[MRT6211]

So there’s something I’ve noticed about myself through this transition process from my old T, we’ll call her S, and my new T, L.
I’m in a program where I do groups and therapy and meds. So I knew L before she became my T. I was very attached to S and was heartbroken to find that she was leaving the program. She helped me make more progress in the 11 months I saw her than in the whole time I was in therapy and all of the therapists before her. How she did it, though? Honestly, she acted more like a parent than a T, for the most part. And that’s what worked. The therapeutic environment I’m in allows for very non-traditional therapy, so it worked. When I was spiraling out of control or engaging in a lot of unhealthy or self-destructive behaviors, T would be right on my case. It would start with firm lectures and then sometimes escalate to her actually raising her voice at me. That’s all it would ever take, though, because as soon as she did that, I’d always kinda snap back in line and start using my skills again. The harsh/firm never came without empathy and care. She would never just yell at me and leave me, and as weird as it may sound to a lot of people, she used yelling therapeutically.
So part of me was like “this is definitely just how my relationship works with S, I don’t know if that would ever work with anyone else.” But now I’ve had a couple of sessions with L, and I have been having a hard time with S leaving, so I kinda met a rebellious and self-destructive streak, and as usual I was coming up with excuses and challenging L on everything until she took a much firmer tone with me and I started to kinda wake up and realize what I was doing. L is known in the program to be one of the more gentle Ts, but S told me she was going to tell L to be hard on me. L said last week that she has very high expectations for me and she wanted to make that clear and make it clear that she isn’t all soft and gentle all of the time and she’s not afraid to put me in my place. I kinda felt relieved about that. I am afraid of sliding backwards because I don’t have S to be firm with me when I need it. But maybe this will work out.
My wonder now is why this is the only way therapy will work for me...it’s not like this resembles my upbringing at all. Really no one gave a dang about what I did and didn’t do while I was a kid. Not something I feel comfortable bringing up within L yet because I don’t know her that well (other than as a group leader, it’s very different individually though). Sigh. Maybe I’m just a special case lol. I guess I shouldn’t worry about why something works if it does though, right? If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it...
On that note, for anyone that’s seen my other posts, I’m going back to medical school next week! Yay for recovery and moving forward!

Maybe you feel like you deserve to be yelled at ? Maybe its just your personality?
i can undestand it though. my therapist is the same way with me at times and it works well for us because sometimes that is exactly what I need.

[Anne2.0]

Congratulations on your successful return to school.

I do remember your previous posts on this, and I'm not sure what you're looking for here. I do believe that yelling-- which I distinguish from screaming at, cursing at, or otherwise emotionally abusing someone-- can be therapeutic, as you say. If the result is not fear or any other negative reaction, if you consent to this and if you understand it as it seems like you do, I suggest you keep doing it. I do wonder if it would be useful for you to have a conversation with your T about learning more about why this works for you, although your childhood suggests some obvious answers.

[maybeblue]

Obviously, I have no idea of this is true or not, but I wonder if it could be actually because nobody really cared about your behavior when you were a kid. Nobody held you to a high standard. But effective parents do set limits. It creates an atmosphere of trust that when you get out of hand they will be there to help you stay in control. And you are responding to that. So I think it's great.

It would not work at all for me. My father was very inconsistent--passive and easy going and then poof all of a sudden angry and not in control. Often this had nothing to do with my behavior, but I always thought it did. So now anger from therapists/doctors/anyone in authority scares me to death.

It's sounds like your new therapist is pretty effective at adapting her style to the needs of her clients, and that is awesome. And congrats on going back to medical school. If you ever end up being my doctor though, don't yell at me. I hate that

You and your therapist are two adults working towards common aims together. Yelling is a clumsy and long term ineffectual way to achieve goals. It's hard to imagine any other adult-adult professional relationship where yelling and lecturing would be seen as appropriate ways to encourage reflection and consideration. I am sorry you haven't found better therapists.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

I do wonder if it would be useful for you to have a conversation with your T about learning more about why this works for you, although your childhood suggests some obvious answers.

No, not obvious! Please expound!!

[zoiecat]

I totally get it. I was either neglected or abused in all ways as a kid. I actually dissociate when someone is too nice to me. I have asked my T to be mean to me because that is all that seems to get through my sick, twisted brain but he refused for many reasons. Mainly due to my past abuse. I wish I had a T that would yell at me. I feel I could make progress a lot faster.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by unaluna

No, not obvious! Please expound!!

Sorry, didn't mean to be coy or make assumptions about how to see it. OP said this: "Really no one gave a dang about what I did and didn’t do while I was a kid." So I assume that yelling (being upset) about OP screwing something up for herself (and again this is a specific context, because OP has a specific goal of getting back into med school after some MH issues and being successful there), means something to OP. I think that the yelling means that the T cares about what OP is doing or not, which is the opposite of what happened in her childhood. I can see if one was yelled as a child (resembles my family), then yelling would have a different meaning. Or for OP, maybe the yelling means that she has to shape up, or she won't reach her goal (sort of like a nonabusive version of what boot camp instructors do to new recruits, or pledge week at a sorority. Not terribly unlike the socratic method in law school, designed to point out a student's mistakes and encourage them to do better.

I'm not a big believer in any of these things, I have not a lot of respect for "authority" and not a lot of desire to please anyone. The lawyer part of me enjoys pissing other people off when I'm trying to, means I'm landing my points. So I generally stay away from activities that require me to do things a certain way, or any clubs that require submission to thinking or behavior (which is why I don't belong to anything and being part of a group is pretty much torture). So yelling wouldn't be helpful for me.

So I think it may not be about the yelling so much as what the yelling symbolizes for OP-- and sort of sorry about the armchair analysis, but I don't think you'll mind. Yelling means someone cares about my success (and her self defined goal) and therefore I care too, and change my behavior to something more likely to result in my success.

There could be other symbols. I think there's a version of her experience in some of the abuse victims I've worked with over the years. What gets interpreted as "romantic" or "he's really into me" may actually be controlling or abusive behavior when seen in hindsight. Then his stalking her and showing up at her work or when she's at the mall or with a friend or whatever seems like the creepfest it is. Or extreme jealousy that isolates her from her family or friends feels good in the beginning because he only wants to be with her, then after she leaves him, she sees how her isolation helped him keep her feeling torn down. For some people, especially younger women, they may respond to cultural ideals that romantic love is somehow dangerous (lots of high fashion magazines use black eye makeup or corpse like poses when men and women are depicted together; or see Rhiannon/Eminem's music video "Love the Way You Lie"). I'm sure there are other examples.

Unfortunately I have met quite a few victims of violence who thought that the physical abuse itself was proof of how great their love was, or that it was so great that it could withstand craziness and pain (one must suffer for love). For some a calm and loving relationship without "fighting" feels bland, which may be confusion between the body's response to fear and the body's response to attraction (both get your heart rate and attendant physiology "aroused").

But back to childhood-- and because you asked-- I can see how neglect/inattention from parents would make you seek a "stimulating" relationship in adulthood because a lack of response or emotion feels bad and amped up emotion feels good. Or you might seek a "stimulating" relationship because it mirrors what you witnessed at home, either directed at yourself or what you saw between your parents.

[feileacan]

To me it sounds that nobody ever set proper boundaries for you when you where a child - boundaries that would have made you felt safe and cared. Perhaps the parents not setting boundaries and limits meant that they did not care about you much. Now when the T is setting limits you recognise that this is a form of parental caring that you missed out in your childhood. No wonder you crave for it.

Unfortunately or fortunately, you cannot remain a child forever. At some point you have to start growing up and start setting your own limits to yourself. It is the job of your T's to ensure your growth and make sure that you learn this limit-setting.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

...But back to childhood-- and because you asked-- I can see how neglect/inattention from parents would make you seek a "stimulating" relationship in adulthood because a lack of response or emotion feels bad and amped up emotion feels good...

This resonates. Inattention leaves me in a depressed state, while yelling at least gets my adrenalin up. I used to say, when commuting to work, that i didnt wake up (or cheer up) until i yelled at my first a hole driver, despite drinking coffee.

[here today]

Originally Posted by MRT6211

. . .
My wonder now is why this is the only way therapy will work for me...it’s not like this resembles my upbringing at all. Really no one gave a dang about what I did and didn’t do while I was a kid. . .
On that note, for anyone that’s seen my other posts, I’m going back to medical school next week! Yay for recovery and moving forward!

Seems fairly straightforward, human, to me. Nobody really gave a dang about you -- that's no way for a kid to be brought up. Not blaming your parents. You can, if you want, maybe they deserve it, that's not the point. I don't remember your story -- maybe they were busy with their own stuff and thought leaving you alone was a way to respect you, or something. The effect was the effect no matter how it came about.

(Most) human children do need to know or feel like there are some other humans who care about them and what they do. Parents, and society generally, are confused about that these days, I think. But still the need is there, for many of us. When your T's are firm and get angry when you don't live up to what you are capable of doing (better), and that conflicts with goals you have for your life, that conveys something important to you. For some people, the effect of that behavior might be different. But these T's seem in touch with what is important to you, with what they need to do to help that, and they also care enough about you that that comes through, too.

Congratulations on going back to medical school next week! Yay for recovery, indeed!

[MRT6211]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

Sorry, didn't mean to be coy or make assumptions about how to see it. OP said this: "Really no one gave a dang about what I did and didn’t do while I was a kid." So I assume that yelling (being upset) about OP screwing something up for herself (and again this is a specific context, because OP has a specific goal of getting back into med school after some MH issues and being successful there), means something to OP. I think that the yelling means that the T cares about what OP is doing or not, which is the opposite of what happened in her childhood. I can see if one was yelled as a child (resembles my family), then yelling would have a different meaning. Or for OP, maybe the yelling means that she has to shape up, or she won't reach her goal (sort of like a nonabusive version of what boot camp instructors do to new recruits, or pledge week at a sorority. Not terribly unlike the socratic method in law school, designed to point out a student's mistakes and encourage them to do better.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. It’s all about how it means that T cares about me and me achieving my goals. My dad abandoned my family and I when I was 7, and my mom was there but for a few years was really depressed and not the parent I needed, especially for those crucial years of my life. I was very vulnerable for those years, too, because I was very sick. I had started having symptoms of Rheumatoid Arthritis and I had to go through all sorts of testing, different meds, and lots of pain. It was quite a difficult time and my mom was there for a lot of it but I also felt the need to protect her because she was going through a very rough time with my dad leaving. She did yell sometimes, but it was never in a way that was helpful for my growth. It was always more like nagging or just getting mad because I didn’t do what she wanted or agree with her. I never got yelled at for not achieving my goals or slacking off or something. I also really never got praised for doing well in school. No one was ever checking up on me for that. I never had to be afraid to bring home a bad report card or something and I kind of wish I had that experience. Not afraid in an abusive way, but afraid of disappointing and seeing consequences to my actions. I never was held accountable for anything. And now I have that and it feels nice. I know I have to grow up at some point and hold myself accountable, and I do in many ways, I did have the discipline to get myself into medical school in the first place, but I feel in a way that I need to be patented a little first and these therapists are able to give me what I need. My old T would (and still does, I still have email contact with her) tell me she was proud of me way more often than yell at me. Almost every time I talked to her, she’d slip that in there about something I did right, even though she knew it made me uncomfortable. Hell, I’m pretty sure that’s why she did that. She wants me to be able to feel positively towards myself when I earn it.
There’s also that boot camp aspect, too. Actually, I went through pledging in undergrad and I dealt well with that structure and liked that so many people cared about me and what I was doing. It feels better when other people have control over aspects of my life. I know I need to outgrow that, but I don’t think I’m ready yet.

[unaluna]

(((Mrt))) yeah, its not that there was NO discipline, its that it was like you say, not goal oriented and just kind of random. Like my parents believed they should never apologize, because they wanted to give the kids a sense of safety that their parents were always right. So it was discipline in a House of Mirrors.

Eta - good post. It makes sense of the nonsense.