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  #51  
Old Dec 05, 2019, 08:18 AM
ArtleyWilkins ArtleyWilkins is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight View Post
This seems like a very extreme view regarding firing the client and possibly getting a restraining order. If T's fired all their clients who googled them, I doubt they'd have too many clients left... I think it's natural to be curious about someone to whom you tell your deepest, darkest secrets. Sure, many, possibly even most, clients might not care, but others do. I don't think they should automatically be punished for that curiosity unless they cross a major line.

I've googled quite a bit about my T (he knows much of it, and he's said some bothers him a little bit, but he certainly hasn't fired me for it), but I don't feel I pose any sort of threat to him, and he seems to agree. I think it's a natural curiosity. I'm not going to figure out where he lives and then show up at his house and spy on him (incidentally, many T's work out of their homes, though mine doesn't). I'm not going to figure out where his wife works or his son goes to school and then show up there.

I think if a client talks about Googling their T (beyond, say, checking their license or CV/resume), then that should just lead to a conversation about why the client felt the desire to Google. And if they wanted to talk about anything they found, ask questions (of course the T is not obligated to answer). Maybe some discussion about boundaries, like, "I understand your desire to google me, and that's OK, but I ask you not to look up anything about my spouse or children because I want to protect their privacy." I also think it's a T's responsibility to lock down any social media they have (like if they have a Facebook page, keeping it private) to the best they can, if they don't want any clients seeing it.

[climbs down off of soapbox]

But I still don't think T's should Google their clients.
I agree that people just need to respect basic boundaries on both ends.

There are clients as seen right here on PC who bypass security measures, finding roundabout ways to get into their therapist’s social media anyway. That’s not okay and really becomes stalkerish. It is ridiculously intrusive and I don’t buy the excuses of helplessness and excuses that we just can’t help ourselves so the therapist just should put up with it.

If you behave, for whatever reason, in a manner that leaves a person, any person — client or therapist— feeling intruded upon and even victimized by boundary crossing, you — client or therapist— has the right to expect that behavior to stop and to dissolve that relationship if they no longer feel emotionally or physically safe because of that behavior. The person’s excuses, be they “professional” or due to mental/emotional state don’t change the fact that the person on the receiving end has been left feeling uncomfortable or unsafe.

MM, if this has left you feeling unable to work with this therapist, you are perfectly within your rights to get another therapist. I still personally believe it is a double standard to condemn another person for behavior we display ourselves, but the bottom line is it bothers you. So, find a different therapist if you feel this is a red flag for you.
Thanks for this!
Rive., susannahsays

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  #52  
Old Dec 05, 2019, 08:33 AM
stopdog stopdog is offline
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I think the OPs concerns are quite valid based on the standards those guys set up.
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  #53  
Old Dec 05, 2019, 08:36 AM
stopdog stopdog is offline
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Originally Posted by nottrustin View Post
well, here where I live, they dont actually go to court. We set up a teleconference call with the court house. The DA and lawyer come to our facility. We have a large conference room set up.
I know they do this in some jurisdictions but I (and many others )have fought against it in mine. mds have to come to court just like every other litigant.
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Please NO @

Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.
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Well Behaved Women Seldom Make History - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
  #54  
Old Dec 05, 2019, 09:14 AM
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nottrustin nottrustin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheltiemom2007 View Post
It is a double standard. A therapist can't check you out but you can have access to the names of her children and where she lives? That's just wrong. In my opinion no one should Google anyone in a therapeutic relationship. It's a breech of boundaries. If I were a therapist and I found out a client was looking for personal information about me and my family, I'd fire the client and depending on the client get a restraining order. It's a safety issue among other concerns. Likewise, therapists shouldn't Google clients. If a client wants a therapist to know something the client will tell the therapist. Anything else is private.
I suspect many Ts expect it on some level. My T told me she googled here providers. She googled to find if there any licensing issues, frequent complaints by clients etc. She didnt look for things like their children, person lives. etc. So I suspect clients would do that.
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  #55  
Old Dec 05, 2019, 09:28 AM
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nottrustin nottrustin is offline
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Originally Posted by stopdog View Post
I know they do this in some jurisdictions but I (and many others )have fought against it in mine. mds have to come to court just like every other litigant.
In our case it has nothing to do with the Dr not wanting to go to the courthouse. It is for the safety and privacy of the patient. We take very few cases to court. More often than not we either have stabilized the patient enough and discharged them or the client once on some of the medications kick in realize they need help and agree to become voluntary. The other thing we really try to do is work with the patient and all lawyers involved. Often the day of the hearing, before the proceedings start there is a lot of discussions by all those involved (Dr, DA, patient lawyer, independent medical examiner, familymembers, client outside providers, etc) to come to some type of agreement so the client is discharged as soon as possible but also safe.

Our facility hates going to court because frequently these are clients known to is from other admissions and we know it can effect the theraputic alliance.
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  #56  
Old Dec 05, 2019, 09:31 AM
ArtleyWilkins ArtleyWilkins is offline
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Originally Posted by nottrustin View Post
I suspect many Ts expect it on some level. My T told me she googled here providers. She googled to find if there any licensing issues, frequent complaints by clients etc. She didnt look for things like their children, person lives. etc. So I suspect clients would do that.
Agree. I don't think that's the kind of googling we are talking about here generally. That's pretty normal, expected, and part and parcel to living today and shopping for services. And it doesn't sound like this therapist did much more than google location on the OP which seems pretty basic and wouldn't require any in-depth searching, but the OP is bothered by it and certainly can decide to change therapists. It may be unrealistic, however, to expect that no therapist or client would ever google a client's or therapist's name for general information, and we all have basic information about us out there.

When the searching becomes more intensive and does get into another person's private life, however, that just becomes nosey. Respect for privacy, and even the ability to maintain one's own privacy with any surety, appears to be a thing of the past unfortunately. And some of us have been on the receiving end of serious electronic and physical privacy violations so this is not a minor issue for us. Once you've had someone invade your life to the point where you've felt unsafe, that experience rather changes your perspective. I suspect many therapists, themselves, have had those kinds of experiences and that can certainly drive how they react to any perceived boundary violations, electronic or otherwise. There is some crazy stuff that happens out there when people go a bit off-rocker with their intrusion into people's private lives. Been there myself. Not something I wish on anyone.
  #57  
Old Dec 06, 2019, 02:03 PM
Anonymous46653
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The psychologists and psychiatrists that I knew were never THAT interested in the lives of their patients once they left the office. I remember that one of them would relax or watch tv or socialize once off the clock. He really wasn't that interested in their clients lives, and he was a very good clinician. After work, he didn't want to have to deal with anything work related. That even included looking up patients. He kept his work life COMPLETELY SEPERATE from his hours off.
  #58  
Old Dec 06, 2019, 02:08 PM
Anonymous46653
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Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins View Post
I agree that people just need to respect basic boundaries on both ends.

There are clients as seen right here on PC who bypass security measures, finding roundabout ways to get into their therapist’s social media anyway. That’s not okay and really becomes stalkerish. It is ridiculously intrusive and I don’t buy the excuses of helplessness and excuses that we just can’t help ourselves so the therapist just should put up with it.

If you behave, for whatever reason, in a manner that leaves a person, any person — client or therapist— feeling intruded upon and even victimized by boundary crossing, you — client or therapist— has the right to expect that behavior to stop and to dissolve that relationship if they no longer feel emotionally or physically safe because of that behavior. The person’s excuses, be they “professional” or due to mental/emotional state don’t change the fact that the person on the receiving end has been left feeling uncomfortable or unsafe.

MM, if this has left you feeling unable to work with this therapist, you are perfectly within your rights to get another therapist. I still personally believe it is a double standard to condemn another person for behavior we display ourselves, but the bottom line is it bothers you. So, find a different therapist if you feel this is a red flag for you.

That and blaming the therapists for not having locked up their pages.
  #59  
Old Dec 06, 2019, 04:49 PM
Salmon77 Salmon77 is offline
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Quote:
it doesn't sound like this therapist did much more than google location on the OP which seems pretty basic
I might have missed this getting clarified somewhere, but my initial read of the OP was more "where I'm from" as maybe meaning ethnic or national background. Like if the client had a name that was typically (just grabbing out of the air here) Korean or something. That seems like a more personal issue than, "OP lives in Sunnydale" or whatever. But I could be mixed up about this.
Thanks for this!
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  #60  
Old Dec 06, 2019, 07:58 PM
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LonesomeTonight LonesomeTonight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmon77 View Post
I might have missed this getting clarified somewhere, but my initial read of the OP was more "where I'm from" as maybe meaning ethnic or national background. Like if the client had a name that was typically (just grabbing out of the air here) Korean or something. That seems like a more personal issue than, "OP lives in Sunnydale" or whatever. But I could be mixed up about this.

This was my understanding as well, because the T said she only googled the last name.
  #61  
Old Dec 07, 2019, 05:42 AM
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divine1966 divine1966 is offline
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It doesn’t sound that she googled YOU. More like googled ethnic or geographical or what not origins of your last name. It’s not private info.

Of course coincidentally your family might be the only people on this planet with that name (like in my case) but I suspect therapist didn’t know that

Of course you could still feel bothered by it. But still I don’t think it’s the same as looking you up
  #62  
Old Dec 07, 2019, 11:19 AM
Anonymous46653
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Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight View Post
This was my understanding as well, because the T said she only googled the last name.
If it was just the last name, maybe she googles anyone with an unusual last name. But, normally people would just ask the person where they are from instead of going through all of that. My last name is short and unusual, so many people ask my ethnicity instead of googling me.
  #63  
Old Dec 07, 2019, 12:12 PM
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susannahsays susannahsays is offline
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I don't really see it as a moral issue, but it seems like bad therapy for a therapist to Google a client. The therapist is supposed to be working based on what the client presents with in therapy, not based on information gleaned from outside sources not introduced by the client. The only exceptions to this would be court mandated clients and minors, but even then it is acknowledged that having that sort exception is not ideal in therapy and has a negative effect.

It might feel weird to have a therapist learn things about you without your consent since many times, you provide official consent before your therapist will talk to someone about you. While your therapist doesn't technically have to get your consent to be on the receiving end of information (so long as they don't confirm you are a client in any way or say anything about you), I can't really think of any way therapists can initiate the receipt of information about clients other than the examples I mentioned that doesn't require client consent. Googling you sort of bypasses the issue since your therapist didn't have to identify you as her client - but I don't think what she did followed the spirit or intention of the rules regarding client consent for the release/exchange/receipt of information.

I think it's weird she Googled where you're from instead of just asking you - especially since she apparently had no problem telling you she was curious about it. I think being interested is good, but not to the point that she can't wait to ask you something until she sees you. Just seems odd.
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  #64  
Old Dec 07, 2019, 12:30 PM
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susannahsays susannahsays is offline
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Originally Posted by sheltiemom2007 View Post
If I were a therapist and I found out a client was looking for personal information about me and my family, I'd fire the client and depending on the client get a restraining order. It's a safety issue among other concerns. Likewise, therapists shouldn't Google clients. If a client wants a therapist to know something the client will tell the therapist. Anything else is private.
You can't take out a restraining order just because someone Googled you. You couldn't even take out a restraining order if they were looking for personal information. Unless they threatened to physically harm you, or actually did so, it would be extremely difficult to get a restraining order. You might be able to get one if they harassed you after termination to the point that it amounted to psychological abuse and interfered with your daily life, but that has to be really extensive.

Confidentiality would make it even more difficult because you could actually get in trouble for sharing communication from the client if there was no imminent threat to you.

In any case, taking out a restraining order seems like a massive overreaction to me. If you didn't feel threatened or unsafe until you found out they had Googled you, then odds are you are overreacting - unless you're treating someone convicted of violent offenses or something. For example, if you are a woman treating a serial home invasion rapist and you find out, you might be worried. Anyway, the courts are not going to restrict someone's individual freedoms based on feelings - there has to be a clear threat based on persistent actions.
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  #65  
Old Dec 07, 2019, 03:52 PM
sophiebunny sophiebunny is offline
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If you have a client you know is a stalker, has antisocial personality disorder, a history of harrassing other therapists, violence and so on...the therapist has got good grounds to be worried for her safety. There are some very dangerous people seeking therapy. You wouldn't know it if its not you, but your psychiatrist and psychologist certainly know who they are.
  #66  
Old Dec 07, 2019, 04:27 PM
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HD7970GHZ HD7970GHZ is offline
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Hi Mindmechanic, I really like this topic. You have put a lot of thought into it, as have other members. In my opinion, no therapist should google their clients unless it is a matter of safety. The therapeutic relationship is inherently unsafe as it provides a power imbalance with zero accountability to a therapist. Perhaps some therapist can handle the impact that googling a client could have, but it certainly could create issues in the therapeutic alliance if those searches lead to any sort of counter-transference reaction. Considering how terrible and unethical the industry is when it comes to counter-transference, I would deem googling a client unethical and potentially dangerous. Thanks, HD7970ghz
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  #67  
Old Dec 07, 2019, 04:34 PM
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nottrustin nottrustin is offline
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Originally Posted by sheltiemom2007 View Post
If you have a client you know is a stalker, has antisocial personality disorder, a history of harrassing other therapists, violence and so on...the therapist has got good grounds to be worried for her safety. There are some very dangerous people seeking therapy. You wouldn't know it if its not you, but your psychiatrist and psychologist certainly know who they are.
Yeats ago we had a patient who after being with us for a while and discharged he started making death threats towards the psychiatrist. The doctor has very minimal online presence however if a person googles enough they can find his wife and then google a bunch more figure out about his children and where he lives.

The client also was able to figure out the Doctors work schedule. I was asked to help find a picture of the patient for the office he works at (if in the chart or whatever or even online if there was anything. I found own on FB. We had discussions with the hospital lawyer and management to see if it was ethical to use the pictures. It was decided that based on the severity and nature of the threats it was important to have a picture for safety reason. It was not handled lightly though
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  #68  
Old Dec 08, 2019, 11:24 AM
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susannahsays susannahsays is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheltiemom2007 View Post
If you have a client you know is a stalker, has antisocial personality disorder, a history of harrassing other therapists, violence and so on...the therapist has got good grounds to be worried for her safety. There are some very dangerous people seeking therapy. You wouldn't know it if its not you, but your psychiatrist and psychologist certainly know who they are.
It's as if you didn't read my entire response. I specifically stated that there are exceptions and provided an example. I was responding to your blanket statement that you would get a restraining order if you found out they had Googled you. You did not qualify this statement by specifying the policy would only apply to certain rare types of clients.
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  #69  
Old Dec 08, 2019, 12:08 PM
Anonymous46653
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The thing is this: if she googles you about something that she could have easily asked you, what if comes to something that is more invasive. Is she going to continue googling you?

I think if you are uncomfortable with her behavior, you should discuss it with her. If you don't find her helpful at all, I would just look for another therapist to work with.
Thanks for this!
LonesomeTonight, susannahsays
  #70  
Old Dec 08, 2019, 07:48 PM
Rive. Rive. is offline
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I think the T acknowledged she messed up and won't do it again. Is it to be (for therapists): one mistake and they are fired? Isn't anyone allowed a second chance?

What if clients make many such mistakes? Are they to be given chance after chance?

There needs to be some perspective here. The T admitted what she did and held herself accountable. By all means, address the upset of T googling you if that is the case but yes, there needs to be some perspective. Is her blunder enough to get her fired? Or is she allowed to be human and as such, fallible
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  #71  
Old Dec 09, 2019, 12:22 AM
Anonymous46653
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Originally Posted by Rive. View Post
I think the T acknowledged she messed up and won't do it again. Is it to be (for therapists): one mistake and they are fired? Isn't anyone allowed a second chance?

What if clients make many such mistakes? Are they to be given chance after chance?

There needs to be some perspective here. The T admitted what she did and held herself accountable. By all means, address the upset of T googling you if that is the case but yes, there needs to be some perspective. Is her blunder enough to get her fired? Or is she allowed to be human and as such, fallible

Now take notice that I said IF she is overall not helpful than why even bother continuing. I never said to just let her go because she googled her.
Thanks for this!
LonesomeTonight
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