[here today]

Society has lots of throw-away people. I’m luckier than many, I’m not physically homeless.

To the extent that there are things about me that “make it” that way, I went to “therapy”. Only to be eventually “thrown away” there, too, that is, terminated and referred away by my last therapist.

Perhaps there are some realities about me, and about the world, that I don’t understand or “get”. And – because I’m a throw-away person? – nobody is cluing me in, telling me “like it is”, at least as they see it.

Well, there are several different ways somebody can “tell” another “like it is”. One is a look-down at you, why don’t you know this, I know and you don’t, do as I tell you or else kind of way. A domineering attitude. And another is – well, something different. Nobody, except for a great-aunt a couple of times, has ever approached me in that other way, except sometimes at work when I was just starting out, and somebody could see I didn’t know how to do something very well, and came over and clued me in. Not putting me down but cluing me in.

Therapists don’t do that. At least none I’ve ever seen. That’s apparently not in their job description. It’s not in anybody’s job description. Maybe it’s in the job description that therapists would assign to “parents” which they didn’t do but if a person didn’t get that -- it’s not something that they/we/I are going to get by “parenting ourselves”. At least I certainly don’t see how I can since it hasn’t worked so far.

I personally don’t believe it belongs in the job description of “parents” alone. I believe it’s in the “job description” of extended family, tribe, or community of origin. Only there are not a lot of them in today’s society, for some of us anyway, so. . .

I have looked for a social worker therapist who might “get” what I feel I need and haven’t found one. Nobody in the profession “gets” it, that I don’t “get” it, and probably need input and feedback from others in order to build up the missing knowledge base. Consequently, my life currently is largely a waste for the society and for me.

I know 2 people with long-term depression, who spent years in therapy, who have voluntarily exited life. I don’t intend to do that myself. There are a few sources of strength in my life, thank goodness. So, to the extent that I find the energy from time to time, I will rant here and other places. Does what I'm writing about here strike a chord with anybody else?

I also wonder how the homeless feel, what has not been available to them in their lives. They probably need something more than just a house – I wonder.

ETA: Or maybe -- my mother, aunts, and grandmother DID try to clue me in to the society of domineering women, in the only way they knew how to, by domineering, only -- the "rewards" of that lifestyle are a bad fit with my temperament. In which case -- my old maid aunt, whom others looked down on, still felt more comfortable to me, because she was straightforward and told it like it was -- somewhat "harsh" but not down-putting. "Clued me in", let me know what was going on, stuff I couldn't have guessed if she hadn't told me, like when I wanted to touch a great-uncle's bald head and she pulled me aside and told me it was rude. THEN I could understand that maybe it made him feel "bad" about his baldness, it wasn't something he wanted to talk about. But if my mother, grandmother, or aunts had just glared at me, as they did from time to time, then I wouldn't have known what was up, just that I was "bad" in some way that I was utterly clueless about.

Whenever I hear or read these types of perspectives, the first thing that comes to my own mind is that perhaps it's quite subjective how an individual perceives and experiences the exclusions, when people are helpless in terms of others, or when we feel they are not able to understand. My automatic reaction and interpretation, for myself, is not "being thrown away". More that I do not click well with certain people and they are clueless about me, and often I am also not able to relate well and be really empathetic with certain kinds. Some of these can be immediate family members (for my my mom, for example, which is sad, but not unrealistic, IMO.

I personally would have felt it much more straightforward and honest from a T to say directly that they tried to understand me and help me, but it's just beyond their perception and world view. And not continue pushing both themselves and me to "work it out". Well, I left therapy each time when I felt we were hitting that stage (or when I felt I no longer needed it), but the Ts both had a very hard time letting go of me. I don't think it was particularly supportive, definitely not healing or honest. This relates to being direct in interpersonal interactions, which I much prefer as well, and how I started out as a younger person, but had to learn from experience that it is not always welcomed - learn the so called diplomatic type interactions as an adult. But my default is still directness (both giving and receiving) and all I can do is to practice it in my closest relationships. Will never work on a larger scale, IMO.

I had similar experience with family members in my youth - I disconnected from most of them pretty early (early childhood-adolescence) because there was just so little in common between us. For me, my dad was the only real exception. I also feel that it was/is much more effective and healthy for me to find my own people and establish relationships based on what was there between us (friends, colleagues etc), instead of focusing on and grieving what was missing. I know that this attitude is not something that everyone can just adopt automatically, just wanted to share my view and experience on the topic.

The homeless and otherwise dysfunctional, "discarded" populations of society is a different question in my mind, at least very distinct from my own life experience.

[unaluna]

I came from a family where they didnt "get it" either. My mother would laugh when everyone else laughed, but she once admitted to me that she didnt understand the jokes, but she laughed purely to fit in and recommemded i do the same.

These are not people who can teach you anything. Plus they resent you for being as smart as you are, so they stop helping you, just so they can laugh at your mistakes. Yeah its petty, but its what it is / was.

Perhaps there are some realities about me, and about the world, that I don’t understand or “get”. And – because I’m a throw-away person? – nobody is cluing me in, telling me “like it is”, at least as they see it.

Do you tell others like it is when you understand the expectations or rules of a situation when they don't? I think it is a very difficult things for adults to do, unless there is a specific educational/vocational dynamic in place. "Educating" adults in this way is not a therapeutic exercise and so I am not surprised that therapists have been reluctant to undertake it; what would the consequences be if they gave you a bum steer (which they inevitably would)?

I think it's a categorical mistake to assume that others understand the rules. Most people are bumbling their way along, getting it wrong and getting hurt along the way, because the rules are often arbitrary and subjective.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

Whenever I hear or read these types of perspectives, the first thing that comes to my own mind is that perhaps it's quite subjective how an individual perceives and experiences the exclusions, when people are helpless in terms of others, or when we feel they are not able to understand. My automatic reaction and interpretation, for myself, is not "being thrown away". More that I do not click well with certain people and they are clueless about me, and often I am also not able to relate well and be really empathetic with certain kinds. Some of these can be immediate family members (for my my mom, for example, which is sad, but not unrealistic, IMO. . .

Thanks very much. I suspect that my ability to develop a perspective like yours may have been influenced by a traumatic experience when I was 3 and felt abandoned by my mother and terrified in the hospital. But that trauma has, thankfully, been successfully "treated" -- re-experienced and integrated consciously -- so I suspect I can move forward. Better late than never, thanks for your perspective as another possibility to consider.

[here today]

Originally Posted by unaluna

. . .

These are not people who can teach you anything. Plus they resent you for being as smart as you are, so they stop helping you, just so they can laugh at your mistakes. Yeah its petty, but its what it is / was.

I suspect there is some merit to this, especially from my younger sister. Very sad, hurt me, too. I can understand her resentment, but. . .

[here today]

Originally Posted by long_gone

. . .

I think it's a categorical mistake to assume that others understand the rules. Most people are bumbling their way along, getting it wrong and getting hurt along the way, because the rules are often arbitrary and subjective.

So when people today glare at me, even my last T, it's because of them and they way they respond to things, not because I'm socially inferior and they're not? I'll try to remember and consider this if/when I get into a situation where I feel judged again -- which I probably will.

Thanks. I also looked up categorical mistake, which I've heard about but not much, to see if that kind of thing might enter into my thinking in other places.

[guilloche]

This post makes me sad. I understand it, and I feel that way too (I've had a lot of good friends, and some family members, just disappear on me.)

I feel like there's a fine line here too. I want to let you know that you don't strike me as "worthless" (which is what I hear when you say "throwaway"). You're incredibly intelligent, thoughtful, and you seem to have a drive (for a lack of better word). You're a good communicator. You're a decent human. None of that screams "throwaway" to me.

But, I don't want to discount your feelings (and I think saying all that, saying that you're not a "throwaway person" can feel like I am). So I'm not sure how to balance those.

I think that what others have said is very, very true.

1. I'm not sure when it's ever appropriate to correct someone in real life. Unless it's someone that I'm *very* close and comfortable with, and something that matters. Even though, adults have autonomy and it's not my job to tell them how to live their life. (Trying to give advice like this, when it's not asked for, can often make you look like intrusive and like a bit of a crazy control freak!)

I also think the previous poster was right - most of us are just muddling along, doing our best, and not really sure enough of the "right thing" to start dishing out advice, or even noticing somebody doing it wrong.

The people in my life who have done this for me have been people that I've been very close to, and it hasn't been advice really, but rather long philosophical discussions on how people and the world work. Thinking about things, hashing it out, comparing stories, and both of us sharing our experiences in the hopes of figuring out better way to relate to the world. But, the people that I've found who are interested in those conversations is very, very tiny!

Originally Posted by here today

So when people today glare at me, even my last T, it's because of them and they way they respond to things, not because I'm socially inferior and they're not? I'll try to remember and consider this if/when I get into a situation where I feel judged again -- which I probably will.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! I think this is a big one. I had an online therapist years ago who told me that, if he were in a restaurant and a woman ran up to his table, gave him the stink-eye, and started screaming that he was a hideous, awful, terrible person, a truly disgusting worthless human who didn't deserve to be on the planet, and then ran away... it wouldn't bother him. Because he doesn't know her, and he knows he's not those things. It wouldn't affect him anymore than if someone came up to him and said something like, "At night, you turn into an elephant and go stomping through the city, crushing everyone's cars - you monster!"

That was a bit of a light-bulb moment for me. Because I find it hard to not take in what people say too. But really, if you've ever reacted to someone in anger that wasn't actually about them, snapped, said something you regret... think about that, it happens to others too. They're reacting to their own stuff and their own perceptions, which might have nothing to do with you.

If somebody on the street happens to remind you of your mother, and your mother was a terrible, abusive person... and this person stops you to ask a question or for directions, and you give them a suspicious look, before you reluctantly answer them in as few words as possible - that has everything to do with you, and nothing to do with the woman.

Sometimes it's not even that clear, but it's still the other person reacting to their own stuff (fears, insecurities, hopes, whatever) - and not reacting to *you*.

It's almost like, we're expecting people to be fairly good mirrors of who we are... but they're not. They're really showing us who THEY are, most of the time.

[here today]

Originally Posted by guilloche

. . . I find it hard to not take in what people say too. But really, if you've ever reacted to someone in anger that wasn't actually about them, snapped, said something you regret... think about that, it happens to others too. They're reacting to their own stuff and their own perceptions, which might have nothing to do with you.

If somebody on the street happens to remind you of your mother, and your mother was a terrible, abusive person... and this person stops you to ask a question or for directions, and you give them a suspicious look, before you reluctantly answer them in as few words as possible - that has everything to do with you, and nothing to do with the woman.

Sometimes it's not even that clear, but it's still the other person reacting to their own stuff (fears, insecurities, hopes, whatever) - and not reacting to *you*.
. . .

I don't tend to take what others SAY personally. But the glares and judgmental attitudes are another thing entirely. I'm responding, still maybe, to my aunts and others who I looked up to, who DID know the "right ways" to do things, at least in my little girl mind. As I have written about over the last year or so, I'm pretty sure that got "stuck" and dissociated. But now is BACK, having been triggered and hurt, again, by that last T.

So, maybe, now I can review some of those interactions I had with her in that light, that her judgment came from her (retaliatory) anger.

I actually FELT my own retaliatory anger, wish for revenge and to hurt, for the first time when I was talking to her about the termination. That may sound weird, that I never felt, or remember feeling, the "wish to kill". But I didn't -- part of the dissociation, I guess. So I thought my feeling it might just be "progress", and I paid some attention to it and sought some redress from her, risking rejection, after the termination, and got a little bit of additional discussion, for free.

But I still feel so damaged, and so old. What I now know as dissociation, including what I felt as "rage" located in my left forearm, first showed up in therapy 30 years ago.

Based on my experience, the "treatment" for this kind of thing has sure been lousy and often ineffective, or making things worse!

The "treatment" possibilities DO seem to be getting better. Just not soon enough!!!

[SalingerEsme]

I love people, and the idea of anyone being thrown away hurts my heart. There is a quotation by the poet Walt Whitman: " I hear the sound of a human voice, a sound I love" that strikes a chord with me. I really value every voice that is singular, honest and original like yours is. You seem self -aware and engaged in a very existential struggle to understand the inner workings of society as an explanation for why you feel as you do. These kind of thoughts are almost like an illness, and to me also a sign of an alive intelligence.

I do feel "clued in" in terms of I was taught to put a smile on and be socially fluent, but this requires the abandonment of self. I have a job, a boyfriend, an ex husband,friends and a great dog but I still feel bereft bc of the harrowing things done to me as a kid while also being forced to "put a smile on" and maintain appearances. To the casual glancer, I might look rock solid, but I cant sleep and so often want to go to sleep and never wake up bc the anguish from inside never stops and a lot of social skills are a facade to make things easier for other people and for me to hide behind, keep secrets, and lick wounds. I ask my T if some things are so disfiguring the damage done is total, and he gets tears in his eyes but he never says no. I am not sure if I will pull through this year, but if I didnt people would never understand except my T.

I am just saying, some of the people who make you feel throw away might be total messes like me held together with paper clips a wing and a prayer. Your posts are some of the ones I read first, and I always want to know how you are doing. You're very important here, and in the real world it is so much about listening hard with a gentle smile in our eyes. That is so much of what other people look for- an open friendly face with a smile, and this quality of attentiveness that says you find them absorbing , remembering little things abut them etc. You have to kind of put yourself on the back burner, and have energy in the people energy bank to lend out.