[Mouse_]

I cannot concentrate on my day until I get back to T on monday. this bloody internal v external truth has me all over the place. I mean doesn't the majority of the population get pissed at people? Do most people walk around taking complete responsibilty for how they feel? and why does T say the wooden apple she has on her shelve is real? Its not a real apple. Yes its an object that represents an apple, but its not an apple? Perhaps I am just suuuuuuupid. T is smart, has a very good education and knows philosphy and such. Me all I know is an apple is something I buy in the shop and have no desire to have a representation of one.

[Perna]

You are not stupid! It's a real, wooden apple. "Apple" is in it's meaning to you? Real apples aren't just food.

Think of an item/noun that has no literal representation. How about "friend", or even "therapist". Just because we have a concrete example in "apple" doesn't mean that's "all" the apple is. Think about what makes your T a therapist? Now, think about what makes an apple an apple for you? Part of apple, for me, is in the apple tree; I had one outside my door in my old house and use to sit in my chair and look out the door and see it and it's "warmth" and loveliness, solidity and grace, changing with the seasons, use to anchor me when I sat in my chair, use to let me fantasize and journal and work on therapy. . . Yes it had apples; sour, green, wormy ones :-) that I loved because they represented "self-sufficiency" to me. I eat an apple a day and I love feeding "myself" would have loved to have lived on a farm in the 1800's, etc.

Do you know the American story of "Johnny Appleseed" (Disney did it too in the 1950's which I remember)?

http://www.appleseed.net/johnny_appleseed_story.htm

What was an "apple" to him? We are more than our physical bodies. If someone wanted to know the reality of me I think I'd be offended if someone merely replied, 5'6" tall, brown hair and eyes, overweight. . .

It's the "appleness" of the apple that matters, that makes it an apple. A wooden example can be just as appley (? :-) as the red, crisp, juicy kind with seeds? When you see the wooden one, you know what it "is"; it's an apple. What makes it unreal for you? You're a woman and I'm a woman but what's our "womanness" that people identify when they see us?

i think "mad" was a poor choice of words on her part. i used to struggle with the idea a lot.. of feeling outraged or disappointed in how people felt. i'm better at it now. i try to accept that we all have the right to think or feel how we choose to, but i don't have to accepts *how* they choose to think. i try not to judge someone based on their opinions.... generally. i have been ignorant at times and held opinions i am nnow ashamed of... but we can't change people's opinions, they have to do that themselves. An exchange of ideas allows people to consider other points of view, whereas argument and judgment do not.

and no, i am not saying you are feeling or saying anything wrong. it is what it is.

who knows how this woman came to feel as she does?

i think it's ok to express your own views, but what you said about tolerating disappointment is key here... it isn't whether you can express how you feel, it's *how* you do it and when you should or shouldn't. Tolerance of others is not as simple as it sounds.

i do think you have a right to be a little pissed at T. She should not bring in all sorts of philosophical reasoning that does not correlate to where you are at. She needs to walk in your world and not the other way around. She can adhere to all manner of abstract philosophy but it is unfair to expect you to join her in that. (it's mad )

[Kiya]

yeah, that whole thing sounds a little... nutty? off? I mean, what's her point, anyway? She trying to turn your world upside down?

[Mouse_]

Kiya, I think my world being turned upside is turning out to be just what I need!