Is therapy for “attachment disorders” in adults bogus?

Sounds like your T is OK. That's great. From my experience, many are not. The problem I had, like some others, is how could I have known that in advance? Even though I may be better at doing that kind of thing now, I know that I didn't have a clue at the time. And didn't know how to get one. One of the reasons I felt and thought I needed some help.

My last T said that she became a therapist because she "wanted to help people." Some of that may be true but I now feel that a lot was because she wanted an image of herself as someone who helped people. There were several occasions, near the rupture with no repair, when she just didn't seem to see me as a person at all. Not sure, then, that she ever did.

Maybe she didn't need me to "worship" her exactly but certainly to "look up to her" as someone who could help me. And when she wasn't helping, and I couldn't tell her how to help, then it just fell apart. Not a pleasant, maybe it's time now to discuss termination. I still had some issues, I thought, and she apparently did to. But she COULDN'T help apparently and it seemed like she just couldn't admit that to herself or to me. Very, very painful for me although it's getting better somewhat.

Yeah, I think that's a problem, too. And yet psychology TRYING to be a science gives psychotherapy, too, an "aura" of scientific legitimacy that isn't really there.

Fell for it myself, though, despite knowing that. I was desperate and desperate people do desperate things sometimes.

(Despite that, I think psychology CAN be a legitimate science someday and I spent a lot of years in graduate school trying to work on a way to help with that.)

I don't doubt that it can be, one day. Look at how far we have come from the days of the witch doctor. How little we knew of the body in those days reminds me of where we are at now with the understanding of the mind. We are a little further on maybe but nowhere near where we may be one day.

Guilloche,
Thank you for the link and for the kind words.

BudFox,
I want to say up front that my husband has been in the hospital for five days with heart problems (he's out of danger butl needs a couple more days before coming home) so I am worn out and probably more reactive than I would normally be, so I'm trying to watch my tone.

But I have to ask, did you read anything on my blog before passing judgement on the effectiveness of my therapy or the nature of my relationship with my therapist? Knowing very little to nothing about me or my therapist, you declared my therapy bogus and my relationship enmeshed, neither was true.

I would not call what I went through "Attachment Therapy" just for the record. My T was originally trained in CBT, but has practiced for over 40 years and has a very eclectic approach to therapy although I would probably classify it as psychodynamic. Attachment theory (first put forth by Bowlby in the 50s and tested and researched by Mary Main in the 60s) was very important to both my understanding my own behavior and knowing I could heal. My T acted an an attachment figure. Not a parent. He held steady and allowed me to work through my developmental issues. Yes, I did have extensive outside contact as he believed you could not predict when you would need an attachment figure, but it was simply to provide reassurance about the connection. I usually only contacted him once between weekly sessions and our phone calls were under two minutes. The most I ever contacted him between sessions was 3 times during a particularly difficult crisis. We also very rarely did any processing during phone calls or emails. Ironically enough, knowing I could contact him at any time, meant I needed to do so less. I very much agree with BayBrony that it was the furthest thing from enmeshment. My T has extremely clear boundaries, hence my nickname of Boundary Ninja, and actually taught me what a boundaried relationship looked like. He also took his responsibility towards me very seriously and was committed to NOT needing me so as to maintain the necessary detachment. If I was serving his ego needs there was never any sign of it.

I have been able to move from an insecure attachment to a secure attachment through working with him. In fact the last time I contacted him outside of session aside from scheduling changes has been at least a year. it has been slow, difficult work especially as I had to dig deeply into some very painful issues, but have appreciated that my T was very steady, consistent and dependable while being willing to walk into some very painful places with me. It is difficult work for both the client and the therapist, as I think that many of the feelings and unmet needs of childhood coming roaring back with an intensity not really suitable for an adult (which is why I believe truly healing these kinds of deep attachment relationships need to take place in therapy because the intensity and level of need are not really appropriate to an adult relationship. The T needs the boundaries to protect them from being burnt out by the client. And not all therapist's should offer outside contact. My T was very comfortable setting his boundaries and could maintain outside contact without wearing himself out. Other T's might need more space away from their clients which is totally legitimate). I think it also takes a strong T who understand what it is he can and cannot provide. Some of the needs which arise are impossible to fulfill and a therapist cannot believe or hold out the promise to the client that they can do something that is impossible to do. Some things have to be mourned as losses and the T must have the strength to say a consistent, compassionate "no" in the face of terrible pain. I have seen a LOT of therapist's screw up this kind of work by not being aware of what they could actually give, overcommitting, then burning out and abandoning the client, which only adds another trauma over top of the existing trauma. But when done correctly, with a client willing to face the pain and do the work, I think this kind of work leads to very deep healing. You cannot heal to the point that you function the way someone who had "good enough" parents does, but you can heal to the point that you are no longer a prisoner of your trauma and have learned to have more intimate fulfilling relationships and to risk more to live a fuller life. At least that has been true for me. I would urge you to read more of my blog (especially the posts Disorganized Attachment or Why You Think You're Crazy But You're Not, Therapy isn't enough, and How to Fill the Void). I would also highly recommend the books General Theory of Love by Thomas Lewis et al and Attachment in Psychotherapy by David Wallin. Looking into the work of John Briere and Dr. Bessel Van der Kolk. Van der Kolk has done a tremendous amount of important research into trauma. Thanks, I hope I have been respectful while expressing my disagreement with you.

AG

Perhaps a difference then is whether a therapist has the ability to keep the need to have their egos stroked more to themselves or not. I believe therapists do get ego needs met through being adored by clients. I think most professionals and even most people do. When one reads their blogs, or goes to their conferences or reads their professional journals-sometimes they even admit it. They are not super humans who are somehow above being flattered etc by such things. Whether it has bearing on how they interact with clients may differ, and how conscious they are of it and I think that is where the difference of experience may enter the picture.

I just wanted to agree with AG saying that the intensity of these needs are just not suited to an adult relationship. I am going through a period right now where I am dealing with some very ugly childhood abuse stuff
I want my T CONSTANTLY. If I was projecting these needs on any regular relationship I'd destroy it ( been there, done that)
My T has looser boundaries than AG's but still, her ability yo hold boundaries is what keeps the relationship able to absorb the tsunami like impact of my childhood needs. We've talked over and over about what she can and can not do and she doesn't try to do more than she can. The repeated definition of boundaries is what let's me say " J loves me. She WILL return my text with 100% certainty in the next 24 hrs. I don't need to text her again because I know that and I know she will always do what she says she will"
And she DOES always do what she says she will because she's set boundaries in line with her abilities. And the ability to really TRUST someone will be there is something that took me 40 years to develop.

My T has repeatedly talked to me about how hard it is at times to not give me what I want instead of what she knows she can
For example, with me she can't get into the habit of extending session times unless I am in a serious crisis
Because 1. I always want to stay longer 2. Then it sets up a pattern where I feel rejected when she doesn't do it. And then what happens to her schedule? And the person after me?. My sessions only get extended if Im dissociated or crying hysterically ( a couple times a year, max)
But she loves me and HATES sending me away when I am clinging to her like a child, especially if I am very upset. She tells me how easy and rewarding it would be to give me more time. I'd be happy and appreciative and comforted, she'd feel good-- but its not good for me ( I need something predictable) or for US ( how long before she can't handle the stress of dealing with the next upset client etc)

My T actually spends a lot of time RESISTING the urge to give me immediate comfort that would reward her, in order to hold a stable frame for me and help me grow. We talk about this, as a way of processing my sometimes intense feelings of rejection. I'll ask her things like "is it hard or easy to end the session when I'm crying and upset and want to stay?" And we talk about it honestly at length.

Its seriously so far from enmeshment. Its really the healthiest relationship I've ever had.

Also, AG, your blog really helped me through some things, so thank you!

This thread is very thought provoking with lots of insightful posts. It really got me thinking and questioning my opinions on the topic, in particular what I was saying earlier that working on attachment issues for adults might be more efficient in the context of a mutual, safe, intimate relationship. Yes, depending on the specific individual issues, I can easily see how and why some of these things are not suitable to develop well in an "ordinary" adult relationship and might become very destructive on both parties. I had experienced the destructiveness myself... and instead of trying to resolve it, my habitual response is to step out of it and move on... this tendency also manifests in my therapies, not surprisingly. It tends to be that the first 5-6 months of therapy is very exciting and apparently progressive for me, then it reaches a phase when it feels stuck and I get these urges to react quite aggressively and get into conflicts... then a strong motivation to just flee and leave it behind. I am actually just reaching a phase like this with my current T, whom I consider a very good T in many ways with excellent, consistent and realistic boundaries. The recent feelings and reactions is definitely not coming from him but from me. I did not originally go to see him to work on relationship stuff or attachment issues but I do notice that he has an interest of doing this with me. I guess many therapists like to work on relationships but it is really not hard for anyone to recognize I have issues with attachment. So sometimes he gently encourages me, but so far I have never let it go anywhere far and deep.

So in addition to what was mentioned, that the therapist must have a high level of self awareness and ability to remain focused on the client in a consistent and stable way over a long period of time, I think it is equally critical that the client has the interest and willingness to work on these things. I feel that for me, the barrier is the latter. Of course this way it won't work as I do not engage sufficiently and do not let him access the problematic areas in me. Well, I am actually quite open to discuss these things in depth with the therapist, but not too open to engage emotionally, if that makes sense. I feel that I am highly aware of these patterns but would need to make a real serious effort to do it differently and in the longer run... and I feel this is upon me, the therapist cannot make the decision and cannot get me involved beyond what I am willing, no matter how good they are.

The idea that you could use an intimate non professional adult relationship to work through attachment issues to me communicates a fundamental confusion as to what attachment issues ARE.

Since I see the issues confused on PC a lot, I just wanted to clarify that attachment issues are NOT the same as relationship issues. Its common to have issued In intimate relationships from family patterns, childhood experiences etc. Attachment gets to just that-- the very root or ability to create a safe, stable connection with another human. This includes object permanence ie the ability to believe someone is still there and still loves you even when they are not around, the ability to distinguish self vs other and your own needs vs other needs, and the ability to react to other people as potentially loving/nurturing as opposed to fundamentally dangerous

. As a comparison ( don't be offended by the comparison to animals as I am including myself in this comparison) people with relationship issues are like normal healthy dogs who were not taught appropriate rules and so do inappropriate things for society like pee on walls. People with attachment issues ( I include myself here) are like dogs kept in a puppy mill cage their whole lives. Its not that we don't know how to behave in a house. Its that the whole experience of being in a house at all is terrifying and overwhelming.....

These are emotional skills one usually gains as a toddler. There are fundamental issues with imposing these needs on regular relationships, even spousal ones. The NEED I feel as I'm dealing with this is incredible. Some days the stuffed otter my T gave me goes to work with me. Even my spouse I can't cling to like that.

Never mind that it was extremely unlike me to actually get in a relationship with a halfway healthy person like my wife. Nearly all my relationships prior to.therapy were abusive , codependent, or mutually destructive in some way. Generally most people with attachment issues struggle mightily to have even one safe healthy relationship

I'm not always sure we are all talking about the same thing.

I agree.

I found it thought provoking to think that my relationship with my H may have helped me. He has been a constant loving presence in my life since we met. At times I have expressed unhappiness at our relationship and been cross about things, mainly at times of stress. He's always been constant though. He is someone that I'm truly myself with. He's the only person I ever express anger to. We also have a lot of fun together. Maybe this has been healing for me.

I wouldn't say it's totally bogus, but neither is it a cure all ... Attachment Disorders are real and vary in degree from person to person ... My therapist has provided me with some good information and insight that's been helpful, but I've still got a lot of work to do and it may very well be that I'll never be able to trust another human being well enough to get overly close or intimate with someone ever again ... And, that's okay too ... At least I can see the why of it now whereas before I couldn't even fathom its source nor the reason behind it ... I really like how my current therapist works with me, allowing me to come and go as needed ... I'll do some work, take a break, then come back and do some more work ... She's okay with that while many therapists are not, and those are the ones that concern me!

Sincerely,
Pfrog!

AG: lot of assumptions in there. Yes, have read some of your blog in the past. I did not know you were a member of this forum, otherwise would not have made the enmeshment comment. I did not call your therapy bogus.

You seem to be assuming I am critical and skeptical out of ignorance, and need an education. I've read quite a bit about attachment theory, trauma, and therapy. Have read Van der Kolk's main book. I've also experienced attachment in therapy firsthand, and had it implode traumatically. Assuming people with a contrary point of view just need to be coached in how to "do the work"… it's not a good look. Reminds me of the way therapists deflect criticism.

With all due respect, I find that people whose therapy attachment is beneficial, or just enduring, tend to grab the moral high ground. It's great that your therapy is helping and it's great that you write about it in your blog. But there are many people whose therapy goes horribly wrong and devastates them, possibly haunting them for the rest of their life. They might not have a blog or other means to share their story, and might feel guilty or shameful for discussing such a failure, in part because the system blame its victims compulsively. And these stories are not so palatable. Leaves a bad taste. Strange as it may seem, these people might be well-informed, self-aware, level-headed, and hard-working.

I kinda see it the other way. I find the idea that any sort of issue, even the direst trauma, requires enlisting a total stranger to be disturbing or odd. Wouldn't have thought so a couple years ago. Lot of cultural conditioning to work through. I just don't care for the idea that I am not in charge of my own healing.

I don't see how there can possibly be anything more healing or therapeutic than a real world intimate relationship between two self-aware people who are committed to mutual growth. Intimate relationships can be very destructive, but so can therapy relationships. I'd rather take my chances with someone whose commitment and investment is closer to my own. Plus, no cash required.

For me though, the fact I can't see it or that it does not work for me in that fashion does not mean I don't believe others who say it helped them. Both of those ideas can exist for me.

Sure, same here. What I am objecting to or countering is not the idea that therapy can be helpful, it's the idea that therapy is compulsory.

That's fine. If you can get it. If you can do that. Not everyone can.

I haven't dated in ~20 years. I work from home, alone. Most of my friends have moved away, and I have no one that I can call up when things are going wrong in my life, no one that I can reasonably expect to be there for me.

For some people, paying a professional to help them is not just worth it, but necessary.

For some people, it's MORE valuable to have someone that's NOT part of your life, and that ISN'T directly affected by your decisions to get help from. If your spouse is making you feel incompetent and being emotionally abusive, it's not likely that you'll be able to solve that within the relationship. You may not even be able to see it without someone else pointing it out. And, sure, that someone else might be a friend or family member, but many people won't/can't hear that from someone that close to them, because the relationship gets in the way. (For example, imagine your mom telling you that your spouse is not good enough for you - I think that few people would take that seriously, most would roll their eyes and think that's just mom interfering.)

I *get* that there are bad therapists out there, and honestly, I think the number of therapists that are truly qualified to do really deep work (like attachment work, or trauma work) is very very small. I've had tons of crappy therapy experiences. I've been lied to, kicked out (at a really rough time for me), and had one therapist *cry* because she felt like she wasn't able to help me.

But, that doesn't mean that therapy as a whole is useless, or that all therapists are bad.

There seem to be plenty of people with less deep issues, that don't need therapists that are superstars. I had a friend with anxiety issues. She picked someone on her insurance, went, got a workbook, worked through it with the therapist, felt better, and stopped. There seem to be a lot of people like this! We (on PsychCentral) are probably NOT the norm!

Some people really, truly *need* therapy (and I've been there). People struggling with suicidal feelings, unrelenting depression, and self-harm urges. I think that dismissing all therapy as unnecessary is potentially harmful to these people. These are things that go far beyond what family and friends can help us with. I've been there, and I've scared people away when I really needed them to stay and be steady.

I don't have an answer though. I agree, I don't know how you can possibly tell early on whether a therapist is a) skilled enough to help and b) stable enough with their own stuff to stick it out, and not give up on you.

Attachment Girl - You probably won't see this, but I wanted to say thank you for stopping by, and I hope that your husband has a quick recovery. You and he are in my thoughts.

Here Today - This is a genuine question, but feel free to tell me to back off if it's too much... I remember that you were, at one point, pretty happy with your therapist. It seemed like you had gotten a lot of good out of therapy, that it had been helpful, and that you were nearing a good ending point. It sounded like (unless I misunderstood) you felt like you had done a lot of work towards recovering, and were feeling ready to take what you had learned and to go use it in the world.

Did the recent rupture really undo all that? When you talk now, it sounds like you got nothing of value out of therapy - did the rupture make the previous good work disappear?

I feel as if doing this work with a T, my T, is the only real way forward. I cannot do this with anyone else. Like literally cannot. She has time, because I pay for it, to sit and wait for me to get there. She has skills that are required to think outside of the box to help me communicate. She is consistent because she understands the importance of it that most regular people don't. She doesn't get mad at me critising her or pushing her away. She accepts and listens to everything I have to say, things that would cause other people to run a mile. She is there time and time again even when I 'mess up', which is common in my eyes because this is all new to me. She has never made me feel like I have messed up, but in any other relationship I know I would feel this way. Working with her is helping me in my other relationships slightly, and I only see that increasing. I have said things to people that I could never have imagined myself saying, I have been doing things that I could never have imagined myself doing and I am feeling things that I could never have imagined myself feeling.

Over my lifetime, I have been helped in a bunch of ways. AA was amazingly helpful in my early 20s. So was the couples group that came with h's inpatient treatment for addiction. We learned really basic stuff there, but it made a huge difference in our relationship and has been the foundation for 29 years of marriage (and sobriety). A peer led woman's group for alcoholics and codependents was the next step in my journey, and it too was greatly helpful. 10 years into marriage, we saw a marriage counselor. She was helpful. And I saw a t briefly for post partum depression. At 20 years h wanted to go back to couples counseling and we did. We were ready to terminate when h brought something up and we decided to do some individual work. I don't know what would have happened if we had quit at that time. I was doing ok.

A traumatic incident in my life, some heavy denial and accompanying meanness on h's part regarding an addiction, a near fatal illness that no one could diagnose, and t1 telling me it would be OK to let young parts speak up when I knew that would be a bad idea...and I fell apart.

Ex t told me that I would have fallen apart regardless. I don't know if that is true, but he has a lot of experience with people with DID.

5 years later, and finally doing better. H has been a rock thru all of this but there is no way he could have helped me heal the way ts have. I am still mightily attached to t1, but it's gotten better. It scares me to think about terminating with him. T2 and 3 are women, so no danger of me getting too attached there. I think I will go to the grave with distrust of women.

So, yeah. For me, short term skill based t has been very helpful. AA and peers have been very helpful. A t that has encouraged me to and depend, well, for a while not helpful. Ex t that announced retirement in mid-attachment very unhelpful and retraumatising. T2 good
for stability and doing EMDR, helpful with no big attachment on my part. Ready to quit with her. T3 who to.d me at the start that there would be no attaching, that she had skills that would help me but no guarantees that she would be around long term, very helpful. Long term, stable support from h who gets a lot of my issues, very helpful.

All that to say that I think that most of the things mentioned so far have been helpful for me in recovering from my attachment issues. I don't think that just one of them Would have sufficed. And I think that there have been times in my life where I just wasn't ready to deal with some of my stuff.

Recovery is a weird thing. I think there are different paths, some work better for some people than others. Some of us need more than one path.

I have just gone a full week with no contact with any of my ts. Today, that feels amazing.

Who dismissed all therapy?

Also context is important. My response was to another post that asserted quite forcefully that attachment issues can only be worked through with a therapist. That suggests that certain people are doomed to misery and despair if they can't afford therapy, can't find the elusive good fit, if they are terminated prematurely, or otherwise prevented from "doing the work". Their personal development will be forever stalled until they hire a stranger to release them from their personal prison. I get it, therapy can be helpful even life saving. I'm in dire straights myself, i know what's like to feel out of options. But c'mon.

See I feel VERY in charge of my own healing. My T has resources I need, but its still MY work and path.
I'm not saying other relationships don't help but at least in my case, the crushing need I've experienced has destroyed several very important relationships.

My marriage has survived 17 yrs because my trauma split my child, in need of mothering self and my sexual.self almost completely. When I am experiencing romance or desire, the child self is locked up.tightly.

My child-need never comes out in full force with my wife. This splitting will probably be one of the last things I manage to heal.

That's not all bad as it allowed our relationship to flourish separate from those child needs. I still have done lots of dysfunctional stuff but I don't collapse in tears because she'll be gone for a day.

My friendship /mentor relationships where those needs are triggered (,pre therapy at least) were mostly destroyed.

How do you heal in a relationship when you can't stop destroying it????

That is why I need a T. I can't destroy her because she know how to keep that from happening.

That's where your theory falls apart for me. I know myself, pre attachment therapy, was unable to sustain healthy relationships AND work on my issues. I either blocked out the issues or destroyed the relationship.

That's why I question whether we are even talking about the same thing. Most people I have spoken too with attachment trauma have a similar history. I don't see how an intimate relationship can be the answer when my trauma prevents me fro sustaining one.

ETA: that's the thing. Attachment issues are toddler level stuff and I can act like a toddler ( well, not so much anymore but I certainly did before therapy). Crying because someone is leaving me for a day. Needing constant reassurance and contact and nurturing.
Most adults don't want to be friends with toddlers because they act like toddlers
My T, on the other hand, can take it.

I agree. I also think depending on a therapist or trusting a therapist is very unsafe because they can just drop you at any moment for any reason or no reason and then what? I will never trust a therapist again or anyone for that matter. It's not safe at all.

Budfox,

Thanks for your reply and please accept my apologies for misunderstanding what you meant and making assumptions about your level of knowledge. I think I discounted your experience and it was not my intention to imply that you just didn't understand. I felt like my experience was being discounted and do not fail to see the irony of me discounting yours. As I said in my first post, I realized that my present life circumstances have probably made me more reactive. I know I felt pretty defensive when I read your enmeshment comment, probably because so many of my relationships WERE enmeshed. My husband and I had to do a tremendous amount of work to disengage and reconnect in a healthy manner.

I do not believe I was attempting to grab the moral high ground. I certainly do not see myself as someone on high ground, I struggle with pain and confusion, and am possibly the slowest therapy client on earth. I also do NOT believe that therapy is for everyone (it is not useful for some and as you have experienced, especially with the wrong therapist can be quite damaging) nor do I believe that my healing path is right for everyone else. Each person is unique and how they heal is unique, including whether they chose to include therapy as part of that healing. I think because it has worked so well for me, I do tend to be a strong proponent but I would not want to force it on anyone. I also truly believe I have no right to tell anyone else how far or how deep to go in their healing. Healing from long term trauma is breathtakingly painful and oftentimes overwhelming. Facing that kind of pain is not a decision I would feel like I had any right to make for another person. I share my experience in the hope that it might be an aid to someone struggling, not to say someone has to do exactly what I did or that it would be the right thing for them to do.

I also want to be clear that never would I say that a failure in therapy is always the fault of the client. In fact, in my experience, it is more often the fault of an inexperienced or incompetent therapist. Part of the reason I write what I do is that I believe my therapist provides a model that should be emulated. Too many therapists do not understand either boundaries or their own limitations and therefore make promises that they can not fulfill, and abandon and damage their clients, sometimes beyond the hope of healing. It is already intensely difficult for someone deeply hurt in relationship, especially with early caregivers, to risk trusting and becoming vulnerable. It is virtually impossible once they experience that kind of betrayal again. I have had a front seat to too many people damaged in this way, and seen the depth of pain that is caused to ever point a finger of blame to someone hurt so badly, through no fault of their own. In fact, in most of the cases I am familar with, the client was doing exactly what they were supposed to be doing, opening up and being honest about their feelings and who they were. As was the case with their parents, they deserved so much better than they got. After seeing that kind of failure happen, I started qualifying my advice to be open with your therapist. I suggested testing them in smaller things to see if therapy stayed about you, and was your therapist able to discuss your feelings about them without becoming defensive or angry? Do they see themselves as an authority above you or someone to walk alongside you? My T believes in the wounded therapist, that we all have problems, the only difference is the role the therapist takes on in the relationship. Which was probably why he was so open to anything I brought to him, he had no need to be seen as my superior.

I truly understand that therapy does not work at times and even that people can come out more damaged than they went in. It's why I urge people to learn and investigate and not to trust their therapist blindly. But it can sometimes be difficult to discern between a bad therapist and the projections of our injuries. Even when therapy is going well and being done correctly, it can be a painful, chaotic, messy process. So talking about good therapy, what it looks like, how does it work, why is the relationship set up the way it is, is very important to allow people to evaluate the level of care that they are receiving. I understand the bind that people often enter into a level of attachment that leaves them in an extremely painful and damaging place before they realize that the therapist is not capable. So only any given individual can decide if the risk is worth trying to heal. For me it was. I do not wish to deny other people's bad experiences which are not their fault, but neither do I wish to deny that I have truly found healing, and a better life where I am capable of much deeper vulnerability and intimacy in relationship.

I totally agree Budfox, but I was not capable of a real world intimate relationship as a self-aware person until my therapist helped me finish developing, unlearn the lies the abuse taught me, and proved to me that an intimate relationship was not the dangerous, hurtful thing all my experience had taught me. I needed a clear space, that was only about me, without another person's needs interfering (something I think is an unrealistic expectation in a mutual adult relationship. Actually, one of the goals of my therapy was to be able to give as well as get in a relationship, by healing my unfulfilled needs) for me to be able to understand my patterns, my beliefs and behaviors so I could change that which no longer served me well and learned how to enter into a healthy relationship. I was blessed in that I had a husband who also did his own work so that I do now have that mutual relationship which is a bedrock for me.

I am truly, deeply sorry that was not your experience in therapy. I do not wish to be contentious, and again I apologize for opening this discussion with you in such a combative manner, just to acknowledge that while therapy is not for everyone, it can be very effective for some people who find the right therapist. I suspect you wish to make it clear that it can be a dangerous undertaking that does not come close to that which it promises, and that in your experience the setup does not work. I respect that. Thanks for responding to me and engaging in this conversation. And in a PS I would not have expected you to know I was a member. I originally found this forum backtracking a link from my blog, but have mostly read and rarely posted. I am not sure if it was wise of me to do so this time as I seem to have overreacted, but I do appreciate that this discussion is presenting so many different points of view. I appreciate being able to join in. I wish you the best on your healing path.

AG

Budfox, Sorry, I think we cross-posted (my post was written over a long period of time with several interruptions). I totally agree with what you said here. And you're right that context is important.

Guilloche, thanks so much. My husband is doing very well and is coming home from the hospital.

This is a very legitimate question. No the recent rupture did not undo the good therapy for trauma that I got.

And you're correct, last year I did feel that what I wanted to do, "should" do, or something like that, was to take what I had learned and try to tell others that healing was possible.

But forming that kind of an ideal as a purpose was part of a dysfunctional aspect of my personality that was NOT healed. In that framework I had to have a "reason" in order for me to be an OK person, it wasn't OK for me to just be me.

My mind changed, or I became aware of some other aspects of it. Rather than wanting to do "good" in the world, which was a "good" thing to do, I found that I wasn't really feeling motivated to do that. What was more true to my feelings was that I was still very pissed at my last therapist and therapy in general.

In the last year or so I believe my T was caught up in the pseudo-parent, “helper” role, couldn't see that, couldn't step back and help me move out from needing her and accept me as just another (equal) but very different adult. My temperament is nerd-y, that’s just me. It’s not the most common temperament but not disordered either. And as I was trying to be a person based on that, instead of pleasing others, we clashed. We had a continuing conflict about that. Maybe it was a like an adolescent separating from a parent, but she certainly didn’t handle it any better than I did.

To that extent, then, the therapy turned into being about her needs, not mine. And that is narcissistic on her end and can be destabilizingly awful on the receiving end.

Fortunately -- I am pretty much over my T's incapacity to "see" me. But still pissed that psychotherapy as a profession (in the aggregate, not all individual therapists) has very poor ways of helping people with personality disorders get better and puts us through hell (even or especially when we are undiagnosed) and then blames us, socially, for our unsocialized conduct and/or inability to function well. Really pissed. Justifiable pissed, I believe. That is a story closer to the reality of my experience.

Nevertheless, I went through it – all the therapy -- because I thought it was the “right” thing to do based on my disordered personality’s ways of making decisions at the time. Not the worst type of personality disorder to have, and I certainly needed some help of some sort. Now after all the years I’m doing sort of OK. The therapy, or something, finally helped the psyche and I’ve found a safe community that helps me try to “be myself” without so much fear of judgment that used to plague me in the past.

Good therapy can help, bad therapy can hurt, and it’s hard to tell which is which sometimes. That’s the main reason for the question that this thread was about.

(Wow, this answer got long.)

AG: Long post, hard to respond. I did not mean to make a blanket condemnation of your therapy situation. i was actually responding to a short excerpt someone else posted. That's just what came to mind. I realize these things are rarely straightforward. Apologize if it came across as overly judgmental.

I don't think so much in terms of bad therapists. For me the issue was the basic nature of the relationship. It was contrived and asymmetrical and came with forced hierarchy and rules and arbitrary boundaries. It required me to assume role of inferior and subordinate. She was seeking need gratification, but covertly. There was money involved. She hid all her own defects and neuroses, per her training. I could go on and on. Most or all of this seems standard therapy stuff.

And most importantly, she exposed deep and essential needs, only to frustrate them, BY DESIGN. If she had handled everything ideally, it would still have been an exercise in need exposure followed by need frustration. This is healing? The client is supposed to learn to tolerate this, blah blah blah. Pretty reckless. Just go digging around in someone's wounds and attachment weirdness, via this role playing exercise, and then hope you don't annihilate them in the process. Plus the risk of dependency and the risk of being terminated at any time, maybe without warning.