[MoxieDoxie]

....or something like that. My new EMDR-T said I am what they called in his field "Theraperized" as he puts his hands up and outlines quotes with his fingers. It means I have had so much therapy and have read everything I could that I could be a therapist.

Oh great so there is no hope.

He said what happens with those like me is our core values have not changed and we still have those faulty core values.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by MoxieDoxie

....or something like that. My new EMDR-T said I am what they called in his field "Theraperized" as he puts his hands up and outlines quotes with his fingers. It means I have had so much therapy and have read everything I could that I could be a therapist.

Oh great so there is no hope.

He said what happens with those like me is our core values have not changed and we still have those faulty core values.

How long have you been seeing him? It seems like he's making an awful lot of assumptions and generalizations about you...Any chance there's a different EMDR T you could see?

[ElectricManatee]

What does that even mean? Even people who have formally trained to become therapists can sometimes benefit from going to therapy. That seems weirdly judgey of him to say.

[Elio]

Ok, but I guess, what does that mean in terms of him being able to treat you? EMDR is so different in the way it works, it seems like it would be the right way to go to "de-theraperized" and reach those core values.

[atisketatasket]

Since when has it been the purpose of therapy to change “core values”? Behaviors or attitudes, okay, but not what makes us us.

I find the whole idea of changing core values creepy.

[Elio]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

Since when has it been the purpose of therapy to change “core values”? Behaviors or attitudes, okay, but not what makes us us.

I find the whole idea of changing core values creepy.

I guess it depends on how one defines core values. In this context, I took it as meaning more the core beliefs that cause us our individual struggles. For me, they are things like unlovable, unworthy, replaceable, too much. I do hope therapy will change some of them and it why I am still in therapy. I've heard though that you can't change core shame, you can only learn how to recognize that is what is going on and adjust your behavior accordingly. I am hoping that is not the case.

I did not take it to mean things like honor, respect, integrity... and such that I hold as core values. Though, I do hope that therapy will help put some of those in perspective as to allow me to forgive myself when I feel I have crossed one of those core values and realize what is excessive in those core values.

[jeremiahgirl]

Lol I’ve done EMDR too! it worked for me success to you, I’m sure you can achieve it since your a “therapist!”

I have heard of this and have seen this in therapists I know outside of my personal therapy. I think what this means is that being theraperized is having all the insights and knowing all the problems and being able to understand yourself fully and talk about it, but not living it. Kind of an outside observer of it all.

He certainly could have framed it better. It's not a sign of hopelessness-maybe a sign that he has a strategy to help long-term clients who are struggling.

[jeremiahgirl]

Your right Rayne_ I couldn’t have said it better! Great insight

[Elio]

Originally Posted by Rayne_

I have heard of this and have seen this in therapists I know outside of my personal therapy. I think what this means is that being theraperized is having all the insights and knowing all the problems and being able to understand yourself fully and talk about it, but not living it. Kind of an outside observer of it all.

He certainly could have framed it better. It's not a sign of hopelessness-maybe a sign that he has a strategy to help long-term clients who are struggling.

Yes, I kind of figured he was talking about the intellectualizing of it all. I realized over the last few days that I've not made as much progress as I had thought I had towards my issues as I realized I only "believed" the new ideas within the illusion of the transference and therapeutic space. When I thought about my T writing a report to my insurance to justify my number of visits a week (not something she has to do yet but might come up if I increase number of sessions), I realized that I still believe that she couldn't care about some one as messed up as me and that I still believe I am not ok.

I think that psychological problems and frustrations often arise not because we have faulty core values but because our goals and especially actions are not aligned with them. I certainly had periods in my life when I felt the most miserable due to such dissonance between my values and my life. I also had a therapist who seems to have his core values right and says all the right things about therapy, but the way he conducts it is often the polar opposite in very obvious and annoying ways. My personal opinion is that it is important to figure out our core values if we want to be self aware, but the goal of self-improvement is better focused on achieving a better alignment, not changing the values. My last T actually had this in the center of his therapeutic philosophy in theory (puts on his website etc), but he really did not do much in that area with me even though it was clear that I had the same interest.

Perhaps if someone has issues around their basic value system, I think it is more often a lack of awareness of it and not that it is "faulty".

[here today]

Originally Posted by MoxieDoxie

....or something like that. My new EMDR-T said I am what they called in his field "Theraperized" as he puts his hands up and outlines quotes with his fingers. It means I have had so much therapy and have read everything I could that I could be a therapist.

Oh great so there is no hope.

He said what happens with those like me is our core values have not changed and we still have those faulty core values.

Yikes! I guess it's good that the therapy professionals can recognize there might be an issue with this, but the way it is framed it sounds like more "client-blaming" to me.

NOT a positive sign -- in the therapist, would be my take. Maybe he was just repeating some things he had heard. And it does seem to me like EMDR might help with stuff more easily and with less damage than regular old therapy.

But, in my experience, client-blaming is (re) traumatic and just plain traumatic! Hitting people when they are "down" and looking for help. If the therapy in question, or the therapist, can't help, then it is the THERAPY or THERAPISTS' fault, no matter what personal "faults" and experiences the client brought to the table. If the client was hurt by too much therapy, blame the previous therapists.

I'm not in therapy any more, but client-blaming is definitely not something I would tolerate any more. It can have very bad "side effects". Perhaps sometimes it serves a purpose? But I would definitely question and ask about that.

Underneath the "traumatic" values I am finding something else entirely, maybe. Getting through the trauma to those -- that's been the bigger issue as I see it.

[MoxieDoxie]

Originally Posted by Rayne_

I have heard of this and have seen this in therapists I know outside of my personal therapy. I think what this means is that being theraperized is having all the insights and knowing all the problems and being able to understand yourself fully and talk about it, but not living it. Kind of an outside observer of it all.

He certainly could have framed it better. It's not a sign of hopelessness-maybe a sign that he has a strategy to help long-term clients who are struggling.

Right. I have read up on all I can about my diagnosis, why I behaved the way I did or do but all the "Knowing" has never changed anything. I still could not just will myself to stop just because I read about the reasoning behind it all.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by MoxieDoxie

Right. I have read up on all I can about my diagnosis, why I behaved the way I did or do but all the "Knowing" has never changed anything. I still could not just will myself to stop just because I read about the reasoning behind it all.

I agree that understanding something intellectually is totally different than being able to apply that and change something that you want to. Fear and anxiety often get in the way for me. But i am confused about the "core values" comment. I mean, I see my core values as things I would not want to change in therapy, about making the world a better place and helping as many people as I can (for example). If he means core beliefs, like the world is a terrible place and nobody can be trusted, then some of those I have dealt with in therapy.

[MoxieDoxie]

I have never been asked or never in therapy have we went through core values and what they are. I think what I understand is that they are how we feel about ourselves like "I am broken", "I am worthless". I guess we might go into that. Last session was just so emotional and I was crying so damn hard. I had to go through every traumatic memory in my head that I can remember and give it a title. I did not have to tell him about it just title it and give it a scale from 1-10 on how as an adult it effects me just by thinking about it. So we will be doing EMDR on each and everyone of those memories. So not sure that leaves time to discuss this core value thing.

[Elio]

Originally Posted by MoxieDoxie

Right. I have read up on all I can about my diagnosis, why I behaved the way I did or do but all the "Knowing" has never changed anything. I still could not just will myself to stop just because I read about the reasoning behind it all.

I agree with this. It is why I have approached my process the way I have. I need to know on an implicit level these things and not on an explicit level. I believe the only way to get elements of that is through moments of corrective experiences.

Originally Posted by MoxieDoxie

I have never been asked or never in therapy have we went through core values and what they are. I think what I understand is that they are how we feel about ourselves like "I am broken", "I am worthless".

My interpretation of that concept (and pretty much everyone's I've spoken about it so far) is different. When I think about "values", I think of things in life that are especially important for me (both in the inner and outer world), kinda standards that I really care about, want to meet, and would like to live my life by. For me, for example: personal responsibility, fairness, competency, using my talents to contribute to things that go beyond me, a relatively high need for originality and quality in things that I do, a good level of equanimity, etc. I have a need to feel aligned with these things on a certain level in order to feel balanced and good about myself. I think feelings or conclusion like "I am broken" or "I am worthless"are not values really but a certain vision/interpretation of the self.

Maybe if someone has unrealistically high inner standards and expectations for the self (perhaps implanted by significant people in our lives), that is a kind of "core value" that creates the feelings of being broken and worthless as a consequence?

In any case, I like this topic but in fact the whole area of values probably has little to do with what EMDR is supposed to target. Maybe the traumas it is supposed to treat are what can distort core values in the first place, but I feel this is more abstract than how EMDR itself works.

[maybeblue]

I have heard those called "core beliefs," rather than "core values." I think "core beliefs" was Aaron Beck's terminology. His theory is that people with depression tend to have a set of really deep beliefs that either fall into the area of "I'm unlovable" or the area of "I'm incompetent."

My core beliefs always fall in the "I'm unlovable" camp. I'm reasonably sure that I am intelligent and competent enough in most things, but I have this deep fear/belief that people just don't like me. It is still there after years of therapy. However, I would say that when I first went to therapy it was active about 75-90% of the time, and now it is only about 25% of the time.

I'm probably at least as "therapized" as you. I'm not quite ready to call it hopeless yet though. I keep thinking there has to be something that I haven't tried yet. Maybe if we ever figure it out we can write best selling self-help books and make millions of dollars.

[mostlylurking]

Originally Posted by MoxieDoxie

Last session was just so emotional and I was crying so damn hard. I had to go through every traumatic memory in my head that I can remember and give it a title. I did not have to tell him about it just title it and give it a scale from 1-10 on how as an adult it effects me just by thinking about it.

I don't know how much trauma you have suffered, but this does not seem safe to me. It seems potentially very destabilizing. I suppose I would be classified as a resistant client but I would refuse to do what he asked you to do, flat out. I'm sorry it was such a rough session and I hope you're doing okay with those memories.

For me, one of the big things therapy has taught me is that there's a huge difference between knowing something cognitively and feeling the truth of it emotionally. I'm someone who has always intellectualized many things as a defense mechanism (as in: I refuse to feel feelings about this, I'll just analyze it to shreds instead). It turns out that all the analysis and intellect and reading in the world can leave the emotional pain just sitting there like boulders in a river, unmoved.

I honestly think the most helpful thing in therapy was that when I would explain to my T why I was picked on, ostracized, etc (I was bullied at school in certain years) he sat there quietly refusing to agree with me. Eventually because he seemed to refuse to see my child self as horrible and disgusting no matter how much I explained it, I started to think, hmm, maybe I wasn't actually that bad, maybe some people are just cruel? Trust me, I'd really rather that the answers had come out of books on therapeutic models, or better still, from research papers, but it wasn't that. It was something that took time and happened mostly non-verbally I think. For me -- and I know there are those here that dislike this idea pretty vehemently -- but for me I think the therapeutic relationship is where the healing occurred. So I don't think that having "already read all the books," so to speak, is any cause for losing hope.

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by mostlylurking

For me, one of the big things therapy has taught me is that there's a huge difference between knowing something cognitively and feeling the truth of it emotionally. I'm someone who has always intellectualized many things as a defense mechanism (as in: I refuse to feel feelings about this, I'll just analyze it to shreds instead). It turns out that all the analysis and intellect and reading in the world can leave the emotional pain just sitting there like boulders in a river, unmoved.

I honestly think the most helpful thing in therapy was that when I would explain to my T why I was picked on, ostracized, etc (I was bullied at school in certain years) he sat there quietly refusing to agree with me. Eventually because he seemed to refuse to see my child self as horrible and disgusting no matter how much I explained it, I started to think, hmm, maybe I wasn't actually that bad, maybe some people are just cruel? Trust me, I'd really rather that the answers had come out of books on therapeutic models, or better still, from research papers, but it wasn't that. It was something that took time and happened mostly non-verbally I think. For me -- and I know there are those here that dislike this idea pretty vehemently -- but for me I think the therapeutic relationship is where the healing occurred. So I don't think that having "already read all the books," so to speak, is any cause for losing hope.

Thank you for posting this. What you described is very similar to what I am experiencing and a big part of why I don't see my attachment to my therapist as a problem. (And why she doesn't either.)

[MoxieDoxie]

Originally Posted by mostlylurking

I don't know how much trauma you have suffered, but this does not seem safe to me. It seems potentially very destabilizing. I suppose I would be classified as a resistant client but I would refuse to do what he asked you to do, flat out. I'm sorry it was such a rough session and I hope you're doing okay with those memories.

For me, one of the big things therapy has taught me is that there's a huge difference between knowing something cognitively and feeling the truth of it emotionally. I'm someone who has always intellectualized many things as a defense mechanism (as in: I refuse to feel feelings about this, I'll just analyze it to shreds instead). It turns out that all the analysis and intellect and reading in the world can leave the emotional pain just sitting there like boulders in a river, unmoved.

I honestly think the most helpful thing in therapy was that when I would explain to my T why I was picked on, ostracized, etc (I was bullied at school in certain years) he sat there quietly refusing to agree with me. Eventually because he seemed to refuse to see my child self as horrible and disgusting no matter how much I explained it, I started to think, hmm, maybe I wasn't actually that bad, maybe some people are just cruel? Trust me, I'd really rather that the answers had come out of books on therapeutic models, or better still, from research papers, but it wasn't that. It was something that took time and happened mostly non-verbally I think. For me -- and I know there are those here that dislike this idea pretty vehemently -- but for me I think the therapeutic relationship is where the healing occurred. So I don't think that having "already read all the books," so to speak, is any cause for losing hope.

Now why couldn't the damn therapists explain it like this to me? It make so much damn sense and sure does resonate with me.

Well as for the trauma work in EMDR you have to be willing to do the work and be ok with feeling worse for a couple of days afterwards. I was warned about weird vivid dreams and EMDR would be done around the dreams also. I have only seen him twice and I do not have a connection with him yet. If he is going to have to make an effort and not just forget I exist between sessions.