[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by JaneTennison1

I love that your T picked up on how much therapy bleeds into your real life and is trying to look at that with you. It sounds sometimes like you could use a break from it and I hope you find it.

This resonated with me too. I think you have a good T and a very strong relationship with him. I think it can sometimes be difficult to navigate how much emergency we are putting into using therapy to help improve our real lives and when therapy is taking over our real lives. That’s something I struggled with when I was in therapy. When I felt like I wasn’t getting “enough” from my T, sometimes it was because something wasn’t going right in the therapy and sometimes it was because I was trying to use the relationship with T to fill something that was missing IRL. I never did manage to figure out how to get therapy to improve my RL, but I have seen others do it. For me, I always kind of “obsessed” over therapy to the point it became a greater source of emotion than my RL relationships and simply ending therapy was the right choice for me. For others though who have Ts with good boundaries (like yours), I think there are ways to focus on how therapy can help you make improvements IRL without getting so wrapped up in the T relationship that you lose days a time. I just remember so vividly how this used to happen with me, so it stands out. I wish there were more resources that helped clients with this. Like, what should a client DO when this kind of preoccupation is happening? Maybe your T has some helpful suggestions for you.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by JaneTennison1

I love that your T picked up on how much therapy bleeds into your real life and is trying to look at that with you. It sounds sometimes like you could use a break from it and I hope you find it.

Yes, I think it's good he realized this as well and was concerned about it and is trying to help me do something to change it.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by healed84

LT- as much as you may doubt this now, I think your t is a good mixture of hard-***/but compassionate and that I think is the kind of t you need. He at the same time can understand your transference (I think he really gets it) and affirms those feelings, but keep boundaries and not become enmeshed as he noted you and mc seemed to get tangled in. I think consciously or not you sense that from him, and you get afraid and want to find another t who you may feel you have a little more control over, or somebody who seems a little more “emotional.” If you are going to stick with therapy I really think current t is the right guy. I think you two will do great work together. However, as always just another opinion take it or leave it

Thanks. I'm actually thinking lately that you're right--that he is the kind of T I need. I think he definitely understands the transference/attachment better now than when I first started seeing him (but kinda wish he had more background in it). I think I realize that he may be completely what I *want* in a T, but he's what I *need* in a T. Hm, maybe talking to that other T helped me realize that...

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by scorpiosis37

This resonated with me too. I think you have a good T and a very strong relationship with him. I think it can sometimes be difficult to navigate how much emergency we are putting into using therapy to help improve our real lives and when therapy is taking over our real lives. That’s something I struggled with when I was in therapy. When I felt like I wasn’t getting “enough” from my T, sometimes it was because something wasn’t going right in the therapy and sometimes it was because I was trying to use the relationship with T to fill something that was missing IRL. I never did manage to figure out how to get therapy to improve my RL, but I have seen others do it. For me, I always kind of “obsessed” over therapy to the point it became a greater source of emotion than my RL relationships and simply ending therapy was the right choice for me. For others though who have Ts with good boundaries (like yours), I think there are ways to focus on how therapy can help you make improvements IRL without getting so wrapped up in the T relationship that you lose days a time. I just remember so vividly how this used to happen with me, so it stands out. I wish there were more resources that helped clients with this. Like, what should a client DO when this kind of preoccupation is happening? Maybe your T has some helpful suggestions for you.

Thanks, it helps to hear how you characterize your past experience with T (I read much of it at the time, but it's often different looking back). It's easy to get sucked in when a T can seem so caring and supportive. I agree that there should be more resources for this (aside from PC!) and that T's should be more aware that it's happening AND know what to do to help clients with it. I mean, ex-T would comment on how much I seemed to think about therapy in general and ex-MC in particular, but it didn't seem she had any suggestions for me in how to stop doing that. I mean, "Stop thinking about it so much" isn't particularly helpful! Ex-MC certainly didn't seem to do anything to shift it either...

Hm, this seems like a potential thread on PC...

[LonesomeTonight]

T Monday. Spent first 5 minutes ranting about the winter weather that had closed schools that day. Me: "OK, think I just needed to get that out!"

I said I'd felt OK about things since Thursday's session. Me: "But I guess you assumed that because you hadn't heard from me." T: "Actually, I wasn't sure. I thought maybe you just didn't want to email." Me: "Ah OK. No, I do feel OK about what we talked about in session." T smiled: "Good." Me: "And I don't really feel the need to see the consulting T again." T: "Are you worried about hurting my feelings?" Me: "Uh...no...I just don't feel the need to see her again for now. Like I think I got what I needed and feel OK about things here for now." T: "OK, just making sure." Me: "I mean, maybe I'd want to see her again in the future? But not right now."

I said how part of it was that I realized talking to her felt more like talking to a friend in some ways, maybe because she was laughing so much? Me: "Or maybe because she's only 2 years older than me? But then you're only 7 years older, so..." I said how a someone had said maybe the friend thing could be good vs. authority figure. T: "It would be a different dynamic. What do you think?" Me: "I don't know. I could see that point. But really, I think what would be better would be to figure out how not to see you as so much of an authority figure. OK, what would really be good is to change how I think about authority figures in general." T pointed at me (one of his things): "Now you're talking." Me: "Yeah. Because I'm going to keep encountering them in life."

This led to a bit of discussion about PC. I mentioned how I hadn't shared Thursday's session until that morning. T: "Wow, that's a change." Me: "Yeah, I think I wanted to be sure about how I felt about it before sharing it." T: "How did that go?" Me: "I think it helped." We discussed how my sharing stuff about session more quickly, before I'd had time to process, could be problematic with me. Because if I wasn't sure how I felt, then I might be swayed by what other people said. T said waiting could help me better use the "LT filter." Where I'd be filtering what other people said through my own feelings. Which could help me be less affected by others' thoughts. We then talked about how PC as a whole, like a consensus of people's opinions, could almost be like an authority figure. He talked some about "group think," but I forget what all he said. So I think I'm going to wait more to post sessions.

Also talked very briefly about how I feel some friends could be like authority figures to me, specifically mentioning the person I considered my best friend in high school and in my 20s. He found that interesting. I said I needed to think more about what made someone an authority figure in my mind. Me: "That might be a good thing for me to kind of explore the week you're away..." T agreed.

Somehow we ended up talking about email. I said how my intention was to not email him while he's away (next week, like this Saturday to next Sunday). He reiterated that it was fine to email him then. I said I knew I was at a certain level of emails, so I imagined he'd charge me if I emailed then. T said I was approaching that point, that maybe he would charge if I emailed that week (not because he's away, but because of the amount I've emailed in past month or so). But how if I waited a couple weeks, could all reset.

I asked for more specifics. He said again how he hadn't really gone into this email policy in this detail with anyone, so he hadn't thought it through on that level. Me: "I guess I'm the only client who has asked for this much detail?" T: "Well, I have some clients who don't email at all. And those that do tend to fall into two categories. Some would an email that obviously requires a longer response, so it would be obvious that I'd charge for that. (he generally charges for replies taking longer than 15 minutes). And then there are some who just send me a shorter email occasionally, like once a month, so those I wouldn't charge. But you're kind of a mix of all three." Me: "Oh, OK. So I'm the confusing one, then!" (or something like that.) I forget what he said to that.

At some point we also discussed coping mechanisms, how some can be good in moderation, but then too much can be bad. He gave example of alcohol (which is one of mine). I said how emailing him could maybe be the same way. He gave me a look like "Yep, you're getting it!" I talked about maybe creating an actual list of coping mechanisms I could use, things to try if I'm struggling. He said it's a good idea, that it can be hard to think of them in the moment. And that's part of why he gave me that COPE inventory a few weeks ago, that maybe I could use that as a starting point for a list, then add other stuff to it that's not on there.

Also talked briefly about if I were to see one of his backup T's next week when he's away, would they expect me to be in crisis? And be like, "What is she doing here?" if it's just that I'm having a really rough week. T said at this point, he's let them know I might contact them, and it's fine if I see them if I'm just having a rough week, that it doesn't have to get to crisis level. I said my intention was to not use them unless things are going really bad.

Confirmed time for Friday (he asked if I could come an hour earlier than scheduled) and scheduled for week he comes back. I said I was having some doubts about seeing him Friday, which is the day before he goes out of town. Me: "I'm just worried that if we have some kind of conflict...I mean, I certainly wouldn't want to email you the night before you go out of town." T: "I could still respond to you then." Me: "But yeah, I'd feel bad. Do you still have anything Thursday?" T told me the couple times he had available and said to just text him if I wanted to change. Which I did, switching to this afternoon. It's also in part that I'm going to a concert tonight and will be home late, and he'd asked me to switch to 10:30 a.m. So this sort of makes sense on a couple levels, and I just keep having this nagging bad feeling about seeing him Friday (thanks, OCD and anxiety!)--so I feel that could have affected my session.

Felt like it was a productive session, with the authority figure discussion. No tears on my part. Anyway, when we parted ways, shook hands as he said "Good luck out there." Me: "Thanks, you too." T: "And good luck on getting that third thing done." (I'd told him at start of session that I'd had 3 work things due that day and had already turned in 2--I was impressed he remembered that at the end.) Me: "Thanks!"

[SlumberKitty]

Hey LT, it sounds like waiting to share your sessions might be a good idea. I know I sometimes need time to sort out how I'm feeling after a session. Some times it takes a day or so to settle, sometimes longer. It depends how much time I've given myself to be by myself and let stuff set. Sounds like it was a really good session. HUGS Kit

I find this whole authority figure thing very interesting because it is so different from how I relate to people. I really like to get feedback from people I respect in many different areas but, for me, that does not put them in roles of authority, more just advisors. Same for a T that I would respect.

May I ask you about it, LT? Is seeing all these people (and groups) as authority something that you like and benefit from? If yes, what are the benefits? Or is it more something that just happens in your mind emotionally and can even get in the way?

[Anne2.0]

I share Kit's perspective that it's great you found it helpful to share your sessions on here. I'm also glad that consulting with the other T was good for you.

I love Xynesthesia's question, if you feel like answering it. I run towards the side of irreverent when dealing with people in authority, and some who have tried to assert it over me when I was younger and less experienced in my field used to tell me I wasn't "deferential" enough. I approach medical people as those with "authority" in the knowledge sense-- I'm doing some physical therapy on my hand right now, and the young young therapist cracks me up and I'll follow her advice.

I don't really have a boss unless you consider the people I work with my bosses on gigs, which isn't really accurate. If I am in a courtroom the judge is an actual authority figure, in the sense that you have to do what he says. And he has the power to throw people in jail for defying him.

But even when I was doing my graduate thesis, I didn't relate to my grad advisor-- now a confidante and friend in my life-- as an authority. He was objectively wise about certain things and gave great feedback; technically he controlled whether or not I'd receive a degree but that didn't create a power imbalance. Maybe with my early history with abuse-of-power male authority figures, working with reasonable people and developing positive relationships was easy.

It is interesting to me where seeing someone as an authority figure comes from, and whether it's connected to your personal sense and zone of power. Not trying to pressure you to reply, just stating my interest in the subject area.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

I find this whole authority figure thing very interesting because it is so different from how I relate to people. I really like to get feedback from people I respect in many different areas but, for me, that does not put them in roles of authority, more just advisors. Same for a T that I would respect.

May I ask you about it, LT? Is seeing all these people (and groups) as authority something that you like and benefit from? If yes, what are the benefits? Or is it more something that just happens in your mind emotionally and can even get in the way?

Oh it's definitely not something I like or benefit from. I mean...maybe there are slight benefits at times. I think it's something that comes from my mom, maybe? I was thinking about it a bit on the way home from session today, and I feel at times, I ascribe someone "authority figure" status because I feel inferior to them in some way. This makes sense in the case of, say, a teacher/professor, because they do have greater knowledge about a subject than me. But in the case of a friend (or, I suppose, a coworker on a similar level to me), I don't think it's such a good dynamic. I forgot to include how T said it seems at times I'm...I forget what word he used--deferential maybe?--to certain people, like walking on eggshells, trying to please them, and he doesn't want that for me. Because then I can't be myself.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

I share Kit's perspective that it's great you found it helpful to share your sessions on here. I'm also glad that consulting with the other T was good for you.

I love Xynesthesia's question, if you feel like answering it. I run towards the side of irreverent when dealing with people in authority, and some who have tried to assert it over me when I was younger and less experienced in my field used to tell me I wasn't "deferential" enough. I approach medical people as those with "authority" in the knowledge sense-- I'm doing some physical therapy on my hand right now, and the young young therapist cracks me up and I'll follow her advice.

I don't really have a boss unless you consider the people I work with my bosses on gigs, which isn't really accurate. If I am in a courtroom the judge is an actual authority figure, in the sense that you have to do what he says. And he has the power to throw people in jail for defying him.

But even when I was doing my graduate thesis, I didn't relate to my grad advisor-- now a confidante and friend in my life-- as an authority. He was objectively wise about certain things and gave great feedback; technically he controlled whether or not I'd receive a degree but that didn't create a power imbalance. Maybe with my early history with abuse-of-power male authority figures, working with reasonable people and developing positive relationships was easy.

It is interesting to me where seeing someone as an authority figure comes from, and whether it's connected to your personal sense and zone of power. Not trying to pressure you to reply, just stating my interest in the subject area.

Funny, I replied including the term "deferential" before seeing your reply. I find this authority figure conversation rather fascinating. I'm going to have to think about it more (it was one of my plans during T's break). I think for me it's somehow tied into my wanting to please people. Like T talked about last session how it seems I seek praise from people I see as authority figures. I said partly that, but also how rejection or...lack of approval? affected me even more, but maybe those are kind of the same. He said it made sense that the latter bothered me more. I think it was partly that I found, say, doing well in school (which I was good at) got me approval and praise. So I got used to getting that, then if I didn't do well at something in school, college, or, later, work, it was really hard for me. It ties into my perfectionism in some ways, too. And fear of rejection and abandonment. Etc.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

Sounds like waiting a bit before sharing stuff might be a good thing to try more for you!


I sometimes wait to write stuff down for others, and sometimes don't do it at all. Sometimes I feel like writing it up right away and do so. I'd feel very pressured if I'd always share stuff right away or would write down everything. It would feel intrusive too, there's a reason why I want information I share with my T to be confidential.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Funny, I replied including the term "deferential" before seeing your reply. I find this authority figure conversation rather fascinating. I'm going to have to think about it more (it was one of my plans during T's break). I think for me it's somehow tied into my wanting to please people. Like T talked about last session how it seems I seek praise from people I see as authority figures. I said partly that, but also how rejection or...lack of approval? affected me even more, but maybe those are kind of the same. He said it made sense that the latter bothered me more. I think it was partly that I found, say, doing well in school (which I was good at) got me approval and praise. So I got used to getting that, then if I didn't do well at something in school, college, or, later, work, it was really hard for me. It ties into my perfectionism in some ways, too. And fear of rejection and abandonment. Etc.

So, I wonder what happens when you dismiss the label "authority figure" and just look at the thing itself. Because "authority figure" does have an element of deferring to someone or feeling pressure due to a hierarchy or power dynamic, and it just seems (I could be wrong, I'm not you) that there isn't an overlay or necessarily even a whiff of dominance/submission. It seems that you feel perfectly comfortable asking for what you want (thinking of your history of emailing here) even if it seems like he's not on board with that. And at times where you and he sees things differently, it seems to me that you don't adopt his perspective like a pelican swallowing a fish, but you do consider it and it seems like often the two of you end up somewhere in the middle, mostly just understanding each other better. Again, just my impression from reading your sessions, but I don't think power dynamics (which I *think* but don't know operate within an authority figure type relationship) are the thing.

But it does seem like people-pleasing is a thing for you (as you said

What it seems like to me is that this is alive in your sessions with your T. You may want to please him because then you get what you want out of the connection, approval, positive feedback, etc. Totally normal human needs. It seems like you also want him to please you, too, and maybe this is one of the ways those love languages play out, in the sense that we model for other people what we are wanting them to do for us. I do think that you've been able to say a lot of truth in the course of it, so it's not as if you are "people-pleasing" in the sense of just telling people what they want to hear. I see a lot of positivity in the way T reacts to you speaking what's true for you, even if he doesn't completely get it or agree.

T doesn't people-please back. He won't just tell you what you want to hear because he's not operating on that screenplay. And that's where the "tiger" is (buddhist reference to the monk who takes a "tiger" along on his mission because it agitates him in exactly the way he needs to work on).

So, if you frame the issue as "people pleasing" rather than seeing people as authority figures, does that change anything? Maybe it helps you see this dynamic in therapy that's troubling you more accurately, maybe it helps you explore whether this plays out in other relationships in your life.

And people pleasing is kind of like having some kind of addiction to food. You can't just stop eating like you can doing drugs. One side of people pleasing is a positive relationship skill because it facilitates connection between people. I recall loving to make my baby laugh by saying or doing silly things-- you could certainly say I wanted to please him, and to some extent I still do. I love making him laugh in that belly-authentic way. The laughing is just the manifestation that he is happy, but it's really about the connection. That it's a connection born within a positive emotion in the moment is just one way we connect and impact people. And least many of us want to be able to create connections with others, and I don't know how people pleasing isn't just part of this. The problem with people pleasing is when it compromises your autonomy or your expression of self, or where you self-censor out of fear that being true with the other person won't result in their pleasure. Where's the sweet spot of being people pleasing yet expressive and connected? At least I'm looking on finding it.

[LonesomeTonight]

Warning: very long (and I even left some stuff out!)

T Monday. First session back after he was away for about 10 days (I'm used to seeing him twice a week). He got me right on time and said "Hello" as I walked past. Me: "Hi." I went back and sat down, feeling nervous, which was probably obvious. T: "I like your sweater." Me: "Thanks." T: "I don't think I've seen you wear that one before." Me: "I probably haven't worn it here." T, commenting on its stripes: "It kind of matches the pillow behind you. Though the stripes on the pillow are the wrong direction." I turned the pillow so the stripes were going the same way, saying, "There! Better?" T: "Yes!" That exchange helped break the ice and reestablish the connection.

T asked how I was doing. I started crying as I said it had been a really long week. I started going through what all had happened, starting with Thursday night (I'd see him earlier that day), when I'd made a Valentine's card for H with a bunch of heartfelt stuff in it, like about his being a good husband, father, etc., and left it for him when I was out at a concert that night. How he just texted me to thank me and did the emoji with heart eyes, but didn't say anything else. That of course I hadn't done it with the intention to get something back, but it might have been nice of him to at least replied with, "You're pretty great, too" or something. T agreed. Me: "But then I was thinking about it, and what is he going to say to me? He probably doesn't think I'm that great of a wife or mother, so..."

T: "When is the last time he said something like that to you, like about how he values you?" Me: "Uh...I don't know. He doesn't say stuff like that much. I mean, I guess I'm not that good at saying things to him, but I've tried to do better with that lately, thanking him for doing things, then with the card..." T: "Well, if you wanted, it's something you could bring up with him." Me: "Yeah, I guess." T: "This is the sort of thing that would be good to talk about in marriage counseling." Me: "Yeah...maybe we need to do that again, I mean not with ex-MC obviously." T: "I know you said H wanted to take a break from that." Me: "Well, it will be a year in April..." T: "It's been that long? OK."

I brought up Sunday (the previous one)...D was spending the night at my parents' (Monday was holiday). We went to dinner and H ended up bringing up my cheating as an example of something. T: "As an example? Of what?" Me: "Like why he didn't tell his friends about it, because they'd always associate it with me." T: "So an example of why not to tell people about something?" Me: "Yeah, well, it involved something with you, but anyway, let's not discuss that!...H never brings that up, and I just felt weird about it." Then I talked about what happened later that evening.

Possible trigger:

I said how H and I were starting to get intimate and something he said just took me back to when I lost my virginity in college. Me: "I know we talked about it at one point, but I don't know if you remember, with the sexual thing that I wasn't sure was assault." T: "I remember." I said how I ended up talking about it the first time that night with H. That he handled it OK, but... T: "I imagine it would have been difficult to continue being intimate after that." Me: "Yeah...so I went downstairs, then felt bad about that, like another date night where I'd messed up stuff with sex."

Me: "It was when I went downstairs that I contacted your backup T's. Part of me wanted to reach out to you, but it was only Sunday, and I felt I'd have to be really clear in what I wanted from you, but wasn't sure what that was." T: "OK." I said how I heard from the one Monday afternoon, but she was out that day and didn't have anything Tuesday, then didn't want to schedule me for Wednesday because it was supposed to snow, or Thursday, but could Friday, but at that point... How I didn't hear from the other one, so called her, then heard from her that evening--she was sick, so wouldn't be in the office Tuesday but said she could do a phone call, which I ended up taking her up on. T: "So my backup T's weren't particularly available--I'm sorry about that." Me: "Well, the one was sick, so even if I'd had something scheduled with her, it would have been an issue." T: "True. Still, I'm sorry." Me: "It's OK."

I said how the backup T, "R," had been helpful. That we covered quite a wide variety of topics in the hour. And how she just helped me feel lighter. That I felt pretty connected to her and might actually want to see her again sometime, not like long-term, just maybe for another session or two at some point. T said that would be OK, that it can help to get a different perspective. I said I remembered his saying that if I started seeing one of his backup T's, it would cause a problem. T: "Not a problem with you, but maybe a problem with me and R." Me: "Uh, OK..."

T: "I want to be really careful in how I word this. Because you got upset about this the last time." Me: "You mean about the problem with you and R?" T: "No. Where I said that I wanted you to see whoever would be most helpful for you. It felt like you wanted me to say you should keep working with me." Me: "Part of me kinda did, but part of also wants you to say I should be free to see whoever I want. That you just want what's best for me." T: "Well, I do. I want you to see the person who you think will help you the most. That's the best thing for all of us." Me: "OK, thanks. I mean, for now I think it's you. I just....I talked about you a little bit to R and I feel kind of bad about that." T: "You don't have to feel bad. You should talk about whatever you needed to." Me: "OK. I mean, as I said to her, it's not like I told her anything I hadn't already told you. Though it was kinda awkward at the end when she was like, 'Do you have a crush on [T's first name]' and I was like, 'Uh, no?'" T: "She can be pretty blunt." Me: "Who is that like?" (referencing him). T laughed.

I said how that session with R had helped, but then Wednesday was a snow day (D and H at home) and it seemed like H and I kept fighting, like how I'd accidentally knocked over a box with puzzle pieces and H was starting to curse at me and I was like, "Don't curse at me! I don't need this right now." And there were just other little fights over stupid things like me trying to help find a particular nightgown for C and H getting mad at me for that. And it was these little things that made me feel bad about myself that led me to email T Wed. night.

Me: "I was trying to figure out what to say to you and I figured that I really just wanted to know that you still existed." T: "It felt like you were asking for the bare minimum you could ask from me." Me: "Hm, I guess I kind of was. I kind of felt like...I'd intended not to email you. And I'd already had the session with R. It seems like that should have been enough..." T: "You seem to be beating yourself up over contacting me when I specifically said that you could." Me: "I know...and I guess you wouldn't have given me backup T info if it wasn't OK to use it."

T: "I'm just trying to figure out why you don't think it was OK to reach out for support, where that's coming from." Me: "I just kept thinking, 'It's only 10 days. I should be able to manage that, for God's sake.'" T: "But it was a long time for you." Me: "Yeah, I was thinking about it, and it was probably the longest I'd gone without any contact with you in a year, I mean, even the week from when I saw you to when I emailed you." T: "It probably was. It's OK to need support." Me: "And in your initial reply to my email, you said it was OK to contact you again if I wanted. But then in your reply to my reply, you talked about relying on my outside contacts, so...I got the message that I shouldn't." T: "You were reading too much into it. That isn't what I meant at all." Me: "I guess it felt like it. So when I was feeling really bad Friday night--like a few days ago--I didn't feel I should email you. I was looking up crisis lines and stuff." T seemed sad. Me: "Plus, because you won't say where you're going, I didn't even know what time zone you were in, like if you were in Tokyo or something, you might not have gotten back to me till the next night." T: "Hm, I hadn't thought of that, in saying that I'll write back in the mornings, I never said what 'morning' was...." Me: "Yeah."

T: "But with the contact, I worry that maybe I've pushed too much for you to strengthen your outside network, that you might feel that's all you're supposed to use. Like when I've praised you for your success in that, you feel that you're only supposed to rely on them, and not me. When that's not the case. I'm not expecting you to stand on your own right now, to be completely self-reliant." Me: "So not 'I am a rock, I am an island'? See, I managed to fit in song lyrics. But I appreciate your saying that. I do get the message at times that I'm just supposed to rely on outside people and not you." T: "No, and I'm sorry if I gave you that message." Me: "It's OK. I'm glad you clarified."

Somehow still had a few minutes left. He asked me what had made me feel so bad Friday night. I said maybe partly that I'd wished my former best friend (from high school/20s) a happy birthday, and she'd just replied back with "thanks." T: "So it kind of rubbed in where the relationship is?" Me: "Yeah." And I said it was also some more fights with H. How I told him multiple times it was a rough week for me, and I felt in a way like he could maybe go a little easier on me. But that it actually felt like he was tougher on me than anything. But maybe it wasn't fair to expect him to go easier. T: "I think it's completely fair." Me: "OK."

T: "Hm, I just had a thought. You're used to coming in here and getting support and validation. But you didn't have that last week. So maybe you were looking for that more than usual from H, and he was coming up short?" Me: "Huh. That makes a lot of sense actually. I also think of this as a place where I can sort of have a release. And I sort of had that with R, but it's not the same." T: "Yes, I imagine it's partly at this point that this environment is a safe space." Me: "Yes."

I said I knew we had to stop (we were at like 56 minutes). T confirmed Thursday, then said, "I'll be in all next week." Me: "Good!" He said he'd held my usual slots open, so we scheduled for those. Went over to pay. Me: "I hope you had a good trip." T: "I did have a good trip." Me: "Good." T stood up and shook my hand, saying, "See you Thursday." Me: "Yes." T: "I really hope this is a better week for you." Me: "Thanks."

I felt good about the session and also kinda wished I'd reached out a little more in the previous week.

[DP_2017]

Wow, how ballsy of the other T to outright ask about a crush on T. I am a bit shocked by your answer though.

I think it's fantastic you found other ways to cope and only emailed once, that's a huge step for you and something to be proud of. The eventual goal for therapy is for clients to "fly on their own" and so every small step toward that, is great. No one says you can't reach out if need be but it's awesome that you explored other things as well and hopefully you found some of it helpful.

I agree with needing MC again, it's a good idea I think if you can convince H to do it. It sounds like it went well, so I'm happy to hear it. I hope you give yourself some credit for the huge progress you made with contact while he was away, you deserve it! Well done.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

Wow, how ballsy of the other T to outright ask about a crush on T. I am a bit shocked by your answer though.

I think it's fantastic you found other ways to cope and only emailed once, that's a huge step for you and something to be proud of. The eventual goal for therapy is for clients to "fly on their own" and so every small step toward that, is great. No one says you can't reach out if need be but it's awesome that you explored other things as well and hopefully you found some of it helpful.

I agree with needing MC again, it's a good idea I think if you can convince H to do it. It sounds like it went well, so I'm happy to hear it. I hope you give yourself some credit for the huge progress you made with contact while he was away, you deserve it! Well done.

With the "crush" thing, a lot was in the way she said it, like a middle-schooler asking her friend if she had a crush on a teacher (that was the tone of voice she used), which I think made it more awkward. Like, "Aw, do you have a thing for [T]? How cute!" She did say it's common and normal if I did because of the relationship (I was waiting for her to say she had a thing for him, the way she'd said it...). I mentioned that I do think he's attractive (I've told my T this) and have some transference stuff at times (he knows that, too). A crush is just a totally different thing to me (I've certainly had those! See: 7th grade science teacher--no, not the high school one with all the transference stuff, this was more innocent).

Thanks for what you said about my ability to cope. I know I tend to be too hard on myself (and T agrees) on that and lots of other topics. And I'll think about the MC thing...maybe if I let him (H) pick one?

[SlumberKitty]

Just wanted to say Good Job LT! Hugs Kit

[LonesomeTonight]

T Thursday. He got me 6 minutes late, which is unlike him. He apologized, said last client needed extra time, could he just give me 5 more minutes at the end? I said yes and joked that he was being ex-MC-like. Then I apologized, saying he's not ex-MC. T: "We must have some things in common." Me: "Well, you're both male..." T kinda laughed. (I could have gone with both being short, but was being nice!) Sat down, he asked how week had gone, I said better than last week. Ended up talking about sleep and sleep hygiene for quite a bit (I tend to sleep quite poorly), which wasn't my intent, but as I said, it was helpful.

Also some about how H had yelled at D a few mornings before, and it just seemed the past couple weeks he'd been yelling at her again, after being good about it since I'd talked to him a few months ago. T said how it can be easy to slip back into old patterns when not being vigilant and suggested I talk to him again. I mentioned stuff about D's sleep pattern being irregular, too, and how the mornings, getting her out the door can be really stressful. And that it can be frustrating because H won't do things like make his lunch till the last minute. T suggested using PECS cards for a schedule for the adults as well as D. It's interesting he used that specific example, because it's typically used for kids on the spectrum. It felt again like he was speaking from his own experience, as he explained ways to create the schedule, but I didn't say anything.

We were over halfway through. I said I'd had some insights since last session. One was about why I have trouble asking for help, like while he was away. I said I realized it applied to many parts of my life. Like I have pretty tight deadlines on most of my freelance work (2-5 days), so if something like a snow day happens or I'm not feeling well, can be a challenge to get things done. But I never want to ask for an extension, instead doing things like staying up late or getting up early to get it done. Yet the few times I've asked for an extension recently, it's been no problem at all. T gave me a "See? It was OK to ask" response to that. I said I figured it went back to childhood. We talked a bit about my perfectionism and that coming from my mom.

T: "This may seem like I'm simplifying things, but bear with me. It's like you feel you have to be the 'good girl.' Like you don't want to be a burden on anyone." Me: "Yes, I think that fits. I don't want to seem needy. But that keeps me from asking for help. Like I wish I'd asked for more help from you last week."

I said another insight involved my feeling bad for talking to other people about him, particularly his backup T. Me: "I think that comes from my mom. Because she'd say something like, 'Oh, what are you telling [ex-best friend] about me?'" T said it sounds like something else that came from her anxiety. How he hoped at one point I'd understand her more through that frame. That she was so afraid of someone getting a bad impression of her. I said how that made sense. He said he hoped I could understand that it wasn't necessarily something she did maliciously to me, that she probably couldn't even accept that she has anxiety. I agreed that she'd likely never admit it. And how ex-T had said that's probably why she couldn't seem to accept it in me--because to accept it in me would be to accept she had it as well.

Talked a little more about my talking about T to others, that I felt bad for saying negative things to his backup T. T: "I don't care. It doesn't bother me. You share what you need to share." I said I wondered if there was some element of my rebelling in there, in choosing to see first the consulting T then the backup T. Like, "Look, I'm independent." T said he could see that.

I said it made me think how when I was a teen, it's like I couldn't rebel the normal way. How it's normal to fight with your parents, but my mom would take it personally and get upset. And any small infraction was a huge deal. So it's like I had to suppress that. Which is likely why more of that, like smoking and drinking, happened in college and my 20s. T said that made sense. I said I guessed maybe I couldn't rebel as a kid too--"but maybe kids don't actually rebel so much as teens." T: "Uh, yeah they do! They're constantly testing their parents." Me: "Hm, yeah. Well, it was like I couldn't test mine the same way. So maybe that's why it's coming out more with you and ex-MC? Because I couldn't really do it then?" T: "That could be."

This led to him talking about the therapeutic relationship That he thought one way our relationship could help me is for me to see that we can have conflicts and work through them. That it wouldn't mean the end of the relationship. So then I could see that conflicts are OK and relationships can still be safe. I feel like he said more around that, but now I can't recall what he said that session vs. yesterday.

Confirmed for next week. I went over and paid. Shook hands as T wished me luck for the next day, when it was supposed to snow, saying he hoped would just be school delay, not closed. I said me too. T: "Take care." Me: "You too."

I was OK for a couple hours, even feeling good about what we talked about, while running some errands, then got home and totally broke down sobbing. All of this stuff just hit me, various insights. I made like three drafts of an email and finally sent it to him at like 7:30 a.m. May share that, debating. Ended up with an extra session yesterday, not because I was upset with him or anything, but because I had all these insights and wanted to talk about them sooner instead of later. Will report on that session later (was emotional and helpful).

[DP_2017]

We use those cards for my disabled sibling sometimes, it can be helpful. Worth a try

Sounds like an ok session. I would say, and this is just a suggestion, feel free to ignore it but since you already know so much of your issues come from childhood/mom and you sadly can't change any of it.... maybe try to work on things to help you going forward. Like to help you break these patterns and things. I only know of CBT and DBT off hand but there is probably other things. I know my childhood was crap but I try my best to focus on how to better my future. I'm unsure if any of the things I specifically do are CBT or DBT.

Still suggest trying to talk to H about MC, I really think it would benefit you guys. Even if you see a female of his choosing this time. Maybe one without outside contact or something that would help him feel more at ease about going.

Maybe you can keep a journal of your insights you have, and bring it in to your regular sessions or email them once in a while. That could be a good thing too try and work on too. None of us are perfect, so I'm not trying to pick on you or anything, we all are flawed and that' ok and I do support you... I'm just trying to suggest things that can help you going forward, since you have recently talked about wanting to depend less on T and things like that, which is great. I wish you all the best in your journey. Really and truly.

It's ok to be independent, seeing back up T was a great idea and it seemed to really help. Try not to be so hard on yourself about it. Imagine all the things other people have said to your T in his career, sometimes even to his face, I am sure he can handle it.... you do you.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

This led to him talking about the therapeutic relationship That he thought one way our relationship could help me is for me to see that we can have conflicts and work through them. That it wouldn't mean the end of the relationship. So then I could see that conflicts are OK and relationships can still be safe. I feel like he said more around that, but now I can't recall what he said that session vs. yesterday.

While I think he does a good job with a lot of things, I think he really shines in this issue. He sounds like he doesn't get his back up or is defensive about a lot of things other people might be. He has a nice balance of being very true to what he believes, willing to clarify when asked, and being okay with what you say and do.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

We use those cards for my disabled sibling sometimes, it can be helpful. Worth a try

Sounds like an ok session. I would say, and this is just a suggestion, feel free to ignore it but since you already know so much of your issues come from childhood/mom and you sadly can't change any of it.... maybe try to work on things to help you going forward. Like to help you break these patterns and things. I only know of CBT and DBT off hand but there is probably other things. I know my childhood was crap but I try my best to focus on how to better my future. I'm unsure if any of the things I specifically do are CBT or DBT.

Still suggest trying to talk to H about MC, I really think it would benefit you guys. Even if you see a female of his choosing this time. Maybe one without outside contact or something that would help him feel more at ease about going.

Maybe you can keep a journal of your insights you have, and bring it in to your regular sessions or email them once in a while. That could be a good thing too try and work on too. None of us are perfect, so I'm not trying to pick on you or anything, we all are flawed and that' ok and I do support you... I'm just trying to suggest things that can help you going forward, since you have recently talked about wanting to depend less on T and things like that, which is great. I wish you all the best in your journey. Really and truly.

It's ok to be independent, seeing back up T was a great idea and it seemed to really help. Try not to be so hard on yourself about it. Imagine all the things other people have said to your T in his career, sometimes even to his face, I am sure he can handle it.... you do you.

Thanks. We've talked about maybe trying some more CBT stuff, definitely more with mindfulness. I did actually try doing more journaling stuff in the past week--I'm trying to capture what I'm feeling in the moment so that I can then talk about it a few days later in session. I had done that earlier in the week, like some thoughts from Monday, and did not send him that--we just discussed in session.


And yeah, my T can definitely handle whatever criticism is thrown at him. I think I just feel bad at times if I don't seem to trust him. I also wonder if it could partly be protective for me, like I'm afraid of getting too close to him (due to ex-MC) so then I question him and say critical things to him and go see other people. I don't know...I think it's definitely good to question what's going on in therapy in general, and maybe that's something I didn't do enough of with ex-T and ex-MC.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

While I think he does a good job with a lot of things, I think he really shines in this issue. He sounds like he doesn't get his back up or is defensive about a lot of things other people might be. He has a nice balance of being very true to what he believes, willing to clarify when asked, and being okay with what you say and do.

I agree. Ex-MC, for example, tended to be very defensive if I criticized or questioned him. Which was a problem. Ex-T wasn't so good with it either. I think T is very secure in who he is as a person and as a T and is sort of "take it or leave it" about it. He will adapt some, and he has. But I also feel more free to say whatever I want to him.

[DP_2017]

That's great!

Baby T uses CBT, we've only done a little but it seems helpful so far. I like how he takes one step each session and has me dissect things, then I get homework and we go from there.

Journalling is good and I need to get back into it myself. I haven't much since T left. He used to always ask me "Is it still important NOW" because even though it was in the moment, days later it may not have been. It annoyed me at first but I started to see how it was important because we only spent time on the important things.....

Just keep reminding yourself current T is NOT Ex T or Ex MC... he's different and he keeps proving that. I feel like you are quite close with him already, it comes off that way, so maybe that's why it scares you, you wait for the other shoe to drop... and maybe it will? No one knows the future but that's why living for right now, with your T is the best. Just enjoy what you have with him today.

[LonesomeTonight]

The email I sent early Friday morning:
"Dear Dr. T,
I've had some breakthroughs since session. You're telling me you're not going anywhere, we'll work through any conflicts. And I have so much trouble accepting that. It terrifies me. So I keep doubting or questioning you, debating leaving, etc. It's like I think, obviously there must be something wrong with you if you can accept me like that. I'm certainly not an easy client. I keep thinking, even though I'm paying you, why the hell would you want to deal with me? (Why would *anyone* want to deal with me?)

So I leave session and I go to the [local taphouse] and have a couple beers because your care and acceptance and validation feels good, but I don't feel worthy of it. I try to push away the feelings. I've realized that I often seem to drink more after what I'd consider a good session because I don't know how to process/handle those positive feelings. And because they often seem followed by negative ones. Like, why can't I just sit with and accept and feel the positive feelings? What keeps me from doing that? Why do they scare me so much?

So how do I become less afraid? How do I feel more worthy? Not just of your care (or that of others), but of my own self-care and self-value and self-love? I want to stop running away. I want to stop the pushing and pulling and testing and questioning (of you, of others, of myself) and just...be. I want to stop self-medicating away or otherwise running away from both good and bad feelings. But how do I do that when I'm so afraid? Help?

Charge accepted if you opt for longer reply (or if I'm at red).
--LT"
T, a few minutes later (apparently I sent it when he happened to be looking at email):
"Hi LT,
Goodness, that's quite a lot of deep thinking and some great insights! I really don't think it's something I could effectively reply to via email even with charging for the time. If you wanted to, I could see you this afternoon or we can start with this straight away at our meeting Monday. Trust is difficult, particularly when it's been something that's eluded a person for a long time (or forever). But there is most certainly hope and growth possible, and I'm confident you can make progress.

Thanks for sharing, and you're not in the red. I'd give you a yellow. Let me know if you'd like to meet (it would be at 1pm) or wait until Monday.
Sincerely,
T"

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

That's great!

Baby T uses CBT, we've only done a little but it seems helpful so far. I like how he takes one step each session and has me dissect things, then I get homework and we go from there.

Journalling is good and I need to get back into it myself. I haven't much since T left. He used to always ask me "Is it still important NOW" because even though it was in the moment, days later it may not have been. It annoyed me at first but I started to see how it was important because we only spent time on the important things.....

Just keep reminding yourself current T is NOT Ex T or Ex MC... he's different and he keeps proving that. I feel like you are quite close with him already, it comes off that way, so maybe that's why it scares you, you wait for the other shoe to drop... and maybe it will? No one knows the future but that's why living for right now, with your T is the best. Just enjoy what you have with him today.

Funny, T actually used the phrase "waiting for the other shoe to drop" in regard to how I am with any relationship in session Friday (I didn't include that in writeup that I'm about to post).

[LonesomeTonight]

Extra session Friday. T got me 5 minutes late again. He apologized and said he keeps doing this to me. I said was OK but was starting to get nervous. Sat down. I said how I was having my usual doubts about an extra session. But it was like I felt that I was on the precipice of something--not like a cliff, but more a breakthrough. Like I just needed to keep pushing through with talking about the insights I'd had the day before.

I started in with how I seem to have trouble dealing with the good feelings I get from sessions. How do I get better at processing and accepting those? That it had been an issue with ex-MC, too, where I'd leave a session where he was very validating, then just cry the whole way home in the car. At the time I'd thought maybe it was about transference, but now I wonder if it was more that I'm not used to those feelings from people, so I don't know what to do with them. And maybe there's also an element of, I had those feelings in the office, but now I'm back out in the world. How do I hold onto them?

T said that with relationships, it seems I tend to be focusing on on the future or past rather than the present. That I'm worried about whether the relationship will last or thinking of times in the past when they didn't last. I agreed with that. T: "I wanted to discuss this part in the beginning so it wasn't what you were leaving on." Me: "Uh OK." T: "The thing is, all relationships eventually end. Even with marriage, it's right in the vows, 'till death do us part.' Unless you just happen to die at the same time." (I managed to resist the urge to quote the Smiths' "There Is a Light that Never Goes Out" there.) Me: "Yeah." T: "Your parents will eventually die. Friendships don't last forever. But when they end, you'll get through that."

I gave example of thinking before that I wouldn't get through losing ex-MC. T: "That's a perfect example." Me: "Before the rupture, I used to start crying just at the thought of eventually separating from him, even by choice. I couldn't bear the thought of it. But then I did get through it, even though it hurt." T: "Yes you did. I do feel like you have trouble working through the grieving process. Because ideally, you would get to a point where you could hold onto more of the good memories of someone. Where you seem to have trouble doing that." I brought up my grandmother (who passed 5 years ago). That she'd been so vibrant, yet the last couple years, she was bed-bound. And when she shows up in my dreams now, she's generally more in that state, rather than thinking of her as she was. T said how for most of my life, she wasn't stuck in a bed. So it would make sense for, say, 90% of my thoughts to be about that time, the positive memories, just 10% about the end.

I said I do think of her whenever the Golden Girls come up, because we used to watch it together. T smiled at that. I asked if he thought writing down some of the memories might help. T: "Maybe? I was going to suggest something with pictures, maybe scanning some old photos, making a Snapfish book. You could add a few stories in there." He said I could go over them with D, that she'd probably like that. I said maybe I'd try that.

T went back to the relationships ending. T: "Just because relationships will all end, it doesn't make them not worth having. A good example is dogs. People get dogs knowing that the dog will most likely die before them, that they'll have to deal with that loss. But it's still worth it to them, to have a dog in their life." I said I hadn't had a dog (well, for 2 days!) but guinea pigs. T: "That's an ever better example, because they have shorter life spans." Me: "Yeah."

T: "And I want you to realize that if something happens to me, you'll be OK. Or if you were to decide to leave, say, if I'm an asshole." Me: "Do you have plans for that? Do you have a day circled on the calendar when you're going to be an asshole?" T kinda laughed: "No." Me: "Though I could see that happening with you..." T: "How's that hole you're digging?" Me: "I'm just going to slip back into the bushes now..." T: "But if that were to happen, I'd hope you could still hold onto and value the work we did together." Me: "yeah, that's something I'm still trying to work on with ex-MC."

Back to the relationship thing, he said how being in the moment with people could help me. I said that's something I had to work on, because, for example, I was meeting a new friend for the first time recently, and I spent much of the time worrying I'd mess up and they wouldn't want to hang out again. But they still did. T: "I get the sense that making friends comes easily to you." Me: "I guess?"

T: "I think something else you can do is accept that you have anxiety and that it has both positive and negative effects on you." Me: "There's a positive? I mean, I guess I might avoid dangerous situations..." T: "I think it makes you a good friend. Because you're perceptive and attentive. You want to make a good impression and have the other person like you. While many people don't think about those things." Me: "Hm, I hadn't thought of it that way. I guess being anxious also makes me a good copy editor." T: "Exactly, it helps you with work, too."

We talked about how mindfulness can help me, doing some meditation. I said how I want to go back to doing more yoga, but the thing with that is, I can feel very mindful and at peace in the class, but then when I leave, it's like that feeling goes away. The same with going for a walk outside, when I come back inside, the mindfulness is gone. T: "One way to do that is to try to recreate the setting of the yoga class, say, at home. Wear the same clothes, do similar things. Then you gradually take away different elements until you can just go back to that feeling on your own. Like if you're out with a friend, maybe you can just say, 'I need a minute,' then take a few seconds to breathe deeply (he demonstrated) and calm yourself." He said it's a technique they use with athletes, so that they can be in the middle of a game, and they find a few seconds where they can pause and calm themselves.

I realized we only had maybe 10 minutes left, and I started crying again. I sort of rambled, said I knew I wasn't making any sense and the sobbing likely wasn't helping. He said was OK. Me: "I feel like lately I've sort of had one foot out the door in here. I'm not sure if you sensed that, too." T: "I do have that sense." Me: "Like questioning things, seeing the consulting T, the backup T. And I wonder if in some ways that's me being afraid, like afraid to really face myself and change. The term I keep thinking of is 'I want to be all in.' I know that's a gambling term, but it's like I need that. I feel I should just sort of commit to doing this with you and really do it, instead of running."

T: "Maybe instead you should just accept that you're feeling ambivalent about things right now." Me: "Hm, OK." T: "For me, I have to conduct therapy with the assumption that a client is going to stay and proceed like that. If I keep thinking they'll leave, then maybe I wouldn't try as hard or something. So I just assume they'll keep coming back. But for you, it might help you to accept that you're unsure right now, and that's OK." Me: "OK. I guess 'acceptance' is kind of a theme today." T: "Yes."

I started sobbing again, saying, "I just want to get better." T gave me a caring look. Me: "It's like I'm tired of feeling this way. I feel like I'm ready to change. Instead of starting and then slipping back." T: "Change what?" Me: "Just...everything. Taking better care of myself, the drinking thing. Just doing the work to really get better, to be able to handle life better, to just deal with my issues." I said I was thinking of this song by the band Typhoon. Me: "One of the lyrics is, 'Oh what am I waiting for? A spell to be cast or for it to be broken.' And in a way I feel like that, what am I waiting for?" T: "OK. What kind of band is that, thrash metal?" Me (joking): "Yes." Me: "And another line is, 'When am I gonna feel better? I have been patient for a long time now.' I said it then switched to 'I've been a patient for a long time now,' mainly referring to the singer's Lyme disease as a kid. T: "That's a nice play on the phrase." Me: "Yeah. Part of me wanted to play the song for you, but I feel weird doing that right now."

T: "I'm sorry that you've had so much therapy and are still struggling so much." I thanked him. I said maybe it just wasn't the right therapist before? T: "Or maybe you just weren't ready then." Me: "Yeah. I feel like I'm ready now." T: "Good." I said I knew we had to stop. And that I probably was going to keep my Monday session. T: "Well, you know where to find me if you change your mind."

Threw my giant pile of tissues into the trash, then paid. T shook my hand, saying, "Have a good weekend, OK? Doctor's orders!" I said I'd do my best.