[Anne2.0]

I'll admit that I have a bias against CBT, which may partly be a function of going to grad school with friends who were training to be clinical psychologists. Their program had a number of faculty who were very strongly oriented CBT therapists, and my friend were irked by the narrow focus on techniques like homework and the like.

But then I read this book "The Coddling of the American Mind," (article summarizing some of its main points here How Trigger Warnings Are Hurting Mental Health on Campus - The Atlantic ) and it made me think about whether some of the ideas of CBT (as opposed to its practice) have been helpful to me. I read the book for a different reason but I was struck by the authors assertion that challenging one's distorted thinking (which there is a sticky about at the top of this forum) is positive for one's mental health. Note that they are not advocating that people get into cognitive therapy; more like that thinking about your thinking and consciously choosing to work towards reframing it is good, they claim, for your mental health. The authors are a psychologist who loves the "wisdom" of CBT and a free speech attorney.

There is a pair of ideas that I have been working on in therapy and real life for some time, which are emotional reasoning and inability to disconfirm. The first one is relying only on feelings to make decisions and judgements. In the beginning of my therapy I was so cut off from my feelings except for anger, a survival mechanism from an abusive childhood, that being willing to feel them much less act on them was kind of a triumph. For me paying attention to what I'm feeling and maybe why I'm feeling it has been useful, but I can over-rely on it, especially when I am too quick to judge situations or people. Recently it's been a part of my parenting, with a teen who thinks if you "feel" something, like not going to school or calling in sick to work, then that's what you should do. Maybe that's more an issue of following through on commitments and just doing your work, but his emphasis that if I feel, therefore I should do, has been challenging to respect what he feels (and he's a kid who feels things deeply) but to encourage him (lecturing him at its worst) to think about the consequences.

Another CBT idea which parallels this one, as labeled by these guys, involves trying to be more open minded about some of the things I believe about myself or the world. For me participating in groups has been a struggle always and I've been part of different community groups on things I care about. I want to belong to a group, feel I belong to a group, yet I have a hard time when I feel something negative that I think is directed at me. Sometimes I think there is something wrong with the group and other times I think I have misperceived things or taken things too personally. Trying to figure out whether the group is positive or negative for me tends to make my brain hurt if I'm willing to engage in both sides. It has taken me some time to feel that I am a valuable member of one of the groups and really take in the positive feedback. It's like I had a block on hearing good things about myself and just focused on what felt like an exclusion or a dismissive comment.

I do not believe I've been doing CBT and have never heard these phrases or ideas communicated by T. Yet I think I've been directing working on reframing in these ways, and I have made some progress, and it feels good.

I don't know if anyone else is interested in discussing whether these ideas derived from CBT are useful to you or help promote your well-being, or other related ideas. But I thought I'd throw it out there.

[ArtleyWilkins]

Those sound very behavioral; they seem to line up with the CBT/REBT models.

However, I think we can get hung up on labeling therapy modalities, even rejecting rather sound, common-sense skills and approaches to healthy living because we have an automatic response to all things CBT or all things psychoanalytic or all things whatever.

A great deal of my therapy was behavioral, but my therapist never specifically labeled what he was working with me on as any particular therapy modality. His approach was simply to use what was needed to help me along. So, sometimes we were working in a very psychodynamic mode. Sometimes we were working on behavioral skills. I know that now mostly from hanging around here, but I honestly wasn't even cognizant of it at the time, and it honestly didn't matter so long as it worked to move me forward.

As far as the two ideas you bring up goes . . .

Like you, I was rather cut off from emotions for a long time, so finding those emotions was important. However, equally important for me was recognizing cognitively where those emotional reactions were coming from, particularly if the emotional reactions were out of proportion to the situation. What my therapist worked with me on was finding that balance between emotion and reason, and that is where the cognitive-behavioral work came in. I learned how to process my emotional reactions, particularly if they were distressing to me, so that I could find some balance and not get into an emotional spiral. We never labeled cognitive errors or did homework; we simply talked through it, very step-by-step at times. Over time, I learned to do that for myself, and that was ultimately the most healing and stabilizing concept I took away from therapy. And I use those skills each and every day (without really giving it much thought - it's internalized now). I've remained stable, pretty darned content, and able to handle a crisis without going into a tailspin.

I teach high schoolers (and have survived parenting three of them). They need that skill of thinking through the consequences. They are basically walking hormones and emotions, and that ability to think ahead to the end result is vital. Keep working with your son; he'll get there. He has a good mom.

The second issue you bring up is also behavioral, maybe more REBTish? Doesn't really matter as far as the label goes. This reminds me of talks with my therapist about old mistaken beliefs about myself, and we really kind of worked on this similarly to what I discuss previously. Generally, if I was feeling something strongly emotionally, in this case tied to how I believed others saw me, it was tied to old beliefs. Figuring out cognitively where that all started and working through that inciting event helped me see what was going on more objectively and allowed me to reframe my thinking about those other people. I found I was assuming a lot of judgment from others when, probably, most of that was in my head and very little judgment was actually happening in reality. Once I stopped being so paranoid about what other people were thinking and made the decision to just enjoy the moment and stop overthinking everything, I found being in groups much more comfortable and relaxing. I found myself not just participating, but actually able to accept the friendship and support of others in the group. I also learned how to blow off the turkeys that always exist in pretty much any group; they are inevitable, but rather easy to work around if you choose to do so. I'm a much more socially comfortable individual now than I was ten years ago.

[unaluna]

I remember yelling at my last t, "all those years my longterm t would ask me what im FEEEEELING, now ive finally got it, and you want me to ignore it??!!"

DBT addresses this in declaring wise mind as the intersection of logical mind and emotional mind, and thats where we should try to operate from. Its a big section of dbt that your boy might be able to read and understand on his own. Okay its my favorite part.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

I teach high schoolers (and have survived parenting three of them). They need that skill of thinking through the consequences. They are basically walking hormones and emotions, and that ability to think ahead to the end result is vital. Keep working with your son; he'll get there. He has a good mom.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts in general. I'm not sure how you have survived parenting three; I think just the one might do me in. Appreciate the compliment.

The experience you describe with becoming a more socially confident person is interesting, and you have a handle on the process that I'm not sure I do. Appreciate you sharing your story.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by unaluna

I remember yelling at my last t, "all those years my longterm t would ask me what im FEEEEELING, now ive finally got it, and you want me to ignore it??!!"

DBT addresses this in declaring wise mind as the intersection of logical mind and emotional mind, and thats where we should try to operate from. Its a big section of dbt that your boy might be able to read and understand on his own. Okay its my favorite part.

Haha on the t-story

I have heard the wise mind saying but didn't know it was from DBT. The declaration is pretty accurate. As to my boy reading anything I suggest, maybe when pigs fly out of my bacon or whatever we say. Glad you were able to find it useful. Thank you for sharing this.

I have never done CBT with a therapist and would not, I find it way too simple to pay someone for it. I think a lot of it can be done alone and I used some aspects by myself to help control destructive impulses, mostly when I was freshly sober and had intense cravings for alcohol.

As for groups, I think what you describe is very common. For example on online forums like this, many people get upset and suddenly close their accounts because they were hurt by something someone said to them or about them. Then sometimes they come back because they realize there is more value in it than to lose it because of one person's or a few people's momentary negative comments. Or even just imagining something negative is meant for them or about them. I never felt that way but saw it happen many times.

As far as this group goes, Anne, for me personally you are a member here whose posts I alway look forward to reading and appreciate and often what you have to say, and how you say it, really clicks with me. I like the depth and maturity that usually comes across from your posts and how you tend to discuss things without taking sides just for the sake of it. And you are very articulate.

I don't have children but I think teaching discipline to a kid is very important - that's something my parents did not do (the downside of freedom and having very accepting, non-directive parents) and I really struggled with it as an adult, still do sometimes. I am not generally an impulsive person (if I don't drink) but like to do things in my own terms, which can sometimes lead to disrupted schedules when I have to work with teams and deadlines. It's a funny thing because I am otherwise very strategical and definitely a planner, and generally reliable, but I think I would never be able to work a conventional 9-5 job, for example (never even tried), or would be very miserable in that condition. Teenagers are impulsive by nature, it is a brain development thing, which also means it is a period/age when they are very sensitive to influences, both good and bad. So much better and more effective to learn good discipline at that age than later as an adult.

[Anne2.0]

I appreciate what you said about me on this board, and I wasn't fishing I know what I am doing here and what I'm looking for, and I've found it. This or other online boards I've participated in the past are completely different experience than my real life community groups. I don't do any other social media either. As for community groups, they are something I struggle with on a regular basis. I've made a fair amount of progress especially in getting what belongs to other people, but I still have a ways to go to figure out my own dysfunctional actions in groups and how I can be not very constructive to the process. I want to engage in groups in my community and feel good about my participation, but I'm not there yet. Figuring out which groups are good for me and which are not and why is one of the goals I'm working towards. For me this is not a easy thing to figure out and is the place in my life where I need to develop the most nuance and understand the complexity better.

I would not engage in CBT as a client in therapy, but the book I referenced in my original post makes an interesting claim about how questioning certain beliefs can be good for your mental health. I was curious about whether that might be true for other people and it's been interesting to read the replies.

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

I would not engage in CBT as a client in therapy, but the book I referenced in my original post makes an interesting claim about how questioning certain beliefs can be good for your mental health. I was curious about whether that might be true for other people and it's been interesting to read the replies.

I absolutely think it is useful, especially for people who are prone to anxiety (like myself). It is a cliche, but the mind often comes up with all sorts of fantasies and distortions that have little or nothing to do with what is out there in reality, in the environment, other people... Also, I think if we go into situations believing and anticipating the worst, we often do not perform optimally and also other people sense the insecurity and it can make them anxious and doubtful as well.

I personally do not think that thoughts and feelings are separate or even separable - all of these are the product of one brain and occur simultaneously. What I like about separating them cognitively for the sake of clarity is that it is possible to evaluate fears, doubts and all sorts of possible outcomes much more clearly and realistically. I think it is also possible to consciously detach from the fears enough and tell ourselves that we do not (cannot) realistically know a situation before we experience it quite a bit. I think it is possible and can be quite effective to use those cognitions to reduce fears and negative beliefs enough to get to a point where we are already in something and can probe into what is true and also get feedback. I do this all the time and have done even long before I first heard of the cognitive therapy methods, but knowing about techniques can indeed make it much more effective.

I also do not think that cognitions and beliefs cause anxiety in the first place but they can certainly exacerbate it. Anxiety is a physiological state, much like being tired, hunger, pain etc - it serves a good purpose and without it we likely would not survive long as we would make bad decisions quickly. It's more about the amount of anxiety that one experiences. I think when it leads to blocks and avoidance, it is often that we have this physiological state that affects many processes in the brain, including decision making and self-regulation. Then we often project it into situations, the environment, our performance, other people's perceived notions, the variety is endless. What I find most useful is to recognize the times when my mind generates projections like that and consciously tell myself I can't possibly know before the experience. And use relatively objective measures to assess outcomes, not feelings. Also that the outcome of one experience, if indeed negative, does not mean that all similar situations will be the same in the future. I sometimes feel that ignoring the anxiety and moving forward with actions to target a desired goal can benefit from a sort of conscious dissociation in that it can lead to manipulating one's focus and awareness on purpose.

Regarding groups, you don't say exactly what element(s) of group participation are the issues. When I was younger, I very much thought I was not a team player kind of person and I chose solo or two-people activities most of the time whenever I had a choice. For me, the real change came when I worked with some really great teams professionally, at first as a participant and then a leader. It progressed so far that I now much prefer to work with teams where people can play roles based on everyone's strengths and expertise vs. doing everything on my own or with one other person. But I still don't like groups purely for socializing, for example, and I don't often engage in that way more than briefly, except with people I like and have an established good relationship with. Of course it depends on the participants and the substance. What I like is bringing groups together based on some shared interest or topic, much like the work teams for a project. I almost always naturally end up being one of the most active participants when the group activity has deeper substance and is based on something I am very interested in. I think it helps a lot to figure out our natural best role in groups and use that generously, because that is most likely to lead to positive experiences and reinforcement. For example, I do best in discussions, strategic planning and problem solving where the topic stimulates me and the partners are insightful and respectful. I will never be the life of the party or someone who provides major emotional support to group members all the time. The great thing in groups is that we don't usually have to play all the social roles and still receive a great variety, depending on the composition of the groups. But we can observe how others act, pick up cues, get feedback, learn from others things that we feel we are not so good at. If the source of the anxiety is assuming that other people take what we have to give negatively or with doubt, I think it can be good to ask for direct feedback instead of imagining. Many people won't be honest with such feedback but many are happy to provide it because they enjoy being heard and their opinions appreciated. There are also the hypocrite types who tend to express serious judgments (sometimes very distorted ones because they refuse to engage enough to really see things) but are unable and refuse to hear and respond to criticism in a civil manner. I usually try to minimize my interactions with people who have demonstrated strong patterns like that - this is something I needed to learn, to separate realistic/constructive criticism from self-centered and overly subjective outbursts. The reason it can be tricky for me is because often people who are unfairly judgmental and prone to overreacting also have many good and insightful observations and opinions. In that case, it's good to just hear what's useful and ignore the rest, not let the unfairness get to us much.

In any case, as I said, I really think that recognizing anxiety for what it is and recognizing when we project our anxiety into situations can be very helpful. Get reality checks when possible. Try not to refuse a whole situation that is interesting just because of discomfort. All that requires conscious, cognitive processing in the moment, it cannot be obtained from analyzing the past alone or talking with a therapist in an isolated room, it takes practice, real life situations and action. I think when CBT therapists give clients homework, it is often with the purpose of such everyday life exercises. See, one thing I missed from my psychodynamic therapy experiences was this type of challenge - a T who would challenge me respectfully and realistically and provide feedback, instead of just taking in everything I bring to the sessions in a non-judgmental manner. I once met someone in a support group who used to be a T before he retired and we developed a relationship that was quite T-client-like. I found it extremely helpful and learned from it a lot and very quickly. He was a direct and no-BS person and very respectful at the same time. Not afraid of disagreements, criticism and also not afraid of providing these appropriately. Never found similar in therapy, but I know now that if I ever wanted to try therapy again, I would look for someone with similar qualities and approach.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

What I like is bringing groups together based on some shared interest or topic, much like the work teams for a project. I almost always naturally end up being one of the most active participants when the group activity has deeper substance and is based on something I am very interested in. I think it helps a lot to figure out our natural best role in groups and use that generously, because that is most likely to lead to positive experiences and reinforcement.

Thank you for many very interesting and thoughtful ideas about anxiety and groups. I especially benefited from hearing your thoughts about your own participation in groups. Work related groups have never been an issue for me, even though most of my work now is solitary or intensive work with a client. I spend a lot of time writing. I find it easy to work with other people, with rare exceptions over the years when I had an actual job and actual colleagues (as opposed to the independent consulting I do now). I would be starving if I could not work effectively with many different kinds of people, as I rarely am hired by the same group.

I'd like to figure out how to do what you do, bring people together, but that is clearly not my something I do well. I think my main issue in community based groups ATM (hasn't always been this way, mostly in the past years) is I don't feel I get much out of the group or I just don't enjoy my participation or think it's worth leaving the peacefulness of my home and interacting with others. In the case of one creative group I've been a part of for more than 5 years, it may be that I've outgrown the learning and other offerings of the group. Another group I tried just last week was a new group but with people who have similar interests as one of the best groups I was involved with half a dozen years ago. It bored me to tears. And while I think it's possible that the boredom I experience in groups recently is because they are in fact boring, I sense that is not it. I think I am lacking, or have lost, some intangible ability to engage with others in the ways that I used to. It's definitely not based on the behavior of others or how anyone treats me. But outside of group activity, I am never bored, never have been, have always found many different activities/ideas/etc interesting. So that's what I'm trying to figure out.

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

Thank you for many very interesting and thoughtful ideas about anxiety and groups. I especially benefited from hearing your thoughts about your own participation in groups. Work related groups have never been an issue for me, even though most of my work now is solitary or intensive work with a client. I spend a lot of time writing. I find it easy to work with other people, with rare exceptions over the years when I had an actual job and actual colleagues (as opposed to the independent consulting I do now). I would be starving if I could not work effectively with many different kinds of people, as I rarely am hired by the same group.

I'd like to figure out how to do what you do, bring people together, but that is clearly not my something I do well. I think my main issue in community based groups ATM (hasn't always been this way, mostly in the past years) is I don't feel I get much out of the group or I just don't enjoy my participation or think it's worth leaving the peacefulness of my home and interacting with others. In the case of one creative group I've been a part of for more than 5 years, it may be that I've outgrown the learning and other offerings of the group. Another group I tried just last week was a new group but with people who have similar interests as one of the best groups I was involved with half a dozen years ago. It bored me to tears. And while I think it's possible that the boredom I experience in groups recently is because they are in fact boring, I sense that is not it. I think I am lacking, or have lost, some intangible ability to engage with others in the ways that I used to. It's definitely not based on the behavior of others or how anyone treats me. But outside of group activity, I am never bored, never have been, have always found many different activities/ideas/etc interesting. So that's what I'm trying to figure out.

And how do you feel now about being completely self-employed and consulting? That is exactly what I fancy and have also been developing in the past couple years for myself. Right now in addition to my academic job and I am constantly on the fence whether or not it would be a good a for me to completely give up the job and mainstream academia. Just wrote about these dilemmas today on my thread about motivation. I also spent a great deal of my time writing

I also completely relate to your second paragraph about not finding groups interesting enough to sustain participation. I definitely experience similar even in my work groups or those other social groups that are based on my interests. For the work ones, I just endure it for the sake of what is indeed interesting and out of responsibility. I rarely participate very regularly in the personal ones though and that's something I've decided not to worry about and push, what would be the point, I also would not be good to anyone else that way.

On the dynamic of not having the same level of interest and ability to participate in groups as in the past, I can quite easily imagine even just reading your posts here that it may not be trivial for you to find even individuals, let alone groups, that can satisfy your mind and perhaps desire for quality. It is hard to sustain interest in that sense, I know it very well. I also socialize very differently now than when I was younger and sometimes do wonder that I lost that sense and ability, and I actually think I did lose the breadth of it. But I do find that in groups that have a few individuals I find interesting, stimulating and mature enough, it can be enough motivation to stay and even interact with the entire group. Sometimes a natural but unspoken alliance and appreciation develops with the few people that I like and that attracts and recruits more - this is basically how I built up my current work team as well. I try to pay attention not to surround myself with introverts (like myself) only because that would not be enough to cement a group. It does have to be out in the open and exposed enough for the appropriate people to find it though, which is not always easy for personal social groups. I have used meetup.com to initiate some, sometimes it works other times it does not, and the groups have never remained very long (like many years) but I personally don't have a desire to remain in the same group and interact with the same people beyond 1-2 years either and it is because I often feel I outgrow them and want to evolve in different ways, however arrogant that may sound. I keep touch with a few individuals long-term but not with groups, I even mix up my work collaborators and luckily my immediate team members are mostly trainees who move on after a few years or people similar to me that team up for certain projects but not permanently. You see, it is part of my dilemma whether I want to give up the job - the team dynamic would definitely go with that.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

And how do you feel now about being completely self-employed and consulting?

As a summary, LOVE it. It was easy to transition into doing full time consulting from having done part time consulting in the same field for 25 years. I could only give up my part time nonprofit job because I could retire and get health insurance as a benefit.

Working at home rocks; I have a great work set up. I don't need "stuff" to do my work or assistants so I have low overhead and a home office deduction is very tax efficient. Making more money in less time and I do not miss the "institution." I do miss some of the people I worked with but like you, they were trainees I supervised as opposed to the admin higher ups who I generally could live without. I miss the adoration that comes from being in a mentoring role.

I do have to travel for a few days 1-2 times/month, sometimes by car within the region but also via plane as some of what I do is in the national level and is a very specific niche/expertise. Sometimes I enjoy the travel and the parts of the country I am able to see and can take extra time to see something besides work.

I can schedule travel on my terms and availability. Currently I'm trying to slow down the pace of my consulting gigs (start them more slowly after being hired) so I have time for a creative pursuit that I love but will not help me earn a living. And once my teen leaves for college I think things will be easier. I'm also an introvert and what I do can be draining and also cause vicarious trauma.

I've done this for less than a year-- consulting where gigs are short term (anywhere from a few months to a few years for me) can be anxiety producing compared to the time when I had a full time job with benefits (or was married to someone who did). There's no guarantee that I'll have work in the future as I very rarely work with the same gubment organizations (occasionally private individuals) but I seem to have a reputation (don't advertise or otherwise recruit for work) that keeps me getting gigs. And if I needed to, my skills and experience translate into an ability to get a regular job if I needed to. And I've planned for an early retirement although I love what I do and can't imagine actually stopping this work, maybe slowing down. I don't think I would need to work for many more years at this pace if I didn't want to.

Again, I appreciate your thoughts on my struggles with groups. It may be the case where I need to come to accept that perhaps at this time and place in my life that they are just not as useful or necessary as they were when I was younger. You've given me stuff to chew on.

Likewise, thanks a lot for sharing about your work setup! What you have described is almost identical to my own preferences (including home office, creative work and travel) and how I approach strategy, financial planning etc. So you have given me inspiration to progress more in that direction and not exist in the current duality/dilemma forever. I don't expect the dilemma to go away as I've had it off and on since around the end of grad school. I have never been averse to taking sensible, calculated risks; many of my research projects have also been pretty risky and I have learned how to balanced them with more secure ones. I imagine I could do the same completely self-employed as well and I also have history and skills that could likely earn me jobs again in the future if I needed them.

I already decided not to apply for very long-term grants and not to recruit new people early last year and am currently in a situation where I could most likely wind down and make that transition fully within the next ~2 years. I really think I should do it, if nothing else, for the adventure and stimulation coming from novelty and diversity

You are a lawyer, right? I met a very good lawyer this past summer, he has a small private firm and works with a very small team, all pretty interesting people as far as I can tell. The focus is an area that brings him a very diverse set of clients but from the variety that are not fairly qualified and do not struggle with very basic life issues - employment-based immigration. He works both for individuals and organizations, I think it's an area where one can easily juggle those. That's how I became his client as well and it's been a wonderfully efficient and successful collaboration. We also developed a more personal fondness toward each-other, I think because we are quite alike in many ways, but none of us pushed the relationship to progress into something more personal - it would be a loss to do so perhaps as it was such a wonderful professional collaboration and will always be a nice memory as is. He has an office in the big city but lives in a house with his artist wife, including a studio for the wife and a peaceful, spiritually-oriented garden. They also have two adult children with great careers. It looks like a pretty good life to me, even though I would not want to live in the suburbs and a nice apartment in the city is perfect for myself at least now. He also appears like a well-adjusted, secure person who is able to understand life and human nature with depth and compassion, I believe in part because he had his own struggles as well. He does not seem to have "big needs" and is humble but quite self-confident. A good example for the kind of people I like to surround myself with, even if only temporarily, individually or in groups.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

Likewise, thanks a lot for sharing about your work setup!

I am a lawyer and licensed to practice, but I only do so in simple pro bono matters in my community. I also have a PhD in a social science discipline and do very niche work at the intersection of law and my social science speciality. I consult with lawyers and work with them as a team on certain kinds of cases. Besides my own work in academia earlier in my career and I was married to a professor as well, I know the lifestyle pretty well and I think it's difficult for people to leave it. I know it was difficult for me to go from full time to part time and I would have stayed for a lifetime if I wasn't married. But research lost its shine for me early on and it took awhile for me to realize that wasn't what I wanted. I'm much happier now and find greater meaning and purpose using knowledge to help people in the real world.

It's always good to hear people who know good lawyers, though. I hear a lot about stupid and crooked and lazy ones (and every once in awhile I have to work with one) and I feel little need to defend the profession anymore.