[Chummy]

Today. I sat in the waiting room. I saw a girl leaving T's room 10 minutes after her endtime. T started with me 5 minutes late. Not the first time. Since she works a this place, she has been 2-8 minutes late for most of my sessions. It especially bothers me when I know it is because of the client before me.

So today, I kind of broke down when I sat down in T's room. I had to cry. I haven't cried in months, I think it's because of the meds. I didn't want to talk. I stayed quiet. T stayed quiet. We might been like that for half an hour. Then T asked what I want. Do I want to leave and come back next week. I didn't know. After being quiet some more, she asked if I want to write it down. So I did that.

What I wrote: about her being often late for my sessions, that it makes me feel like I'm less than others, that I'm not as important as her other clients, that I feel I'm never important to anyone, not to family, friends, classmates, T's.

Things she said after she read it:
I should be on time for all sessions, but sometimes there's something that has to be taken care of or the client before me stayed over time.
Me being late for sessions has nothing to do with you as a person. Do you think I'm never late with other clients? There has been a few times that you stayed a little longer, right? Sometimes I still have to finish something with a client and I don't just send them away just because we're out of time.
Do I make you feel like your not important when we're in session? It's more important what we talk about than it is about the minutes we are in here.
I'll promise that I try to start and end on times when your sessions are.
You can't think rational right now. If you think rational about this, then you know this, that me being late has nothing to do with you and that you're just like the other clients.
Why does all this comes out now? Has something other happened?

This conversation didn't make me feel better. It might even have make things a little worse. I wish I had acted like there was nothing, like I did those other times. I think I shouldn't have said anything about this.
Now I'm scared she doesn't like me or think I'm annoying or a crybaby.

I'll promise that I try to start and end on times when your sessions are.
-> This didn't make me feel better. To me this sounds like I'm difficult and whine about everything.
It also doesn't help me. I still think T thinks I'm less than her other clients. That she likes her other client more than me. I don't know how she is with other clients. This is the only thing I can see, a client staying over time. And I interpret that as clients who stay longer than their endtime and which affects the next clients startime, those clients are more liked by T.
So yes there have been a few sessions that went a bit overtime. But that were only a few minutes. And I didn't saw someone sitting in the waitingroom when I left. And today T went over time. 9 minutes, but actually 4, because she was 5 minutes late. The next client was waiting. I first had to go to the bathroom. And when just when I left I heard T saying hi to the next client. On time.

[Chummy]

She asked me to write this thing about this situation. I don't know what it's called in english, but it has to do with automatic thoughts. She asked me to email it to her tomorrow.

I'm not sure why this bothers me so much. I think that maybe deep down I actually want some kind of confirmation from T. I think I want to hear her say to me something like: I do like you / you are important / I care about you / I like seeing you / I don't think you're annoying.
She has never said something like that to me. The closest that she has said is I don't think you're ugly or fat. One time, when I was talking about that I think I'm ugly or fat.
Some months ago I've told her that I'm afraid she thinks I'm annoying and that she might think she like her other clients more than me because they probably talk more than me. She hasn't actually said ''I don't think you're annoying''. She said something like: all persons are different and that's what make my job so interesting. You are not a big chatter and you probably will never talk a lot, but that isn't a bad thing.
It's just so... general.
I worry a lot about what other people might think of me. It has become less, but with people I like or people I see more often, I do worry a lot. And I think I'm most concerned about what T thinks of me. Maybe because she knows so many ''bad'' things about me. Maybe I want to hear from a T that I'm *something positive*. I didn't had this with most T's. I also didn't like most T's. A few years ago I was in grouptherapy and it was 5 days a week and you also lived there except in the weekends. And because we were youth there always at to be at least on T in the house. But anyway, I got to see how T's acted with people. And they aren't the same with everyone. It was very obvious that T's liked some clients a little bit more than others. And I know the left me a bit by myself. It was very hard to get me talking.
And also I've read articles from T's and most have had clients who they liked a little bit more than their other clients.
So my T can like others more than me. She can think I'm annoying.

I'm not really sure if there's anything T can say or do that will make me believe she doesn't think I'm less than her other clients. I can't read her mind so I can't be sure what she really thinks.

[Inner_Firefly]

It must have been so hard to cry and feel less important, and have your T's response be not validating. Sounds like she didn't apologize for making you wait, or recognize the anxiety it caused you to see the other client staying over time while you wait, or have empathy for your feelings? Instead she said you're not rational, that that's the way it is, etc. which makes you feel even less important, like your feelings don't matter, just like you feel like you don't matter to people in real life! Also you wish she could say something positive to you, such as she likes seeing you, or she cares about you, and in this situation when you need reassurance and she doesn't give it, I can see why it causes you to feel worse. Not sure what the solution is, just wanted to say I understand!!

[Chummy]

I'm not sure if she apologize. She said that she should be on time, but that's not always possible. I can't remember if she also said sorry.
She said she can sort of understand my train of thoughts; her being late makes me think I'm less important than her other clients. But then she said if I would look at it rational then I would see that it doesn't mean that I'm less than other clients, rationally I know that I'm just as important as other clients and that she doesn't think I'm less.
But that's just it. I don't know that. T's can like some clients more than others. I've seen it in my previous therapy and I've read articles from other T's.

Usually she's a very good T and she understands me. But about this... She knows I'm worried than I'm less than other clients. She knows my experiences in previous therapy and what has happen.

I also don't really know what to do. How I can feel better about this. But thank you for your reaction. I was afraid that I was over-reacting. I'm now even more scared that T doesn't really like me. She has done things that would show she at least still want to see me, but that was months ago. Things can change. And I'm afraid it has.

[SkyscraperMeow]

The way my therapist deals with the issue of sessions sometimes needing to run over time is he doesn't book clients back to back. I think there's something like a 15 minute window between appointments, maybe more. This means a) you never run into other clients b) other clients sessions never run into yours and c) you're never rushed out of a session.

It's one of the many things I appreciate about him.

Frankly, I think therapists who book back to back are craven, greedy, lazy people trying to milk every dollar out of the day, and I wouldn't see one. Another client's session should NEVER bleed into yours. Ever.

You shouldn't be 'doing work' to process trauma inflicted by your therapist's need to pack clients in like sardines. I think your therapist's actions, especially turning this around on you as if it's some issue of yours are borderline unethical.

[Chummy]

But my T has 15 minutes between sessions. So she should be able to be on time. At her old workplace she was almost always on time. But since she works at this place she has been a few minutes late for most of my sessions. At her old workplace I think I might ran into other clients 3 or 4 times. At her new workplace I often run into other clients, usually because they stayed over time. It's not like I'm really early. I don't think I ever felt like I'm rushed out of session.

I don't know what changed.

[SkyscraperMeow]

Originally Posted by Chummy

But my T has 15 minutes between sessions. So she should be able to be on time. At her old workplace she was almost always on time. But since she works at this place she has been a few minutes late for most of my sessions. At her old workplace I think I might ran into other clients 3 or 4 times. At her new workplace I often run into other clients, usually because they stayed over time. It's not like I'm really early. I don't think I ever felt like I'm rushed out of session.

I don't know what changed.

I guess you just have to bring this up with her and be firm about it not being acceptable. It's even worse that she used to be so good and has slipped. She may need a reminder, though it shouldn't really be your job to have to do that. I'm sorry to hear this is happening to you.

[Chummy]

Thank you. It's only the being late that is bothering me about her. In sessions she's still a good T. Though there has been a few times when she was late where I felt that she didn't had time to prepare for my session.

[unaluna]

I would tell her, "i AM being rational! Rational would mean i always get my minimum time, not that i give my time to other clients. YOU are not rational!" All clients should get same time. Not one gets 30, one gets 40, one gets 50!

[ruh roh]

Can you ask to be the first client of the day?

[Chummy]

Originally Posted by unaluna

I would tell her, "i AM being rational! Rational would mean i always get my minimum time, not that i give my time to other clients. YOU are not rational!" All clients should get same time. Not one gets 30, one gets 40, one gets 50!

You are right. I do usually get 45 minutes, though there has been a few times when she started late with me but still ended on time. I haven't paid a lot of attention to the endtime. I get bothered when she starts late with me because of the client before me.
I should tell her that. T needs to keep track of time and make sure she ends on time. But I'm very passive. I'm afraid for confrontations. I had so much trouble with telling her that her being late bothers me. I didn't even tell her, but I wrote it down.
I'm such a doormat.

[Chummy]

Originally Posted by ruh roh

Can you ask to be the first client of the day?

The first appt of the day is very early and not so convenient for me. The route from me to her office is a very busy road, so there would be traffic jams that early.
And also, I had a few of my sessions after her lunchtime and even with those she was a little bit late. Two weeks ago she was 5 minutes late, she also had to go to the bathroom first. So they have lunch in the other building. It's only like a 2-3 minute walk from there. There is no reason to be late.

[confusedbyself]

Chummy, I am SOOOO there with you right this second. I read your post earlier and just left my own session feeling EXACTLY THE SANE WAY. I have had my session run late in the past, but lately it has seemed that he had been real careful to keep it to the 50mins. Today there was someone in there when I arrived and they were there a few minutes after the hour and then he made sure I left right on the 50mins and nobody was there after me. All I can do now is think that I have been right for a while now and he IS trying to get me out asap and not others.

So sorry you are dealing with this to. I hate this abandonment issue and even worse when all signs point to these fears being correct.

[junkDNA]

my T used to be chronically late.... it would upset me..usually make me angry.. i also felt unimportant..and that his time meant more than mine. each time i just straight up told him that i thought it was disrespectful. part of him being late was because of his job (clinical director in a treatment program) but it continued on when he left and opened a private practice. eventually after all the times i told him it made me angry and it was disrespectful, he has gotten much better about it.

i understand how it can feel like you dont matter as much or T doesnt like you. i hope you can write the free -writing email to your T. i hope she responds well to it and apologizes and works on her punctuality. sometimes i think Ts dont really know how small things like this can build up and build up and lead to breakdowns in clients

[ruh roh]

Originally Posted by Chummy

The first appt of the day is very early and not so convenient for me. The route from me to her office is a very busy road, so there would be traffic jams that early.
And also, I had a few of my sessions after her lunchtime and even with those she was a little bit late. Two weeks ago she was 5 minutes late, she also had to go to the bathroom first. So they have lunch in the other building. It's only like a 2-3 minute walk from there. There is no reason to be late.

I'm sorry. I hate having this happen, which has only been a few times. I think that when my therapist does go over, it's because she has a new client, and they tend to go over. I try not to think that it has anything to do with me, but I hear you. It's hard.

[Argonautomobile]

Originally Posted by Chummy

She asked me to write this thing about this situation. I don't know what it's called in english, but it has to do with automatic thoughts. She asked me to email it to her tomorrow.

I'm not sure why this bothers me so much. I think that maybe deep down I actually want some kind of confirmation from T. I think I want to hear her say to me something like: I do like you / you are important / I care about you / I like seeing you / I don't think you're annoying.
She has never said something like that to me. The closest that she has said is I don't think you're ugly or fat. One time, when I was talking about that I think I'm ugly or fat.
Some months ago I've told her that I'm afraid she thinks I'm annoying and that she might think she like her other clients more than me because they probably talk more than me. She hasn't actually said ''I don't think you're annoying''. She said something like: all persons are different and that's what make my job so interesting. You are not a big chatter and you probably will never talk a lot, but that isn't a bad thing.
It's just so... general.
I worry a lot about what other people might think of me. It has become less, but with people I like or people I see more often, I do worry a lot. And I think I'm most concerned about what T thinks of me. Maybe because she knows so many ''bad'' things about me. Maybe I want to hear from a T that I'm *something positive*. I didn't had this with most T's. I also didn't like most T's. A few years ago I was in grouptherapy and it was 5 days a week and you also lived there except in the weekends. And because we were youth there always at to be at least on T in the house. But anyway, I got to see how T's acted with people. And they aren't the same with everyone. It was very obvious that T's liked some clients a little bit more than others. And I know the left me a bit by myself. It was very hard to get me talking.
And also I've read articles from T's and most have had clients who they liked a little bit more than their other clients.
So my T can like others more than me. She can think I'm annoying.

I'm not really sure if there's anything T can say or do that will make me believe she doesn't think I'm less than her other clients. I can't read her mind so I can't be sure what she really thinks

I really identify with this. My T has never told me "you matter," "You're special," "I like you," in any very overt way. And I hate how much I want that from him. Here's how I started to think about it, and maybe it'll help you, too--

In a way, I'm grateful that T has never given me that kind of validation. I think it would be extremely addictive and make me dependent on his "approval," thus re-creating a lifelong dynamic where I need to find validation and approval from outside sources instead of finding it in myself. If I got to go in every week and feel just fantastic about myself because he says I'm fantastic, what reason would I ever have to be independent, to try and find my source of self-approval in myself and things I've done? None.

Just saying: your T may like you very much, but not feel that it's therapeutic to tell you that. If that makes any sense.

Good luck and take care!

PS: Not that any of this excuses your T's lateness or even her response, but the desire for overt validation seems like a separate issue, and the above is just one possible way to think about it.

[Pennster]

One thing I do if we start late is to say "remember we started late!" when he says we have a few minutes left. He usually remembers anyway, but I would be upset if I got cheated out of any time at all.

But I know that might not always be easy to say...

[ilikecats]

I'm really sorry you have to deal with this. My T is always late too, and sometimes it makes me feel unimportant or disliked. In session, those feelings go away, but sometimes while I wait I start to feel nervous like she forgot about me or something. But it does help me feel better to know that since she sometimes goes longer with other clients, she would do the same for me if I needed it. And she has, twice. Plus she always gives me the full 45 minutes, regardless of when we started. If she cut our time short, that would be a deal breaker for me. I'm sorry you're feeling bad about the situation, and I'm sorry your T wasn't able to help you feel better about it. Hopefully things start to get better

[Permacultural]

Originally Posted by Chummy

But my T has 15 minutes between sessions. So she should be able to be on time. At her old workplace she was almost always on time. But since she works at this place she has been a few minutes late for most of my sessions. At her old workplace I think I might ran into other clients 3 or 4 times. At her new workplace I often run into other clients, usually because they stayed over time. It's not like I'm really early. I don't think I ever felt like I'm rushed out of session.

I don't know what changed.

I wonder if at the new place she has more clients, or clients with more severe difficulties? Maybe more red tape like a requirement for more detailed note writing? Therapy is such a battle against the clock at times. Just when we start getting into a real breakthrough moment, it's time to stop. Plus she might have to go to the bathroom in between sessions, or something personal.

[neverending]

Time doesn't have to be a matter of like or dislike at all. One time I was so jealous of all the time being spent one day on one patient and wanting that much attention for me too. But later on I found out that all that attention the patient was getting was because they were at the very verge of putting that patient in jail. Very recently someone else had a whole bunch of time given them because of their behavior but it ended up that everyone dealing with the situation was fed up with it by the time it ended. All that extra time spent had negative results and had nothing to do with the patient being given extra time because they were liked better. They weren't. It had to do with the situations.

[ChipperMonkey]

I think you need CBT to help reign in all these thoughts.

Mind reading.
Assuming the worst.
Etc.

[Chummy]

Originally Posted by Argonautomobile

I really identify with this. My T has never told me "you matter," "You're special," "I like you," in any very overt way. And I hate how much I want that from him. Here's how I started to think about it, and maybe it'll help you, too--

In a way, I'm grateful that T has never given me that kind of validation. I think it would be extremely addictive and make me dependent on his "approval," thus re-creating a lifelong dynamic where I need to find validation and approval from outside sources instead of finding it in myself. If I got to go in every week and feel just fantastic about myself because he says I'm fantastic, what reason would I ever have to be independent, to try and find my source of self-approval in myself and things I've done? None.

Just saying: your T may like you very much, but not feel that it's therapeutic to tell you that. If that makes any sense.

Good luck and take care!

PS: Not that any of this excuses your T's lateness or even her response, but the desire for overt validation seems like a separate issue, and the above is just one possible way to think about it.

Maybe that's what my T is thinking, that validation wont help me. I can understand that. I worry a lot about waht other people might think of me, and she knows that. She says that it doesn't really care what others think of me. It's about what I think of me. People all have different opinons and some will like me and some won't.

But it's not like I want to hear every week from T that she likes me. I just once want to hear what she really thinks of me. Especially since I worry so much that I'm a burden to her. A few months ago I've talked to her about being afraid she likes me less than her other clients. And I still worry. Yesterday I was in tears because I'm so insecure about what she thinks of me. That she likes me less than her other clients. It might have helped me if she would have said ''I do like you'' or ''I do think you're important'' or ''I care about you''. Not something like all my clients are the same. That's not the same as ''I like you'' or ''I don't think you're annoying''.
Now I'm still afraid she doesn't like me. Actually I'm even more afraid after I said all that yesterday.

[Chummy]

Originally Posted by ilikecats

I'm really sorry you have to deal with this. My T is always late too, and sometimes it makes me feel unimportant or disliked. In session, those feelings go away, but sometimes while I wait I start to feel nervous like she forgot about me or something. But it does help me feel better to know that since she sometimes goes longer with other clients, she would do the same for me if I needed it. And she has, twice. Plus she always gives me the full 45 minutes, regardless of when we started. If she cut our time short, that would be a deal breaker for me. I'm sorry you're feeling bad about the situation, and I'm sorry your T wasn't able to help you feel better about it. Hopefully things start to get better

That's what T also said, sometimes she goes longer with clients, but that she also have gone longer a few times with me. Which is true, but it has only been a few minutes. Not 10 minutes. Yesterday it was, but she started late with me. And she was on time with the client after me. And when she went longer than 10 minutes over time, she didn't had anyone after me.
And it's not like those other times we went over time was because I needed it. It was more that...I don't know...she just didn't ended in time? Because I remember one time when I had a hard time in session, we went a bit over time and she tried to get me calm and then said we had to quit because there was a client after me. And I had to fill something in and I did that in the waiting room and I saw that she got the other clients on time.
And this being late is only since a few months.

[Chummy]

Originally Posted by Permacultural

I wonder if at the new place she has more clients, or clients with more severe difficulties? Maybe more red tape like a requirement for more detailed note writing? Therapy is such a battle against the clock at times. Just when we start getting into a real breakthrough moment, it's time to stop. Plus she might have to go to the bathroom in between sessions, or something personal.

No, that's not it. This new place is a bit the same as her previous place. She works for a boss or whatever, works 4 days a week from 9 to 6 or something. They only take the number of clients they can handle, that's why there can be a waitinglist. They don't take clients who have severe difficulties. It's pretty much the same as her previous workplace.
And if she has to go to the bathroom, then I would see that. Because she needs to leave her rooom for that.
And it's almost every session that she's late. If it would only be 2-3 times, then I wouldn't be so upset about it.
And there are 15 minutes between sessions. Which are for note writing, bathroombreaks and whatever she needs to do.

[Chummy]

Originally Posted by ChipperMonkey

I think you need CBT to help reign in all these thoughts.

Mind reading.
Assuming the worst.
Etc.

I do this, mind reading and everything. I do that in a lot of situations. T knows that. We are working on it. And we use CBT with that.