Couch 217: The Order of the Phoenix couch

It’s a a good question. I’m not hoping that J can fix me—I don’t believe I can be fixed—but I am hoping that he can tolerate my illness. I’ve been trying to be open and honest without pulling for caretaking. I’m not sure if I’ve gotten the balance right but that’s what I’m trying for.

Thanks, @@

Yeah, I think that the, “you can’t be yourself, chihiro” thing is what is giving me a bad taste in my mouth, why I don’t want to talk to T about J. Or I guess more precisely T is saying, “you might be able to manage to be with J but you’re going to have to work really hard to not be/act so effed up if you want to make it work.”

T’s point was that instead of saying, “I had a nightmare” I said, “I woke up fearing that you don’t like me anymore,” which pulled for a particular kind of response. But, like, I want to be honest ffs. I don’t want to build a relationship built on evasions and half-truths. And what really pissed me off is that he didn’t seem to believe me when I said I didn’t do this on purpose—he wanted me to interrogate my agency in this event when my experience is that I didn’t have any.

The way J feels about this? He said it scared him to find me sitting up whimpering. But like literally I have never done anything like this before; I felt scared too, and out of control and surprised that I found myself in that position. I hope like hell it doesn’t happen again ffs. J also said that he felt afraid about the prospect of needing to support me during s really bad time with my mental illness, that he was afraid he wouldn’t know whatnot to do. I told him that wasn’t his responsibility—that’s what shrinks are for—but he said that part of a partners job is to be supportive when things are difficult, in whatever way difficulties present themselves.

I don’t know. What I do know is that this thing with J feels really nice, and so few things in my life feel really nice, and I don’t like T raining on my parade and complicating things and making me doubt everything. I know that difficulties will come up with J, but why should I try so hard to anticipate or manufacture them? Can’t I just let my joy run its course, like a fever, and deal with difficulties when they come?

I'm not sure if these are young hawks, or what kind of birds they are. We saw them in our backyard earlier high up in our mesquite tree. One of them was grooming himself and both were completely oblivious to us standing there staring at them! I took like 20 pictures haha

An email exchange:

Dear [T],

I’ve been thinking about this thing with J in a simplistic way: this fledgling relationship makes me happy. I’m so rarely happy. Can’t I just let this happiness have its head, run its course? Didn’t Peter Fonagy say that some things weren’t mentalizable, things like CSA, things like falling in love? I have to work so damn hard to keep my head above water most of the time; why do I have to work so damn hard in this too?

[c]

————————————

[c],

This is essentially what you have been saying over the past two weeks. I think that I have shared my concerns about this approach many times at this point, but clearly you are not as worried about it. (Personally, I do not see reflectiveness as at odds with happiness, but it seems like you might, at least right now)

I do not want to keep having the same conversation about this, as I do not feel like this is helpful for you. If you are going to take this stance, I would at the very least ask you to consider two things:

(1) What are the potential risks of the approach you are taking?
(2) How do you propose we spend our time in sessions?

Best,

[T]

Six Quick Questions to Help You Identify Red-Tailed Hawks | Audubon

You lucky dog! They are beautiful!

I kind of agree with your asshole of a therapist about being careful, chihiro - especially in communicating things that are likely to make him feel like he has to take some sort of action or be super careful because he knows you feel insecure. In this example, what you communicated would probably cause the average person to feel somewhat pressured to provide reassurance and feel the need to prove something. While that's not a huge deal, if it becomes a habit, it can be exhausting for a partner. From what you say J said, it does sound like the disclosure caused him anxiety. Pay attention to that.

I don't think it's wise to wait until there are problems in the relationship. You really seem to like this guy and it would suck if it didn't work out because you couldn't bring yourself to be mindful of the dynamics.

I'm also sorry you feel like you can't get better. I often feel like that, but that doesn't mean I can't make improvements in how I regulate myself and react to things. For me personally, it would be difficult to be in a relationship with someone whose MI causes issues between us if they weren't actively trying to improve. I don't think I would be very receptive to the idea of tolerating something if there was no effort in improving the situation. Maybe if you're feeling hopeless with this therapist, you should consult another.

I’m considering registering for a fall course.

Lone dog is very interested in the course on Dog Psychology. New cat says taking that would indicate favoritism.

**soapbox warning**

chihiro - there is a lot about your therapist that I question. Regarding his comments on how your therapy has changed since the relationship with J - I think he's being both premature and blunt. Premature because the shift of focus in your therapy has only been a few weeks. And what does he really mean by "I haven’t been really engaging in therapy"? What would being engaged look like? What are you doing that is not being engaged? You are showing up, you are sharing what is currently on your mind. I know you've addressed these questions, I'm still not sure what he is expecting from you or what is his agenda with your therapy?

Blunt because he's right that if you are not mindful of what is occurring between you and J, things might not go well in the long run.

Regarding being yourself and your response to the nightmare (“I woke up fearing that you don’t like me anymore”), my take on this is that there's probably lots more discussions with J on what you need around your illness than what is shared here and maybe with T. If not, I'd agree that that kind of statement could be something that might lead to a bad ending if J has not done a lot of work himself and is able to hear that type of stuff and stay open/curious about your experience, leaving it all with you. That is pretty hard for most people. What I have learnt around trying to find that balance is to name or comment on the distortion and desired need/want from what the distortion is before sharing what is the distorted thought. This allows me to be me, to share what my illness is projecting in my head while trying to help my wife from taking ownership of whatever is going on inside me. We can then (usually after some calming happens) discuss more about what it is that set it off or what I'm needing or fearing. I'm still a long ways from being good at this and it still might not be the best way as I am also trying to find that balance.

In your situation - waking up in that panic state will clearly need time before your system can get to place to be curious about what occurred. Should you get there or want to get there? When you are ready, yeah, it would be helpful to be curious as to why or where this panic state came from, what the nightmare was and so on. Perhaps you have done that, perhaps you are not ready to do that. Your statement about not wanting to do that type of exploration simply indicates to me that you are not ready to do so. Perhaps it feels too vulnerable/scary to do so. Perhaps there's feelings of unfairness (other people don't have to work this hard/this way in their relationships...). Perhaps so many possibilities and that's where some of the "being curious" statements might be coming from.

In regards to I guess I believe that relationships are work and if you want this one to work, you gotta put in the hard work of learning how to communicate your experiences in an authentic way while respecting/addressing how that communication impacts your partner and the relationship.

After reading Elio’s thoughtful post I am starting to wonder whether other people react differently to nightmares than I and those I know do. I have nightmare disorder, so this scene has played out often in my life when I’m with someone:

Me (waking up from a nightmare, sometimes being woken up by the other person because I’m screaming or crying in my sleep, when I can talk again): Sorry, I had a nightmare.
Other person: That’s OK. It looked pretty intense, what was it about?
Me (describes nightmare)

And when someone tells me they had a nightmare I ask the same question: what was it about?

So tbh I’m not sure the topic of the nightmare could have been avoided at all even if it had not been offered right away. But perhaps my experience is abnormal.

Thanks for the smile, BCM.

chihirochild, I don't like hearing about women feeling pressured to manage away their emotions in order to be more acceptable to men. Control your nightmares, be wary of seeking comfort, use therapy properly, don't ask for too much, watch yourself, watch J, and on and on and on. Life is constricting for women and I feel overwhelmed by it sometimes - this post might be my projections. I hear your male therapist telling you that you are not conforming to his therapeutic standards and I hear some pressure for you to manage J's place in the relationship as well as your own. Let J manage his boundaries so you can concentrate on your own. I think there is value in reflection and in paying attention to what is happening, but there is not much value to be had in trying to squeeze yourself into the "emotionally acceptable to men" hole, whether it be your therapist or your partner. It's a small hole and it will harden your heart.

that resonates super big time for me as well with some things in my marriage.

On my way to the next state in my trip. After this is done, I'll have stayed in 4 states in 1 week which is pretty cool. Saw 1 of my older brothers and his 2 boys that I've never met. His kids are the exact ages as my 2 boys. Kind of got ambushed by my brother though about H and I didn't even know he knew what has been going on. I haven't talked to him in 3 years but he talks with my mom and another brother. Going to go to the lake house today and then meet up with my cousin tomorrow until I leave Wednesday morning.

Thank you for this rich and thoughtful post, Elio!

I'm not totally sure what T wants me to be doing to be more "engaged," either. I found his email to be cold and kind of judgy rather than warm and instructive. I wish he would tell me clearly what it is that he thinks I need to do.

And... hmm. I guess I'm just not sure what kind of mindfulness or work it is that I need to be doing? The relationships I've been in have never required such a thing. Compromises and discussions with the partner in question, yes, but like I haven't been having to scramble along on the sidelines keeping myself sane/healthy in order to participate. Is there a book or something, a set of guidelines? (Wishful thinking, I know.)

I can see how what I said in that moment is less than ideal. But, like, I was panicked and blurted it out. Am I supposed to somehow arrange my life and psyche such that I never get panicked? Learn to censor myself better in moments of distress? I dunno, I can see that I'm being defensive about this. But it honestly felt like I couldn't do any better in that moment.

I dunno. I'm getting all mixed up. It's like I can't think clearly about this.

Thanks, susannah -- I do like this guy, and I don't want to screw it up by being inattentive. I guess I just don't know how to be attentive, what I need to be working on? I get that there are some things that I could communicate that could make J feel like he has to take care of or fix me, and I don't want that to be the dynamic... but I don't want to feel like I'm constantly censoring myself, either. Do I work on not feeling insecure, then? Rather than working on not saying that I feel that way?

I guess I should modify what I said about getting better--while I don't believe I can be "cured" or "fixed," I do believe that I can improve. I've worked my butt off trying to improve ever since this mental illness thing struck in med school. And things have gotten demonstrably better than they used to be, fewer hospitalizations, no more SH, etc.

Oh heck yes.

I think this is a more articulate version of what a small but insistent part of my soul has been saying. I don't want to have to diminish myself, wax and pluck and primp myself in order to be palatable to the men in my life.

I'm not sure why T can't just accept where I am and work with me there instead of criticizing me. And yeah, if J is unable to tolerate who I am in all of my messiness, if he is only able to be with me if I can put on the appearance of someone without baggage, then he is not the right guy. That'd make me really sad if it turned out to be the case, but better to know that early than find out later and pay for it.

See, in my marriage things were very much reversed and even very much from both parties, so I don't see this as a men telling women to manage away their emotions thing. I do think relationships where one or both of the people in the relationship struggle with trauma, depression, anxiety, etc. are especially strained if it leads to people feeling as if they have to take care of each other's mental health, particularly if that means they do it to their own detriment. It isn't about stifling emotions, but it is about clear and honest communication, personal owning of your own stuff, honest and healthy boundaries, and constant respect for each other. That's just the stuff of good relationships.

I don't hear her therapist as scolding her as much as trying to get her to not suppress and avoid her own issues in therapy perhaps because he is concerned that approach may come back to blow up on her later. I kind of think he's telling her the exact opposite of "hold back your feelings." I think he's asking her to keep working in therapy on her issues so she CAN continue to enjoy the benefits of a positive relationship outside of therapy. If a new relationship is correlating with nightmares and other issues and you don't take a look at that correlation and see if you can figure out what is going on (and it probably has absolutely nothing to do with the new relationship itself so much as the connections our minds so oddly make very much subconsciously), then those problems that creep in can start getting larger and can impact that relationship. I just see a therapist seeing that happening and asking a client to be willing to look at that SO the relationship can continue to be enjoyed.

Lasting relationships are work. It sounds like you value this relationship, and you have hopes that it will last. Do you have a fear that if you work on your issues in therapy you'll decompensate and that will negatively impact your relationship? I can remember times when I had that thought and kind of went into a mode of shutting down those issues in order to manage whatever it was in my present. Sometimes that was really the only choice I had (like when my husband was in the ICU), but other times it was really just shooting myself in the foot because eventually it built up and was harder to manage when it all came tumbling out at once.

I don't know. Know thyself and just be honest with yourself about whatever is going on. Let J know that he is not responsible for your mental health AND let him know what he can do that is helpful - maybe just giving you space or listening without advice, or heck, making you a nice cup of tea - whatever. Spouses have this tendency to want each other to "be better"/"feel better", and to that end they can do too much or the wrong things and ignore their own emotions in the process. Communication without strings attached is hard.

chihiro, don't stress yourself out by trying to define "work" in a relationship or putting pressure on yourself to do this "work." That won't help. (What you say about compromises and discussions--that was already doing work. Your therapist has a different view of the work you need to do.)

Yes, relationships require work. But if your relationship with J fails, don't think it's just because you didn't work at it. Relationships can fail however much work one or both partners put in, just like a therapeutic relationship or therapy can fail however much work the client does.

And I still think the person to talk with about this is J. Because only the two of you know what work would really, well, work.

ETA: ooh, and speaking of working at relationships, I just found una's Xmas present! (Don't click if you don't like bathroom humor.)

You do know that we're in the middle of a rapidly intensifying pandemic, right? Visiting a bunch of random people all over the country and then traveling to spend time with somebody in their nineties sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

Thanks for the warning. I didn't click but just because of the warning I know it sounds right up exhankster's alley.

The therapist can't make you talk about this date if you don't want to do so - simply don't talk about your dating life with the therapist. Clients get to have boundaries as well. Therapists are not god.

Theres a cat - whats not to love? THANKS MOM,!!!

There is another one on gaseous emissions with a raccoon on the cover. I had trouble deciding between the two but I went with the cat cover.

I don't know who I find more obnoxious - the covid deniers or the self appointed covid shamers.

That would have been a toss up cats versus raccoons in terms of cute animals. Although I thought cows were noted for their gaseous emissions. I more associate raccoons with rabies - which not being a bodily emission would not interest exhankster in the least.