Looking for Moral Support

Well, I've started attacking, because it is the only way I know how to escape apathy; maybe my shrink can retool what Ii say in a way she can support, but I'm prepared to engage, and keep engaging, even if if there aren't results, just as long as it's what I want to do, which is what it seems to be; that's how to escape apathy, and that is what I'm doing.

I may want to stop attacking, if so, fine; what I really want is engagement of the people involved, but until then, I'll just keep screaming, I guess.

Well, I've been apathetic nearing a decade, so I am ready to try something different; I'm saying my message loud, though, and hopefully that'll lead to further enthusiasm, for living. I've been taking action, at least. I need to escape apathy; I've started asserting the truth as I see it, and now want it refined to better results. I can keep writing letters excoriating people, but I do want reconciliation.

Just where do I need flexibility to achieve my goals (passion) again?

Hm...maybe I ought just enumerate what i can demand of other Christians, just as what they can demand of me, starting with the ability to demand mutual cross-examination..

You confuse boundaries with going on the offensive. You seem to confuse demanding with negotiating. In all honesty if someone in my life wrote me a letter or spoke to me the way you are communicating to those around you I would have no tolerance for it. If anyone acted in such a way I personally would be looking at how to file a restraining order. I want to genuinely help but you don't seem to want to do anything differently than to demand things from people.
If you say your message loud and it turns people off and makes them turn away, what would you do then? Keep yelling into the wind ? Doesn't that just leave you lonely/alone? Surely you don't want that?

You can look for a job regardless if your mother admits her faults or not. You can try to escape apathy for doing job search and moving on. It is usually a waste of time trying to make others admit their faults. And best revenge is living well. Get your life in order and enjoy your life trying be the best you can be. Don't waste your life on trying to make others see things certain way plus demands never work

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I may be confusing things in large part because I'm trying to escape apathy/learned helplessness. I don't trust others, keep in mind, and I don't know how to enforce boundaries. I think it best if we started aggressive and turned assertive, but I don't trust people.

HOW, THOUGH, DO I OVERCOME APATHY?

Seriously. I haven't made a dent in apathy for nigh eight years, and am trying to do something, now. Resetting boundaries means letting others in, and others out; well, I'm trying to do precisely that.

Focusing on what Scripture allows and does not allow is a safe conduit to my aggression, sans hurting anyone, and also slakes my thirst for control, without any begging, or manipulation.

And, it also allows for assertiveness, once the rules of the road are once again established. In that context, I offer flexibility, but not before.

In other words, I'm channeling the high-end aggression of a trial lawyer, and not a serial killer.

I can tone down mah rhetoric, vow not to go postal, but my key focus will not change; I lack confidence in my boundaries, and I need to find a reason for it.

Basically, I'm trying to destroy the tormentative sayings of Jesus, playing in my head. I Jesus is a ***** then I'l just have to smash Christ for being so pathetically cruel to Christians.

I need resolution, because this is deterring me from setting up working boundaries.

I don't really get all this religious talk. I personally am not Christian. This forum is about therapy. There is religious forum I believe on PC.

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Actually it is a spirituality forum and specfic religous discussion like that is not allowed there either.

Sigh...I'm trying, in any case, religion or no, to set boundaries. I need a conduit with which to channel my aggression, and am still looking.

Hopefully, what I wave currently said, will make things clearer; conduit to channel constructively my aggression.

Stated by others:

Here's what Luce from Psych Central said:
I have been thinking that I mostly take exception to your wording, your phrasing... things like 'demands', 'submission', 'confrontation'. To me they sound war-like, violent and dangerous.*

But I sense you don't really mean it to sound like that, and that you really *don't* have a violent intention. I wonder if underneath the phrasing you are using you just want what any one of us wants in life - to be heard, to be respected, and to be accepted. My understanding is that you have been hurt and you want to be validated. I think you are wanting peace, but not at the expense of yourself. And perhaps you also want to 'understand'? To not feel like an outsider?*

(Just freaking ignore everything I am saying here if I am waaay off base, okay?!)*

Here's what Peaches100 from PsychCentral said:
You brought up a number of legitimate points and questions. I can see that you don't take this subject lightly. You've given it a great deal of thought. I can tell too that underneath what looks like a desire for revenge is a great deal of hurt.*

Now that I've read more of your posts, I can see that what may at first look like a cold, hard stance you are taking against your mom is not due to spite or hatred. You want to protect yourself from being hurt. Also, you are concerned about what appears to be inconsistency and/or misapplication of scriptures on her part. You feel the need to prove her wrong, both to validate your own feelings, and because you want her to do what is right.

I have yet to find traction, because I don't feel comfortable digging in, and when I do, it feels too shallow to gain traction.

I feel ashamed, awkward, and stupid--not empowered, and certainly not in focused control. I keep trying to ground and focus myslef, because I keep thinking I'll be shamed and guilt-tripped by New Testament Scripture--that's what I'll be attacked with, and I don't want to be.

That's pretty much what this is about; you're bothered by whatever you've given power in your life, and above family, it is Scripture.

To break free, but of what? Family? Faith? Both?

Those have big differences, and mostly, people are telling me not to move, but they at the same time say, "Move on!" Well, that means bridge-burning; I'm not against that, but that means resetting things.

Did not make it to the shrink's today; disappointing. That said, I'm pretty certain on what I want from my family, and that is control. I wish I had been able to run it by my shrink, but in any case, here is a draft email to my mother, I did yesterday:

Look, Mom: I'm focusing on using negotiation, as it says, here. I have an issue with trust, and if for instance, if I knew you were willing to speak up for me about Spider-Man with Chris, I would have done different, believe me.

I'd like to negotiate some things with Chris and Vic, and to that end, I would like you as my mouthpiece; it affords me emotional distance, that's why.

Victor; I want two things, from him, or for you. In the future, I want him to agree to set up the pinata line a day in advance, essentially; I'd even be willing to pay him five, ten dollars to do so, push to shove. I lost control of the operation, last time, and this is all to ensure there are no repeats.

What does Victor want in return for such a commitment?

Also, in the future, before the Grimms come, I'd like some pre-arranged spot for me to setup my Nintendo, no questions, no hassle.

This is what I want--in short, control; above all. I'm prepared to throw in the money as a sweetener, mind you; not as a starter. What are his reservations? Space, foremost, and I get it; what are the specifics? As to the parents, I am prepared to take full responsibility.

Okay; that's what I'm prepared to fight for; I haven't sent it, but that's where I'm drawing a line, and am hoping my mother can assist me.

But, should I send it?

No pyrotechnic lingo, no dredging up; just focusing on what the bottomline is for me, and preparing to walk if they refuse to acquiesce. I can think up a few other things, too, that I want concerning my birthday party, in September.

Okay--that is moving forward, at least; don't know how much my family cares, but at least I think this is what the literature on learned helplessness means when it says to be "selfish."

This is me reclaiming control of my life, or trying to--how'm I doing?

Howdy--well, I've finally found someone who's figured out what I've been seeking in confronting my family. This writer here, clearly gets what I seek:

I've been thinking about the difficult situation you are having with your mom and accumulating scriptures that I hope (will) aid you in your plan to confront her behaviors and treatment of you.

You brought up many angles that we could delve into, such as application of scripture, to what degree should a person be held responsible for wrong conduct versus when to forgive, how to understand apparent contradictions of scripture, etc. But it sounds like the most pressing issue for you right now is to confront your mom on her harmful behaviors.

Exactly! Not because I'm vengeful, not because I love dredging up the past, but because I care. Those who have been "helping" me just haven't been able to understand my motives, let alone assist in conveying them, and I read into this reluctance to validate my message as a black mark against my character.

Having a serious conversation with her about her negative behavior towards you, requesting that she treat you with the scriptural dignity you deserve, clearly communicating any boundaries are are putting into place, and letting her know how you will respond if she chooses to ignore your request(s) and boundaries (is key). In addition, it sounds like you want to point out the inconsistencies in her application of Bible principles, with an appeal to do what is right in God's eyes. Does this sound about right?

Yes; I seek witnesses to help me focus on the key issues, as I see it.

[COLOR="Navy"]OK. So now the hardest part...HOW?COLOR]

With witnesses, like I've ever said.

I'm glad you've found someone who understands you and who you feel like can help you. Good luck.

Well, I am just seeking someone that can reword my demands, say them differently, but at the same time agree.

I'm still awaiting a therapist to help me do this, but I've greater confidence that I'm being heard, and will be heard.

My apologies; I would have replied sooner, but I had trouble with my Chrome account.

In any case, my game plan, going forward, is this: I intend to send messages via my BHR therapist (as opposed to my BHR counselor--big difference) endorsed by her, and expressing my anger, reasons, and ways for moving forward. I intend to confront, in particular, my mother, the bishop, and a local elder, making things clear, also desiring to start a conversation beginning with mutual respect for principle, and establish boundaries.

I look forward to shoot straight, again, and be clear again, meaning just what I say; I've been too vague, too imprecise, and with help and support, I am now correcting for it.

I anticipate, which is a blame good feeling.

(By the way...I'm having a hard time sending out replies, and them not being automatically stored...this forum was great for a while, but now it's giving me trouble...anybody know what I mean...?)

Saw a new counselor, today, outside of BHR; I actually thought it went well.

Also I had dopamine chills; I also did some unexpected, stuff on impulse for myself too.

Thoughts? Am I doing what I should do, to escape apathy?

Hm...I think I nrrd to negotiate with my family. Everyone, based on what I've said on this thread...

1. What should I ask for, and...
2. How ought I ask?

Having a job is a great way to cure apathy IMHO. And basic motivation to get a job is having to eat and needing place to live. If you don't work who pays your bills? Are you on disability?

I don't think negotiating with ones family especially if they are toxic is going to help with apathy

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I've tried to get a job, but I don't feel very motivated by that goal; this week I interviewed, and my efforts to be hired by Goodwill failed, but I just didn't get much motivation looking for a job; it seems more trouble than it's worth. Confronting my family motivates, and thus, I'm pursuing it, because it motivates, apparently.

I'm trying to focus on what I can control, and finally elude nine years' apathy; that makes me want to kick myself, hate myself, and despise myself; if I was wrong, then I am a worm--she was wrong to disrespect me, and therefore, I can, do, and should respect myself.

If I'm a failure, why should I try? I'm not stopping, but I want to see a new vector for success, with my family, or at least a way for me to claim victory, through therapy, or whatever.

I currently see no way,and there's been little encouragement to do so, I might add. I'd like to find a way to claim victory, but I haven't found it, and the gorilla weighs on me whilst grunting like a broken record, to boot.

I'll break free on my own terms; otherwise, I'll never break free, and that means cooperating with me in confronting and rebuking others.

I am confused. If you don't work who pays the bills? If your family does isn't that motivation to break free from needing them?

I live by myself, but they're still nearby.

Look; I feel shame, but since I've taken responsibility for my feelings, and repeatedly claimed that I do not feel sorry for attacking my family (and meaning it) my has at least expanded, and not collapsed in on itself, like usual.

I feel calmer, less guilty, but it''s not a breakthrough, really; I still fear being shamed, and am less than confident.

They say in shame you need to let go of your sense of control, or whatever that means, but that has always meant letting go of honor. Yes, I feel attached, alright, but if I'm going to "let go," I feel zero support, and validation, for my honor, and this a key.

I'm simply not ashamed for seeking support to confront my family; somebody disagrees, then I'd like to see his reasons for it. I want to begin a dialog, and see if you don't reach the same conclusions I do; contact the people I have issue with, and see if you do don't reach the same conclusions about my family that I have.

Let's reach conclusions about Scripture, and apply them. (I'm talking to myself, but not quite.)

Basically, I'm feeling the need to confront my shame, to externalize and destroy, via some outward act, per the dictates of my conscience, but I've found little help of finding a suitable way to do so, to restore honor to my soul. In short, I expect the the shrink to work with, and approve of me shaming and dishonoring my family in an honorable, and ritualistic manner, if nothing else; confronting and claiming honor needs to be a key part of my life, with my therapist facilitating that journey. I can focus on getting a job, but I expect support; if the support isn't active, then the cheers over my rebuking my mother, dishonoring her like I should, need to be blame deafening.

Any Ideas?

You keep talking about scripture. How about, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us? The power is within you.

I really don't understand how having a job is more trouble than it's worth. Having a job isn't a luxury, it's a necessity for most people. I really don't understand not wanting to work but wanting to spend your time figuring how to confront your family. You can't change people and is generally a waste of time.

I really don't understand how do you expect your therapist to support you when you shame and dishonor people (in ritualistic manner??? What do you mean?)

What do you mean you expect support? From whom? You are a grown person responsible for your own life.

I doubt you'll ever find a t who would recommend you shame or attack your family.

Do you see a psychiatrist in addition to a therapist?

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I also had to add that some things you want to confront family about seems rather unimportant IMHO in a big scheme of things and not worth to get stressed out. You want them to set up a piñata certain way? Why do you need a piñata at your age? You are upset they didn't set up place for you to play Nintendo? I am confused

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Agreed. Seems like a lot of cherry picking of scripture to suit your argument and gripe with your family rather than working with the entirety of the scriptural message. I would hope your religious leaders would point that out to you.

Well, I have letters I'm ready to send; I just want to gauge the support of others, first; I want moral support for the journey. As is, I fear my ego'll contract, and that won't be good.

When I go through life, I need to be able to engage on equal terms, but when people say "forgive," it means "be a pushover."

It weighs me down, that sense of inferiority.

(I wrote the above on an unused thread, basically; I hope quoting myself is alright.)

Then address the authority, thing; you level the charge of ignoring grace, I charge you with circumventing His harshness.

I f you say I should forgive, then you must first reckon with my prerogative to press charges; I expect you to empathize with my guilt wrongly pressed on me for pressing charges, too.

Part of my spiral came from role confusion, so I expect you to clarify what I can demand (harsh, ain't it) of my mother, as well as what she can demand of me, push to shove.

Unwillingness to draw red lines is what I despise, keep in mind. Let's establish rules, and keep them--if you don't, you're a dog.

Empathize with my trail, why don't you? I may be contolling, but explicitly blurring what can 'n can't be controlled isn't helpful--it generates suspicion.

No, just a counselor; a therapist I'm gonna see early next month.

I'm an uncle; it's about my nieces and nephews. Look; forgiveness is blurring the issue. I want them to hate me, if need be, capice?

If I "forgave," I'd hate myself; been there, done that. Instead, work out boundaries, and responsibilities.

If you think I'm being stupid, just talk to my mother; or, encourage me to dig deeper, and the best way to do that is to throw out working conclusions.


Look; I angry, and fear that "forgiveness" is a codeword for control. Disbelieve?

Try me; I genuinely fear being controlled, and that is key; I want to trust , and we need to get to the issue of duty, and responsibilty; who has right of way? When?

Forgiveness never resolves these issues; it's simply a way to sweep them under the table.

I can't control any thing, I dhouldn't try to, and I only get approved of when I give up.

That's what I'm thinking! Do you you how I'm so frustrated, with that monologue running through my head?

[B]You want me to "move forward," but all the same, want me to take responsibility for everyone around me, but I refuse! I'm not responsibile for others, but everytime there's a conflict, rest assured, I'm wrong! I am wrong, and will always be wrong, and do you know why? Because you haven't even acknowledged my prerogative to hold my mother accountable!

Look; if you're not gonna help me confront my family, then do i need to pick fights just to come back to the same issue? It's blurred boundaries, and if evasion is the answer, and I'm to blame, I should never stick my neck out, and know that no one will or should, watch my back, as it gets stabbed.

You see? Ireally dont know how to negotiate, and al you're telling me is, "Be more of a doormat!!!"

No. Stop telling me to do this. Stop encouraging apathy; help me negotiate, standing for my core values.

For the record, of cherry picking, one pastor, Glen, admitted my logic was "brilliant," but candidly refused to admit it to my mother; to point, he said my thinking brilliant right after I'd lambasted him in the strongest manner possible within the presence of our head elder, even.

Another pastor agreed with my theology, but demurs at confrontation. As from my bishop? He calls my writing "kind of amazing."

If you really wish to dig into my logic, I only say...

"Bring it."