Looking for Moral Support

People do not respond to aggression. Aggression puts up walls. Walls are NOT the same thing as boundaries.

You seem to keep trying to make everyone else responsible for your boundaries. That isn't how it works. You've said your peace. I expect everyone around you knows where you stand; they just don't agree with you. You can't MAKE other people respect you. You can't MAKE other people submit to you. You can't MAKE other people agree with you.

You are an adult. If you don't respect your family, you have the choice to change your expectations (sometimes we just have to accept that people are who they are and will not change). You have the option to disengage from them if that is what you choose.

You do NOT have the right to demand submission, to demand respect, to threaten to "bury your own mother in your own tank treads" as you put it. Your mother already knows you have a chip on your shoulder. You are beating a dead horse. You claim you want negotiation but NOTHING you say sounds like a desire for negotiation at all; it speaks to a need for dominance (which is VERY uncomfortable on this forum to keep reading). No one is going to help you do that. It isn't socially or theologically sound.

You don't get to tell people they are hypocrites and seek revenge and expect them to just accept that from you and submit to your revenge, and then expect them to reengage in a meaningful relationship with you. That's abusive. "Here. Let me bury you in my treads and demand you submit to my authority. And, oh yes, when I'm done, I expect you to reengage with me in relationship." That doesn't even make sense.

Is BHR a clinic or mental health provider in your area? If so, is there a way to see a private therapist instead? Some private therapists will take Medicaid, they just limit how many clients they will see who use it (reimbursement is very low).

You ask, "I can exert control by walking away from my family; should I?" Yes. It's a way of breaking their hold on you. It can be a phased approach--walk away for a period of time to establish yourself away from their influence, then re-enter their lives a bit at a time to see how it goes.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. I would look at it like an experiment. Try things out to see what feels effective and helpful to you. A therapist should be able to help with this, but again, I would look for one you get along with.

Also, the only type of negotiation I'm familiar with is called interest-based negotiation. It starts with agreements and common interests and builds a foundation of discussion on those values, eventually working toward the areas of disagreement. Negotiation doesn't work if it's a battle of both sides trying to overpower the other (war).

Good luck to you.

Point taken; tomorrow's Sunday. When she picks me up, tomorrow, I'll tell her I will no longer sit with her in church unless she agree to answer ten unspecified questions of my choosing in the presence of a third party. She may refuse to take me to church; I can live with that.

If she stands pat, there are other things, like forego birthday parties; it is a start.

Soo...find a shrink that favors medicare, and is also into negotiation, and see that the two of us get along?

...And, in the mean time, pursue boundaries, by walking away? Can do...

I guess that what angered me in the past was that I started aggressive, and telling shrinks I sought help, but shrinks could never convince me that we weren't just going in circles. I kept signaling flexibility, and they kept ignoring that. To me, it starts with authority, and obligation; shrinks kept talking about my attitude. Sorry, but authority trumps attitude.

If they had acknowledged my preogative, I'd have reciprocated, but they couldn't acknowledge where I came from at all.

Therapists are coming from a vastly different worldview than the approach you feel you require. I have had therapists try to do family therapy between me and my dad and it was an epic fail. In private the therapist would say I was the aggrieved party but once in the room between my dad and I the therapist plays Devils advocate. I felt betrayed by this approach. Therapists will challenge both parties involved fair or not. Rarely will a therapist openly take sides.

That doesn't phase me; as a mediator, your job is to try and steer the good ship Converse through stormy seas, and is seeking something to work with, same as your father is, thoughout this.

As one of the two disputants, I would focus on my mother, and not my therapist; I don't mind being challenged, just as long as it's a two-way street, because I'm challenging my mother;question is, can I keep my cool? If I can, eventually, the therapist will turn in my favor, but getting to that point...look, I've gotten burned twice in that model, but I can at least imagine why the shrinks did thus.

I set my boundary with my mother at church today, and she shrugged it off; I left church more furious at her than I've been in a while; anger is energy, though, so that isn't entirely a bad thing, I don't think. Still apathetic, no breakthrough, but less so.

As I push away, I want to reengage, though; I would like to send some messages, i.e. intermediaries, though; I feel isolated, and that's not healthy. I want options, and I want a way to communicate with her whilst not breaking my pressure on her. I could use some volunteers here online, though I will look for some messengers around my my home town.

I am thinking of ways to up the ante, too; I can avoid family get-togethers, including my birthday.

Now I think of it, I've sent my mother email; I could just resend via messenger, or else create new messages to send, thus. More options;
I feel better than an hour ago.

Consulted with a counselor, today; they can't help me get involved with confronting my family, but that's what I've chosen to do; questions, where and how do I go bout finding them? If the counselors could help me find confronters, that would be for the best.

The following is a message I intend to send a pastor I've been conferring with:

Dave. Upon conscious reflection, I intend to pursue my authority to hold my mother accountable for the greater good, regardless of whether you, or anyone else, dubs it "revenge." And if anyone does dispute my authority, Dave, I am more than prepared to justify.

Question is, Dave, are you prepared to help me? I want you as an ally, Dave; a friend to me, a friend to the truth.

That is what I want to say; what think ye all? Revisions?

It seems things can go maybe two ways - one she sees things your way; two she doesnt. Then what happens? What do YOU do then? And maybe you should just go ahead and choose the outcome YOU prefer and not make it dependent on what she says or thinks - just on what YOU want to do. Assuming that its legal and doesnt hurt anyone, of course!

Wise unaluna! Well said

Hm...maybe I should just have someone negotiate with my family on my behalf until I feel comfortable doing so on my own, again. I lay out parameters, and my agent and I go from there.

To my shrink: Look. I'm about to contact a church bishop, confronting him over not responding in over four months! Do you approve, or not? If I wrote a missive to my mother, explaining, and demanding she must start engaging my questions, do you approve or not?

If I took action, would you support me? If I decided to forego family get-togethers till my demands were met, would you applaud?

Or would you just laugh at me?

I just do not understand why you expect someone to "negotiate" for you (not sure what you are negotiating -- it sounds more like dictating your terms, take them or leave them). I don't understand why you are trying to involve your church bishop; that really isn't in their job description. He has much bigger responsibilities as bishop. Why not figure out what you need to do for yourself and take steps toward what you need without expecting other people to do that for you? This isn't anyone else's "battle" but your own. If you don't want to go to family gatherings, then don't go to family gatherings. You don't need anyone's permission or approval for that; you are an adult. You make the choices for your life and prepare to live with whatever the outcomes are of your decisions.

I wouldn't laugh at anyone's pain. Not yours not anyone's. I don't see how your approach could work but wishing you peace anyways
Edit ••••just saw this was directed towards a therapist.

What is my issue? I seem to take things very rigidly, in interpersonal relationships, and that seems to have stunted my ability to interact, with others. I guess I've felt the need to push away from others, because they ask me to, but that makes me reactive; when I try to push back, I get accused of being vengeful, but I don't see how to be assertive, and no one's showed me how to get what I want, rather than be criticized for any number of reasons.

I guess I want to go back to school, but I'm afraid I'll be stressed from more panic attacks, if try to hard. How do I get my needs met for a sense of control in my life?

Therapy. Life coaching. Something like that. I think it may be very useful for you. To have someone to help you navigate the vagaries inherent in social interactions.

I have been thinking that I mostly take exception to your wording, your phrasing... things like 'demands', 'submission', 'confrontation'. To me they sound war-like, violent and dangerous.

But I sense you don't really mean it to sound like that, and that you really *don't* have a violent intention. I wonder if underneath the phrasing you are using you just want what any one of us wants in life - to be heard, to be respected, and to be accepted. My understanding is that you have been hurt and you want to be validated. I think you are wanting peace, but not at the expense of yourself. And perhaps you also want to 'understand'? To not feel like an outsider?

(Just freaking ignore everything I am saying here if I am waaay off base, okay?!)

Annnd I am wondering if you really do want an ally / someone at your side, because you just don't get how this is all supposed to work. You know what you want but not how to get it, and know yourself well enough to know that you don't have the know-how to see this through in a way that will get you the outcome you are desiring.

I really don't think you will find someone willing to co-confront your family. Not on the terms you have laid down. Those terms are not really 'how things are done'. While those terms are supportive of you, they are potentially harmful for your mother, and most people will not choose to help someone harm another.

But as to what can be done... therapy, for you. To discuss and explore relationships, social interactions, boundaries, setting boundaries, finding your voice, your strength, your own conviction.... so that eventually you will feel strong enough and confident enough to discuss these things with your mother on your own. (or in the context of therapy.. .that can be done, as long as safety boundaries are put in place.)

Thoughts?

Finally--you're starting to comprehend my mixed signals!

Thank you.

Well, if I did confront on my own, I'd want more moral and emotional support than I am now getting.

Specifically: What can one Christian demand of another Christian?

Hm... my therapist, and I could, before family get-togethers, discuss what I want--and want to to do--at get-togethers and then work to negotiate what we want, in tandem. After every get-together, we can do post-mortem, discussing what went well, what didn't. That might work.

Agreeing that I was right in some areas to stand my ground helps encourage me to set boundaries; as is, I feel afraid to.

Am I a heel for wanting to set boundaries? I still feel like one.

In any case, I could list demands of my family I want to be recognized for, with my family.

In short, I just want my mother negotiated into recognizing that I have the prerogative to hold her accountable, both now, and in the past. Specifically, my demands are:

• A shared interpretation of key Scriptural verses.
• I have full right to cross examine any family member.
• I want to show Youtube things to my nieces and nephews (though their parents can selectively veto).

I'd like to have someone help me negotiate that enterprise, and I would also like help negotiating another project...

Near my family's property, there lies former marshland that was cutoff from the main swamp by merely a road, and I would like to negotiate with the city, and whoever else, to get a drainage pip inserted into the road, to make the place marshy, again. It means contacting the city, PUD, and whoever else.

I feel uncomfortable doing it by myself, but with others, I do want to try again. I feel like my boundaries have shriveled up, and I want to reset them, and be aggressive, but there's not been a lot of support for me setting lines with my family, and enforcing them.

There needs to be some solidarity, of where I can take a stand.

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Look; I use my boundaries offensively, because they have been so shredded, and so mangled. I want to see respect for my authority, and respect for me, and I don't see it. I want to staunch the wound, and I want it now--an answer, now. I want boundaries, too, because no one wants to define them.

Look--I have the authority to cross exam, and I want that recognized; it could be done aggreessively or ssertively, but I'm making a point, given how my autority has been trampled on. Solidarity with my anger over my aggrievement would be a good place to bond with me, but it hasn't yet been done.

I want some.

No one is laughing at you. You're clearly very serious about dealing with your family.

But here's a question: why do you need your shrink's approval? Approval is best when it comes from within. If someone hadn't responded to an important email for four months, I'd happily tell them off without getting anyone's approval. If you want to write your mother over her treatment of you, you don't need anyone's approval except your own.

As for support - support counts the most when it is someone the other person knows and respects. A church bishop's support would impress your mother. A shrink she doesn't know, not so much.

And another question, basically what unaluna said: what is Plan B? From what you have said of your mother I do not think she will start engaging your questions, validating your feelings, or allowing that you have any authority whatsoever in your relationship with her. So what comes next?

I would approve of making demands of my mother; the results wouldn't work, of course; if I sent her a letter excoriating her beliefs, would those here jest believing I have reason to be angry?

I guess it comes back to negotiation as war; I want to be actively pursuing it, and I want help, develop a gameplan, etc.

I am aggressive in pursuing boundaries because I want to make clear that I have be the authority, and authority doesn't need to be nice. I also fear my counselors will betray me, like my family did; that is why I'm trying to be so confrontative--to force the counselor support my authority; that is what I'm so insecure over.

If I trust my support on that, I wouldn't need to be so aggressive, would I?

I'm not enforcing my boundaries--full stop; whenever I do brandish them, I get passively criticized.

Look: I'm being aggressive pursuing my boundaries because I fear that I'm being rewarded for backing off, not standing my ground. As long as that's the case, why should I trust shrinks that do so?

If I start projects, sans help enforcing boundaries, and negotiating, I'll implode, and that's why I expect help; I have some I want to do now, but I've gotten little moral support, even.

That's why confronting my mother represents a bellwether; helping me confronting her is a rite of passage, and supporting and validating me doing so is a vote of confidence in both my logic, and morals. I am not an excuse, and whether or not it happened years ago, making orders you do not enforce is wrong. Is that overly harsh? Well, it is noting wouldn't;t ask of myself, and I'm just against sloppiness.

She taught me to take truth seriously, so if I'm harsh on her, then in large part, it was because she was harsh on me without apology.

That's why I'm doing this.

PS: the posting safety net's not working, for some reason; I lost multiple copies of this sent post--aggravation!

HOW DO I PROJECT BOUNDARIES? I seem to get nowhere, year, after year, and I'm sick of it; I've lost the spring in my step years ago, and I'm finding it hard to push myself out of bed to get a job, and I've recently gotten into a series of self defeating public blowups.

I in the end, keep retreating from others, because I fear them, and cannot control them, or myself, risking emotional exhaustion. Every time I try to move ahead, I seem get frustrated and fail, but see not how to break the pattern, or find a way ahead.

I don't feel anyconfidence going forward, and don't see any help in doing anything, like the following idea: There's a pice of land by the road by my family's property that used to be marshy, but got cut off from the main swamp by another road to a housing development, nearby. I'd like to insert within the road a drainage pipe re-connecting it to the bog proper, but lack the confidence to do so. With the right help, i.e., negotiating support, I would like to try, however.

There's nothing I really want to do, right now, and that is the issue; beyond that, given my learned helplessness, I don't rightly know what I can do...

I'm just so tired, wasting days.

Perhaps, I should just focus on getting a job; doing what I can control to get one.

How's that for a goal? Focus more, this time, on contacts, and informational interviews?

Can this help snap me from apathy, instead of suck me further in? I'm trying to be constructive, here, not destructive.

I'm going to ask this question, in fact, on Quora: How to Ask 150 People For a Job?

Reason is I've heard you can ask for pretty much anything, within a range of asking a mix of 150 people (assuming you're not too repetitive of how you ask).

I've basically decided to to follow that approach, now, to find a job: Ask 150 folks. I couldn't find that info, though, on Google, typing in you can find anything within asking 150 people, but am probably punching it wrong.

Here is my prospective spiel:

Hello--my name is Philip Brock Carpenter, and I am currently seeking a job, for which I was wondering if you either knew of one I could apply to, and if not, I was wondering if you at least knew of someone else I could ask for an informational interview. I may not get a job, but if in the process I at least developed some contacts, then at least we're gettin' somewhere...

Folks I can ask:
TESC
Ted Collins
David Morrison
Deffinbaughs
Paul Janssen

I found this
Forbes Welcome
I don't know what kind of work you are looking for but sometimes doing short term freelance work/contract work can lead to ft jobs. Sometimes volunteering can help you make connections too. Does your church have a job search support group?

Hm...well, I'm going to look, but I already did in a way that exhausted me, mentally and emotionally.

In any case, I've finally figured out what I want to do in life, and that is confront, or challenge, people with questions; my my shrinks will need to help me with that, because that is something I care for more about, than any job.

Christ ordered His followers to give to whoever asked, and I want answers; full stop; they're liars, cowards, an disingenuous; as to non-Christians, I hold 'em less strict, but I still like to challenge them.

Shrinks like to talk about how to take action, so next Tuesday, I can present this to her--a not-yet-sent message to my church bishop:

Look--I sent you a message I wanted you, or someone else, to send my mother, and nearly a year later, you still haven't responded. They say love be patient, but that doesn't mean open-ended.

I seek dialog to questions, Dave, and you have not been forthcoming.

To that end Dave, I must respectfully ask of you a deadline...specifically within the next month, or else draw some very unpleasant conclusions.

I also can send my mother another email, articulating my point of view. In short, I am pressuring the shrink by my actions to take a stand on my actions, and be forced to take a stand on them.

If this is truly what I like to do, then she should be encouraging, yes, and if not productive, then how can it be facilitated?

Now look here, shrink: I argue not simply because I'm angry, but because I like to brawl, and intend to keep on brawling to the end of my days, simply because I like doing it.

No, you don't have to approve for me to continue brawling, but it is your job, isn't it? I really want dialog with the folks I'm arguing with, and if they don't reply, I'll have no choice to move on to others, but the mission will remain the same--rapport and dialog with others I wish to converse with, and not simply getting a job, any old job.

If you could help make this desire constructive and not destructive, I'd be much obliged, but I'm not going to stop being aggressive as long as you, or others, want me to altogether give up on my boundaries.

Yes--I'm working on getting a job again, but shut up--as long as you show no support for my attacking others logically, i.e. doing what I love to do, I refuse to imbibe a drop o' praise for job hunting. Instead, if you really wish to feel appreciated by me, then support my attacking questions, but till then, do not bother.

Now, that is what I intend to say to her--I want dialog, with others, as equals; beyond that, there are others, I want to tell off. If she can just encourage my conclusions, instead of bashing "love and mercy" over my head, then we're off to good start, finally.

Action this day, plus a bit more tonight!

Looking for work IS exhausting draining and time consuming. I just spent six months in a job search that finally ended in a new job. But I am glad that I did it.
Change takes hard work and yes, flexibility. Flexibility does not mean giving up who you are. Doing things the same way over and over will only lead to frustration.

I guess my perspective is, the dialogue you are using with these letters is not in any way 'equal' - it is demanding, confrontational, and somewhat threatening. If I were to receive such a letter from you I would be all kind of 'hell, no!'.
Dialogue with equals involves respect, calmness, genuine enquiry and the awareness that although you may request something no one is obliged to owe you anything at all.