[PinkFlamingo99]

Has anyone else been damaged by this word in therapy?

I seriously can't stand it. If I hear someone say the "m-word" I feel like I'm being punched in the stomach. I haven't had the BPD diagnosis since it was replaced by OCD 10 years ago and I still hate this word. I don't find it any less damaging or judgemental than words like "sinful" or "bad."

To me, it's a word that drips with malicious intent -- a value statement, not a clinically descriptive word.

I heard someone else called this word the other day and I had a crazy visceral reaction to it.

[stopdog]

Kind of an ironic phrase for those people to throw at clients seeing as how they are wily and manipulative themselves.
I have been called confrontational - not so much manipulative - I generally don't have the patience to try to manipulate one them.

[PeeJay]

There are more charitable words than manipulative, for sure!

How about: Good at motivating others to give us what we want?

I dislike the term as well. I have toddlers and I've heard other adults accuse kids of manipulating adults. And I don't see it that way.

One of my kids fake-cries a lot and wants comforting. And I comfort her the same as when it's a "real" deep cry. The fake cries are sort of hollow noises, not really deep, but so what. If the child wants to be held and snuggled and kissed and reassured, why can't I do that? I'm not being manipulated.

Maybe this wasn't what you meant but I am just agreeing that the term "manipulative" is not a helpful construct to describe behavior.

Edited to add:

Also, there are other words that are more specific. My mother-in-law is a manipulative narcissist. But that's shorthand. A more accurate way of describing her behavior is thus: The woman fabricates facts to get others to give her what she wants. She is not usually interested in how other people feel and lacks real empathy, and she will divide the family by lying about what another person said. She also exaggerates imagined slights against her.

So that's a longer way of saying it, but more accurate than the word "manipulative."

See? "Manipulative," isn't really helpful. I bake cookies for the back-office staff at my therapy office. Am I a therapy client who is manipulating people into liking me? Maybe I just like baking cookies and making people happy!

[anilam]

I'm sorry you feel this way. In the evolutionary psychology field the "m-word" is used quite often and carries a neutral connotation, so no, I don't see it that way.

[PinkFlamingo99]

When I think back... Being a suicidal teenager. How was calling me manipulative helpful? Even if it was true. It's a scary word for someone who is basically a scared kid. I hear it used a lot.

[unaluna]

A girlfriend once called me manipulative. I eventually realized it was a) a trick i learned from my mother b) the reason i often used the "royal we" c) a ploy i used because i was afraid of asking for something directly. Now i practice asking directly for stuff in therapy, and here on pc, and try to carry it on into real life. I was afraid to ask for a schedule change, now i am much better about it. So thats one reason i am so adamant that therapy works! Kinda silly, i know.

[PinkFlamingo99]

I'm sorry you feel this way. In the evolutionary psychology field the "m-word" is used quite often and carries a neutral connotation, so no, I don't see it that way.

I think clinically this word is often mis-used and it can be a painful word. In evolutionary psychology it implies survival, and nobody is going to judge someone for that. Clinically and in terms of PDs specifically I think it helps perpetuate that idea that people with certain diagnoses are difficult or even untreatable, especially in terms of self-harm. There is still a lot of bias in mental health toward people with axis 2 diagnoses.

I know people don't like the term, and I completely realize people manipulate others without being completely cognizant that what they are doing is manipulative, but being on the receiving end of those kinds of behaviors isn't at all pleasant and is also quite damaging in itself.

[PinkFlamingo99]

We all manipulate to a certain extent. I told my boss I liked the leadership seminar. I didn't.

Originally Posted by PinkFlamingo99

We all manipulate to a certain extent. I told my boss I liked the leadership seminar. I didn't.

Of course we do. Some people are just highly prone to use this tactic more frequently and in much more damaging ways.

[PinkFlamingo99]

I agree. But not neccessarily the people who get labelled with it.

Originally Posted by PinkFlamingo99

I agree. But not neccessarily the people who get labelled with it.

Well, since I generally don't know peoples' labels, that really doesn't enter into things really, not for me anyway.

I do have a husband with BPD and he has been know to be highly manipulative/use emotional blackmail, etc. He did it before his diagnosis and after. The label didn't really make any difference on the receiving end. Either way, it sucked. (He rarely does so anymore though; he faced the responsibility he had for his behaviors and found better ways to communicate his needs.)

It's a strong word. I think those that are manipulated feel just as strongly about naming what they have experienced. 2 sided coin thing.

[PinkFlamingo99]

I was abused by a manipulator as well.

However, I just don't agree that self-harm is automatically manipulative.
In my case it was OCD. In a lot of cases there are other reasons. It makes people who self-harm just seem like attention-seeking manipulators. I think anyone in that situation deserves help.

[Partless]

For me I can stand the word "manipulative", I can't stand someone being called "toxic."

[Salmon77]

I think once you recognize that everyone behaves in a manipulative fashion in one way or another--that is, they do certain things in an effort to provoke specific reactions in others--and that manipulation is a normal thing, you have to also recognize that the word "manipulative" to describe an action is not necessarily meant as a negative moral judgment. It's just a description, and whether it is correct or incorrect, it is not an insult.

[Salmon77]

I completely realize people manipulate others without being completely cognizant that what they are doing is manipulative

And to add to my previous--maybe this is why sometimes it's good to label manipulative behavior as such. So that the person performing the behavior can recognize what they're doing and understand why they're doing it or what they're hoping to gain, and maybe even find a more effective and less damaging way to fulfill those needs.

[Partless]

Manipulation and being manipulative, when used in psychological context, always have a negative meaning to it so I don't think anybody who uses the word means something positive by it. Manipulation is associated with power games and threats to autonomy and freedom, and lack of transparency. But what is it exactly?

I've heard the word too often, used it myself on occasion. Though I dislike someone being called toxic much more, the word manipulative is certainly not a good word to use to describe people. And sometimes leads us to draw wrong conclusions about someone.

My two issues with this word would be about intentionality and clarity of meaning. Not everybody who does things labeled manipulative is doing them intentionally and fully consciously to get certain results. Sometimes the behavior is just habitual. Sometimes the person is not trying to engage in power games in the way people assume. In other words, they're just sinking and desperate and grasping at anything to survive so it's quite wrong to assume that just because someone uses manipulation then they're some unfeeling person interested in overpowering or hurting the person they're dealing with. For better or worse, it might have little to do with the person at the receiving end of the behavior and much more to do with the person doing it and their state of mind and their environment.

And this brings me to the second issue. What is specifically manipulative behavior anyways? All of us use behaviors, at one point or another, that can be labeled manipulative. There is especially real danger of further stigmatizing people who are or feel powerless and who have experienced abuse and trauma and great injustice, given that they're most likely to use the behavior we so often label as manipulative.

My mother has borderline traits and sometimes would use behavior that one therapist constantly referred to as "manipulative." It made me afraid of her and later I hated her with great passion. Fast-forward a few years and my views changed. Yes, she did press my buttons and knowing I was guilt-ridden anyways, she would use obligation and guilt to get me to do what she needed me to do. These methods were very powerful. Caused me great suffering. But I also realized these behaviors said as much about her state of mind. There was great fear and pain behind much of her actions, as if so much depended on all these requests, as if every day was a potential crisis, strong emotions on the line, her value, her worth. She lived so many days at the edge of life. Unlike my dad, she also had a lot more invested in me emotionally.

I don't think I'm explaining this very well, my brain keeps freezing on me, but what I want to end this with is that when you look at such a person's behavior in context, it's just wrong to call it "manipulative." That label does more to misinform and confuse the matter, with its associations of malice and threat, that it's hard to look at what is actually happening without many assumptions.

[PeeJay]

Human nature is to manipulate one's environment to suit our biological impulses. When someone needs attention and does something to get that attention, that is not any more "manipulative" than feeding oneself to "manipulate away" the hunger.

The term is not helpful, particularly when used to describe the behavior of someone who is in therapy.

I suppose I pay my session fee up front and on time each week to manipulate my therapist into thinking I am a good client! ...Oh gee, it's not "manipulation" when it's a behavior that people like.

Suicidal behavior is not manipulative. .... grrr .... that's so inconsiderate and mean to say that of someone!

[iheartjacques]

I dislike that word. I do understand that it means to mould or shape something. Like manipulating clay in pottery.
When T said manipulating the situation to get the best outcome for everyone, I said hey that makes me feel like a bad person. He said ok it is a clinical word that has been given negative connotations. But how about managing the best of people and things to their strengths? He said good managers play the strengths of their staff to get a good team.
So I still struggle with that word. Especially after I read awful letters or emails from my parents.

[iheartjacques]

I agree that suicidsl behaviour isn't manipulative. It's s person's response to their own emotional pain.

Originally Posted by iheartjacques

I agree that suicidsl behaviour isn't manipulative. It's s person's response to their own emotional pain.

Suicidal threats as an ultimatum to get people to do what you want them to do absolutely IS manipulative and emotional blackmail. Trust me. Been on the receiving end of that one.

[Partless]

LolaGrace, you don't have to, but do you think you could repeat what you just said without using "manipulative" and "emotional blackmail", in a way that's more descriptive?

Originally Posted by Partless

LolaGrace, you don't have to, but do you think you could repeat what you just said without using "manipulative" and "emotional blackmail", in a way that's more descriptive?

No. Not really. I refuse to minimize the effect that kind of behavior has on the receiving end. Minimizing it, excusing it, calling it anything more politically correct doesn't change the horrendous terror that kind of behavior leaves the other person on the other end. When a person directly tells you, "If you don't do X, I will kill myself," it leaves you paralyzed with fear that your every move will be the cause of death for a loved one. My other reaction was "How dare you make me responsible for your life or death!" That kind of manipulation causes a person to feel trapped, suffocated, and riddled with anxiety for responsibility for another person's life or death. No. There is no kinder way to put that.

I am not saying everyone who is suicidal is doing it in that fashion, but some do, and when they do, that IS manipulative in the very worst way possible.

[stopdog]

I have had someone to whom I was very close, in my past, tell me they were going to commit suicide if I did not do x. I did not get all worked up about it. I didn't do it, they did not kill themselves and we are not in touch much because I failed at caring enough (their words). I am fairly immune to that sort of thing because my mother did it at me all the time (not suicide - but she was going to leave the family because I did or did not do X, and other things of the sort. I saw my sibling react with hysteria in order to get her to stop and I would get accused by both of not caring or driving her away or other things. I did care but she never followed through and it felt like she was trying to steal my soul - I did feel manipulated by her antics because she was trying to get a specific reaction out of me. And I resolved to not be manipulated by others in that fashion - and I am not). I guess what I am saying is that I did not respond by feeling trapped by the person nor responsible in any way for what they did or did not do. I didn't want them to be dead, and I would have missed them, but not my problem if they chose to die.
I do however think of it as different in the case of a therapist than with real people.