say I'm sorry you're going through this and you have every right to feel dismayed and upset by her actions. I'm not criticizing you in any way and I don't think you've done anything wrong.

But I do think your T -- and every person --- has the right to unilaterally decide whether or not they want to give or accept bodily contact of any kind. We don't have to consult the other person or discuss it with them or get their permission. If we want to withhold giving or receiving bodily comfort and contact and physical touch, we have that right and we don't have to explain ourselves if we don't want to.

There will be repercussions. People won't like it. A sudden change can and will destroy relationships. But if someone wants to avoid or limit physical contact, none of us has the right to demand it, even if their actions hurt us and their reasons aren't sound.

You've decided therapy is worthless to you if it doesn't include physical touch -- sitting next to you, rubbing your shoulders, holding you to ground you. She says no more of that.

The situation has become untenable. You're not willing to accept therapy without touch and she's not willing to provide you with that touch. You're both fully within your rights as human beings. The minute you start demanding more touch than she's willing to voluntarily provide, you've crossed the line. You don't have to like her decision in any way, but when a person says "hands off," we had better abide by it.

Unless you can accept that, please walk away. Terminate. End it while you still care for each other. You do it, with dignity and style. Unlike you, I do believe she will terminate you if insist your need for touch in therapy is more valid or important or bigger than her need to refrain from it. I'm not saying she's right, I'm saying she has the right to her own body for whatever reasons she has, whether they be good or bad.

Your therapy has gotten messed up in some way. I'm not going to speculate on how or why, or how she could have or should have done it differently, except to say I don't think it's your fault in any way.

My comment is limited to this concept: Every person has the right to bodily autonomy and to unilaterally decide how much to share their body with anyone else without having to seek the other person's permission or approval. You have the right to hate her decision.

Snake Charmer, thanks for your input.
You are right, she has the right to give and take away. She wasn't taking away all contact. She still wanted to hug me at the end of sessions, but I figured that's another thing she could eventually take away, so decided it's in my best interest to cut it off myself.
There's more to the story of course, and part of that is, she talked me into disclosing something I didn't want to. I wasn't comfortable with it. Not ready. She said "its time to tell me." I told her of my fears that if I disclosed this, something would change. She said"not here." So I disclosed, and something changed. I wish she'd never have started it to begin with... her actions helped me get myself in a good place to drive home safely. It certainly was't every session. It was when I was very upset and blubbering, or if I was dissociating, as a way to bring me back. I never expected it, she gave it as she felt fit.

Musinglizzy, I want to reiterate that it's clear you've done nothing wrong. There's no fault in anything you've done. At all. I'm really sorry you're going through all this.

I will go tomorrow and we will talk. Perhaps I shouldn't have, but this morning I woke up and Emailed her apologizing for antagonizing her. In a way, she's proud. She helped create the person I was, sticking up for myself. That wasn't me before therapy. She was frustrated I'm sure, but she's proud.

I think pretty much everyone here agrees with this. My objection is not that she decided not to do touch anymore, but how she chose to frame and explain it. Mainly, telling musing that it was for her own benefit without discussing that with her, and also getting defensive about the issue.

wish i had something healing to say. my t did this too, but yours has done in in what seems to be a very elegant and least hurtful way than mine did.

I hope you manage to get through this and move forward with her in your therapy. ::huggs::

Of course everyone has the right to say no to touch. I don't think anyone is arguing that. It doesn't sound like musing is demanding it or did demand it. I do think in therapy it should be explained. How do you ever work through anything if it isn't explained? I can't understand the belief that a therapist can't or won't offer some kind of explanation. Therapy shouldn't be about confusion. I think things should be clear.

In musing's case the therapist is trying to make it sound like it is in her best interest, but I wonder if it the therapist's issue after all.

The therapist has realized that she is no longer comfortable with the touch. Of course she's putting it in terms of the client is strong enough now, the relationship will sustain the client, the client can't depend on the therapist to hold her every time she gets upset, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

The reality is she made a mistake and there's no way she's owning that, so she hems and haws and gets defensive and antagonistic to confuse the client and create a screen to hide behind.

Lizzy I hope you can salvage this relationship but if this is the end, I agree with snake charmer YOU terminate with her before she hurts you anymore. If you can't progress without physical comfort, and she can't provide it, there is no reason to go further. *hugs*

Thanks PuzzleBug.... nope, I never demanded it. She hugs me at the end of every session. Quite long hugs actually. So it's not that she isn't ok with touch. In fact one of my recent sessions, were I was kind of in a dissociative state, she had to, three times, ask me to stand up so she can give me a hug.

I was locked up tight when I started therapy. And I definitely wouldn't cry. She tried to get me to cry...telling me how important it was. It was probably two months in I finally did. I cried, and I hated it. I was shaking horribly (something I do when I'm trying to fight my emotions) and I was self conscious about crying, and felt weak. I meekly asked her if she could "come over here, or is that against the rules?" She said "I was just going to." I wasn't going to ask anything more than that. I've never held her hand or anything like that. Never had the desire. She came and sat by me and put her arm around me and pulled me in. So althoughI asked her to sit by me, she initiated the touch. Several times after that, she did the same when I got upset. I only asked the first time. She'd rub my leg, or my back, put her arm around me and invite me to cry on her shoulder. Or hug me. My head would be on her chest, and she'd rest her head on mine...she'd run her hands through my hair, or simply rest a hand on my forehead. I never asked for any of that, in fact, it surprised me, but I didn't mind. It helped me feel safe. I got used to it.

So again, I NEVER asked for that. I asked for her to sit by me ONCE. the first time, maybe 8 months ago. Since then, she's come over all on her own, and initiated touch/holding that I never expected or asked for. I was uncomfortable at first, but not so uncomfortable to make it stop (actually I felt childish). But I learned to appreciate it, because it helped ground me. It helped me get out of the bad place I was in. Taking it away so abruptly just confuses me. Like it was my fault to begin with? She was very motherly in her touch. She's having some issues with her teenage daughter right now, which takes up a lot of time and worry. Perhaps she was holding me, like she wished she could hold her daughter? Maybe it got to HER. I hope that's the case....

Anyway, I so dearly appreciate all of the words of wisdom here in this thread, from all sides. I ask for pocket riders tomorrow.... I am GOING to my session. I'm very nervous about it, but I am going. She said "we will talk." So I know she has some things already that she wants to say. She also said "the love isn't going away." That's just confusing. I want to continue to give our therapeutic relationship a chance....and tomorrow will be a true test. I'm quite nervous....but I also am trying to gear myself up to be more vocal than I am usually.

What I'm VERY nervous about is dissociating. How can I avoid that??? I do NOT want to shut down. But that is something that is easy for me to do.... I even do it in my home life. I lose time. I want to stay focused and "there." I hope I can. That is another reason she used that kind of touch. To help "bring me back" when it's happened. Now I suppose I'll just sit there. Eventually she was able to help me snap out of it. I had one session recently where I "checked out," and was sent out the door when I wasn't really all there yet. I ended up in a neighboring parking lot, sitting in the snow. So it's not always safe to let me go when I'm like that, but she's on a schedule and has to leave. I can't let myself be in that kind of shape at the end of a session anymore. Especially when her touch helped me recover. Obviously I'm not recovering on my own yet. The incident where I ended up in a different parking lot in the snow....that was only a couple weeks ago. I don't remember getting there.

Do you have an idea of what you want to get out of the session tomorrow? That might help you keep a focus on things and show that you want to do therapy rather than have it done to you.

Not quite....I'm working on it. I know I want peace, not turmoil....beyond that, not sure....