So instead of going in and acting out my anger, I decide to explain the whole thing. I tell him how I hated his message, and how I am really pissed off at him. But that I didn't want to act it out, I wanted to talk first. I told him I wrote a whole much of awful stuff about him because I was so mad.

He asked me what I would have wanted out of the message. I didn't want to tell him right away. So instead, I told him about how much I like to be comforted and babied. I told him about my gay friend who I feel so safe with. Because he calls me "babygirl" and he will just sit with me and play with my hair and we can talk. I told him how my husband doesn't do that kind of stuff so much anymore.

Then he asked again what I wanted out of the message. He said he understood my story about my friend was related to what I wanted out of the message. I said to him, "Please, you know exactly what I want out of your message. Why do I have to say it?" And he keeps looking at me, all smug and stupid looking. So I said, "Fine. I wanted you to comfort me and baby me over the phone. And instead all you did while I was feeling totally disconnected, was state the obvious." And he said, "So basically there was no sympathy or caring or empathy from my message." DUH. Then he said I had every right to be mad at him.

Then he asked if I could convey some of that anger right there, in session. So I said fine-- And I told him, "I think your an %#@&#! for leaving that lame %#@&#! message. In fact, I hate you, and what %#@&#! pisses me off the most is that I have to sit here with all this emotion-- deal with this %#@&#! attachment-- and you don't have to %#@&#! feel anything."

Then he says, "You don't think I feel anything?" And I said no.

Then I waited... expecting him to explain that of course he felt something. But he didn't. So then I really got going.

Told him I wanted to destroy him. But since I couldn't do that physically, I wanted to destory anything that had elements of him in it. Told him that I wanted to rip up the McWilliams book. In the end, he told me to hold off on that one because I'm gaining some serious insight from it.

I said.... the point is, is that I have to feel all this emotion towards you... the engulfment of attachment, the heartbreak of disconnection, and I don't care if it's true or not that you don't feel anything... i feel like you don't.... you just sit there, then you go home, and you don't have to %#@&#! feel one thing.

And he's just sitting there. I wanted to kill him.

Then I talked a little bit about McWilliams- about how in the borderline character, she cited Masterson, who said that anger is autonomy. Should be encouraged by the therapist. It's a wonderful theory, the 1st I have ever read in which it states that the mother was loving and attached to the child-- but the separation-individuation did not happen properly. So I said that I understood why the anger was encouraged.

Then I talked about masochistic behavior-- McWilliams says that those who self-injure are doing so because they only learned to get love and comfort when they were suffering.... Attention when they were sick and such... Told him this is why I am afraid to get better, why I continue to make myself do badly. Then I asked my T-- what happens when this runs out? When I keep trying to create the pain so that I will get the comfort-- but the comfort runs out? I told him that this theory fit me perfectly in regards to why I SI and why I don't want to get better-- except that I am not getting the comfort and safety from him that one looks for in the McWilliams theory.

Then I told him that lately, I was irritated by him all of the time.

He said that this was wonderful progress.

(How ironic, the process of therapy)

Then I basically spent the last 15 minutes of the session completely angry and annoyed at him. I told him how difficult the disconnection was. He said, "What can I say to you that's right?"

And of course I took this as transference to the extreme. I think he was asking this as an honest question, in which he wanted me to answer in regards to what things he could say that would help. But of course, I got irritated because people have said this to me all of my life... Things like... "I can never win with you" and "I can never say anything right to you."

So I told him this. THEN he started throwing in some stupid %#@&#! empathetic comments like, "I see how agonizing this would be for you" and "'I can understand why you would be mad."

I rolled my eyes. For the 1st time, he sounded like he was reading empathy statements off of a list or something... lik some of my classmates at school. You know, when you are 1st learning how to do therapy, they teach you some crappy empathy statements... and they always sound so fake. That's what his sounded like.

I felt like he had run out of stuff to say. Like I was getting to be too much for him. Too intense or something. I never felt like that with him before. I always felt as if he was able to match my intensity.

Told him that my unconscious doesn't know the difference between what it's like to have therapy once per week, and to not have it at all. Feels the same during the week, what with all the disconnect and all.

Then he made some lame comment about how if I get a break in my schedule, we can try to fit in another appointment. This pissed me off too because he %#@&#! knows that I am not going to get a break in my schedule.

At this point, I basically couldn't even look at him because I was so mad. I wanted so badly, for him to say something... something that would matter... like how last week he said that thing about how I would never lose my uniqueness... it was so striking... but this evening, all he did was make lame suggestions and reflective comments. It seemed so.... generic. Like I said before... I always felt he could match me. Today I felt lost. Like he didn' t know what to do with me. He couldn't say anything right.

Maybe we lost something today. I don't know. ..

And the end he said, "I think this was a really good session." And I said, Yeah. For you." And he said, "Yes. Good point." Because he knew I was feeling like %#@&#!, and just because in his book it was a "good session" didn't mean that I saw it that way. Because I'm the one who has to feel like this.

So he asked me to continue that idea in writing. And bring it in next week. I asked him if it is possible whether he can read things that I write without me in front of him... bring it home or something. And he asked, "Is it also possible that we can discuss why you want me to read your stuff when you are not around?" I said 'yes.' And he said, "Good-- then both things are possible."

I %#@&#! hate him.

hey. sounds like a productive session even though i understand that it didn't feel like a good session because the emotional connection was lacking.

> So instead of going in and acting out my anger, I decide to explain the whole thing.

thats great!

> I told him about how much I like to be comforted and babied. I told him about my gay friend who I feel so safe with. Because he calls me "babygirl" and he will just sit with me and play with my hair and we can talk. I told him how my husband doesn't do that kind of stuff so much anymore.

(does your husband know how much you like this? could you tell him and then be able to cue him in with "i need some attention"?)

> "Fine. I wanted you to comfort me and baby me over the phone. And instead all you did while I was feeling totally disconnected, was state the obvious." And he said, "So basically there was no sympathy or caring or empathy from my message." DUH. Then he said I had every right to be mad at him.

Anger is an understandable response to needs (including emotional needs / needs for emotional intimacy) being frustrated.

> Then he says, "You don't think I feel anything?" And I said no.

> Then I waited... expecting him to explain that of course he felt something. But he didn't.

There is meant to be this tricky thing... About when and how much a therapist should fulfill / indulge the clients desires and how much a therapist should retain neutrality and not make a move to fulfill / indulge them.

> So then I really got going.

lol. i bet you did. i would have as well.

> Told him I wanted to destroy him.

> I said.... the point is, is that I have to feel all this emotion towards you... the engulfment of attachment, the heartbreak of disconnection, and I don't care if it's true or not that you don't feel anything... i feel like you don't.... you just sit there, then you go home, and you don't have to %#@&#! feel one thing.

> Then I talked a little bit about McWilliams- about how in the borderline character, she cited Masterson, who said that anger is autonomy. Should be encouraged by the therapist. It's a wonderful theory, the 1st I have ever read in which it states that the mother was loving and attached to the child-- but the separation-individuation did not happen properly. So I said that I understood why the anger was encouraged.

What does it say about anger and autonomy? I'd be interested to know if you felt like sharing more.

> ...except that I am not getting the comfort and safety from him that one looks for in the McWilliams theory.

> Then I told him that lately, I was irritated by him all of the time.

> He said that this was wonderful progress.

%#@&#!. he is reinforcing your anger / autonomy rather than your helplesness / playing the sick role.

> He said, "What can I say to you that's right?"

> For the 1st time, he sounded like he was reading empathy statements off of a list or something... lik some of my classmates at school. You know, when you are 1st learning how to do therapy, they teach you some crappy empathy statements... and they always sound so fake. That's what his sounded like.

yeah.

> I wanted so badly, for him to say something... something that would matter... like how last week he said that thing about how I would never lose my uniqueness... it was so striking...

could you tell him that?

i read something once about how the moments in therapy that are striking to the therapist are often quite different from the moments in therapy that are striking to the client. the therapist tends to think the most significant moments are when they make some insight they are all proud of. the client tends to think the most significant moment is when they got some sense of emotional connection. sometimes therapists don't know precisely what they do that we get so much out of...

> Maybe we lost something today. I don't know. ..

maybe... you do need to tell him what you need. find something that does help you feel connected. maybe some kind of visualisation exercise or something like that. not sure.

[sunrise]

pink, I'm sorry you had such a tough session, but I think it sounds very productive and challenging also. You must have such incredible trust for your therapist that you are able to be so angry with him in session. Kudos to you for achieving that.

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Then I talked about masochistic behavior-- McWilliams says that those who self-injure are doing so because they only learned to get love and comfort when they were suffering.... Attention when they were sick and such...

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This is interesting to me as I am a former cutter, and this explanation does not resonate with me at all. SI never got me any attention because I never told anyone about it or showed them my cuts. I kept it all hidden and secret. I didn't do it to get comfort from others at all. I did it to release the emotional pain inside of me. I think McWilliams is making quite a blanket statement, and that there are multiple "benefits" people can derive from SI.

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I rolled my eyes. For the 1st time, he sounded like he was reading empathy statements off of a list or something...

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I can tell that must have hurt and sounded very fake. (((hugs)))

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from alexandra_k
i read something once about how the moments in therapy that are striking to the therapist are often quite different from the moments in therapy that are striking to the client. the therapist tends to think the most significant moments are when they make some insight they are all proud of. the client tends to think the most significant moment is when they got some sense of emotional connection. sometimes therapists don't know precisely what they do that we get so much out of...

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alex, I wrote that here a couple of weeks ago. I find it fascinating.

> I think McWilliams is making quite a blanket statement, and that there are multiple "benefits" people can derive from SI.

yeah... to be charitable though... maybe... the only way you would be able to show a little TLC to yourself... was when you were in pain / need? perhaps... fond of the endorphin hypothesis myself but i guess they could be all bound up...

> i read something once about how the moments in therapy that are striking to the therapist are often quite different from the moments in therapy that are striking to the client....

> alex, I wrote that here a couple of weeks ago.

lol. knew i read it from somewhere :-)

Pinksoil, I got so much from reading your post! I know how hard that session must have been, but I do believe you will look back on it and smile eventually and see it as a major turning in point in becoming whole.

I too si not for outside attention because my si was secret, but the internalised mother was there once I had si, the mother that only paid attention when I was ill.

I liked the way your T asked you to write about it for the next session, it feels as if he was making sure you would have somewhere safe to dump all the feelings brought up in session, after session???? and not just be stuck with them?? I thought that a really caring thing to do. I could be wrong.

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from alexandra_k
i read something once about how the moments in therapy that are striking to the therapist are often quite different from the moments in therapy that are striking to the client. the therapist tends to think the most significant moments are when they make some insight they are all proud of. the client tends to think the most significant moment is when they got some sense of emotional connection. sometimes therapists don't know precisely what they do that we get so much out of...

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alex, I wrote that here a couple of weeks ago. I find it fascinating.

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Was that Irvin Yalom? He wrote when he asked his clients to wrote down what they remembered about session, it was the little things. He was shocked-- he thought they would remember his 'brilliant' interpretations, his insight-- the things that matter to the client were so very different than that.

I remember when my T recalled a part of a dream that we had discussed weeks prior. I remember the way that he looks so engaged when I'm talking... the time he laughed hysterically at something I said...

Brilliant interpretations? I don't remember if he made any. lol.

McWilliams wasn't talking about SI specifically-- she was talking about the mascochistic personality in general. I focused in on SI because it is familiar to me. She used it as an example-- but was talking about all self-defeating behavior.

It also makes a lot of sense in regards to my fear of getting better. I have often felt that if I am 'sick' then somone will care. I am 'special.'

I remember as a kid, my mom was all over me when I was sick. Too much, in fact. But I understand now that it had to do with her anxiety problems. I remember the comfort in getting sick as a kid. Because the rest of the time, she was not present as I needed her. Always napping, watching TV, addicted to the internet, etc.

McWilliams isn't necessarily saying that if you cut yourself, it is to seek attention. We all know that if someone sees our SI, they aren't exactly going to hug us, baby us, and say that it's going to be ok. But... it is fulfills our own need to ensure that we are sick-- in hopes that our emotional needs will be filled-- perhaps with our Ts. It's unconscious-- all that we know. I hide my SI-- I'm not putting out in the open, in hopes that someone will see it and comfort me-- but it's an unconscious attempt at keeping the pain, the suffering... because I don't know any other mechanism right now.

I used to get babied a lot when I had the panic attacks. Now I don't have them anymore... so I don't get babied so much. My husband has probably run out of 'comfort patience' at this time. It's not that he doesn't support me-- but I think it gets old, you know?

That creates a great disconnect-- what happens when your self-defeating continue to occur because that is all you know-- but the consequence of them has run out.

[sidony]

Hey pinksoil!

Damn what a session. But I'm going to maintain my stance that you have a really good therapist. And I think he was intentionally letting you keep going with the whole anger thing by not giving you what you needed. I doubt you've lost anything there. I think you've just put more on the table! I've never managed to flip out at my therapist. I don't know what it would feel like. If I get angry, I'll turn the anger on myself. He probably wants to see how intense you can get. Don't give up on him. You might not get striking statements every time you're there, but I think that might be an unrealistic expectation. When you do it'll be worth it.

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i read something once about how the moments in therapy that are striking to the therapist are often quite different from the moments in therapy that are striking to the client. the therapist tends to think the most significant moments are when they make some insight they are all proud of. the client tends to think the most significant moment is when they got some sense of emotional connection. sometimes therapists don't know precisely what they do that we get so much out of...

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Love this though I've gotten confused on whose quote this is in this conversation. Once, in my journal, I tried to write down all the statements that really stuck in my head after session, the stuff that left me with really intense feelings. And it was the most random crap. Like his once saying "that might be a difficult hurdle" stayed in my head for hours and left me with really intense feelings towards him. And it's not like that was any kind of insight, just a comment on something I was worried about. Guess it was one of those connection moments....

Curious if getting all the anger out there is cathartic at all?

Sidony

[sunrise]

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pinksoil said:
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from alexandra_k
i read something once about how the moments in therapy that are striking to the therapist are often quite different from the moments in therapy that are striking to the client. the therapist tends to think the most significant moments are when they make some insight they are all proud of. the client tends to think the most significant moment is when they got some sense of emotional connection. sometimes therapists don't know precisely what they do that we get so much out of...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
from sunrise
alex, I wrote that here a couple of weeks ago. I find it fascinating.

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Was that Irvin Yalom? He wrote when he asked his clients to wrote down what they remembered about session, it was the little things. He was shocked-- he thought they would remember his 'brilliant' interpretations, his insight-- the things that matter to the client were so very different than that.

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pinksoil, the place I got that was a paper from the professional psychology literature. I don't know if Yalom was an author on it or not. This was a research study examining patient and therapist picks for the most significant moments in therapy sessions. They used the therapists who had conducted the sessions, as well as "neutral" therapists who listened to recordings of the sessions. The neutral therapists and therapists who had been part of the sessions were pretty much in sync with their significant moment picks. The moments that patients/clients identified were quite different from the T's, as alex described in her synopsis. I found it to be a fascinating study!

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I hide my SI-- I'm not putting out in the open, in hopes that someone will see it and comfort me-- but it's an unconscious attempt at keeping the pain, the suffering... because I don't know any other mechanism right now.

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pinksoil, that's interesting what you wrote about SI. thanks for the clarification. For me, it was pretty different. My SI was not a way of keeping the pain going, but a way to release and feel the intolerable pain that had built up inside of me. It actually was a way of letting the pain go, not keeping it. Back then, when I was doing it, as now, I needed to learn healthier ways of feeling and expressing my pain. Again, this is something I wish was written into a how-to manual they give each person at birth.

[lauren_helene]

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pinksoil said:

I remember as a kid, my mom was all over me when I was sick. Too much, in fact. But I understand now that it had to do with her anxiety problems. I remember the comfort in getting sick as a kid. Because the rest of the time, she was not present as I needed her. Always napping, watching TV, addicted to the internet, etc.

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I'm telling you, we had the same mother! We didn't have the internet when I was a kid but being sick meant she was attached to my hip. Not sick? she was napping, watching tv...yelling at me if I startled her...