Couch 229 - Acetominphen and

I looked up strozzapreti. Yum. I will def. be there in my striped fuchsia cleavagey dress. Will there be sequins too? I'd even do sequins.

Called FedEx; someone's coming out to inspect the apartment lobby tomorrow (I dunno why -- to make sure that the package I called them about isn't sitting there despite my having called them?) and some sort of supervisor is going to call me within 24h.

At least I had time to set up the bed frame I ordered so I'm not sleeping on a mattress on the floor anymore.

T has a right to boundaries and the patient has a right to say she doesn't like those boundaries.

As the patient grows, the relationship must change. If the patient sees that T's boundaries are arrogant and selfish, that is growth. And maybe time to move on.

P.S. The relationship is the therapy and T is part of that. Hence it makes sense to question the boundaries.

P.P.S. It is not therapeutic to get everything you want. But it is not therapeutic to get nothing you want, either.

And scoccia palle.

Yeah some people will not be having a good time! i mean, way to name a noodle!

Hey, hayman!

My neighbors have a rooster now -joy at dawn

Sequins AND glitter. Also tie-dye shoes.

How do the animals feel about this?

I’m not arguing with any of this, but the problem is, LT’s therapist did not go to the Couch School of Therapy and subscribes to almost none of these principles as far as I can tell.

So the real question is, when client and therapist are of different schools of thought about therapy, what’s to be done?

NP, you're correct that there wasn't a boundary set around shaking hands, aside from it presumably not being allowed now due to COVID. Dr. T and I shook hands at the end from the first session onward--at the end of the second, I asked if he normally shook hands with clients or if it was just after the first session. He said was up to the client's preference, so I opted for hand shaking.

The only reason it's really coming up for me now is because I mentioned it in relation to going back to meeting in person, how I assumed we couldn't do that yet. And he said, "Did we used to shake hands? I can't remember." So *that* bothered me some. I have no intention to pressure him to shake hands now. (I may ask a simple question, but if the answer is no, I'll let it go--I don't see that as pushing someone's boundaries.)

I do agree that therapy seems like a logical place to explore boundaries. And I wish he was more open to doing so. Like he can refuse to do something, sure, but then have a discussion around why it's important to me, what meaning it has for me, maybe also discussing similar boundaries that others place and my reaction to them.

I think in many ways *he* makes it all about himself rather than exploring things and potentially learning something about myself and how I relate to others. Like, "Was there another time you wanted something from someone but they wouldn't give it? What feelings did that bring up for you?" I mean, sometimes (the standing thing jumps to mind), I've even said, "I don't think this is actually about you," but then he said that he thinks it it is. Which is frustrating...

Sorry, I just had to respond to this part.... I understand that your parents bullied you, and didn't let you express any part of your authentic self without quashing it with negative trash from their mouths. That's truly awful.

But among adults, when someone crosses a boundary and says something hurtful or cruel, or homophobic or racist, or whatever...this is the exact right thing to do! You challenge the person with an "I" statement..."I feel hurt by what you said," or "angry" or whatever word fits. You share why you feel that way.

Yes, you hope their behavior will change because, yes, this is a boundary for you. Maybe the boundary is "I don't hang out with people who tell racist jokes." Maybe the boundary is "Please don't comment on my weight because I have a history of an eating disorder and that can cause problems for me."

The other person then gets to decide: is my relationship with MobiusPsyche important enough that I'm willing to respect her boundary? Or would I rather be able to tell racist jokes or talk about her weight? I'm not forcing them to do anything. Freedom of choice, baby!

If "accepting people as they are" means putting up with boorish behavior-- and this is not directed at you, una, but at the human race in general-- then count me out.

Sorry, I just had to express how I felt...

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I'm curious as to what the Couch School of Therapy would look like. Especially as some of us have different thoughts on what therapy should be. I'm sure Stopdog's class would be quite different than some others, for example.

As for the question, I suppose the easiest answer is for the client to find a therapist who more closely fits their school of thought. But I also think there's benefit to trying to take what one can from a therapist who sees therapy differently. However, I imagine there's a limit as to how helpful that can ultimately be. Like if it just keeps leading to conflicts, is it really that helpful in the long-term? Or are those conflicts part of what lead to growth and change? (These are things I'm considering for myself.)

Yes, this is similar to what I was trying to get at--thanks for explaining better than I could!

This argument—growth and change come from conflict, so conflict can be good—kept me in an abusive marriage too long and several other toxic or non-productive relationships, including a therapist.

Life is short, and growth comes from a determination within to develop and challenge oneself, not from conflict with others.

One point of this whole discussion has been that you keep running aground on the same rocks with Dr. T. Never mind who’s responsible, rocks don’t yield—but you can row away, or navigate differently, or keep punching holes in your boat by running onto the rocks.

[QUOTE=atisketatasket;7097438

How do the animals feel about this?[/QUOTE]

As far as I can tell, none of my guys notice. I think it wakes me up because the inherited cat is often outside at dawn and I don't want the cause of chicken noise to be because he is in their yard

I fully admit I have no idea what the point of talking to a stranger is - I tried it, it did nothing useful in terms of why I hired them, I finally stopped. There was certain pleasure in arguing with the first woman and watching her lose it, there was use as a place to vent when my person got sick although the therapist had no bearing on it - a demented gibbon would have sufficed, and the second was interesting to watch just because of how differently she responded than the first one did -but none of their response made any difference to me in why I hired them in the first place. It was at best a diverting hobby for a few years but nothing like what therapists describe themselves as (I was shocked when the first woman described herself as kind - certainly that was not my experience of her) and nothing like what some clients describe. I might have liked the experience better had I thought the therapists were doing anything useful or if I felt like they were saying insightful things - but I didn't. Talking to them did nothing for me and I honestly do not see how it ever could or would. I haven't found anything that adequately does explain that to me - it is like how I see religion. I find it ridiculous in general and horrifying in specific instances, but a good number of others don't -even to the extent to kill, enslave, and torture in the name of it.

These are good points. Dr. T will say, "We've done well working through conflicts before" and how it ultimately makes the relationship stronger. In some ways I guess it has.

However, there's something else he says about a different topic: where, say, if he told his colleague that he thought she looked hot that day, then that would always "live in the relationship." And I think that conflicts can do that as well. Where maybe in some ways it's stronger (like we worked through this once, we can do it again), but there can also be some permanent damage, an erosion of trust. And conflicts can just get tiring after a while, especially when they're around similar topics. Plus, then they lead me to avoid those topics, which I don't think is good either.

He made a comment on Friday, when I sort of wanted to talk about a particular thing but was unsure how he'd react. And he said the way I was being so cautious in my talking, it was like I thought I was about to step into a bear trap at any minute. And that really seemed to encapsulate it. I shouldn't have to tread so carefully around my T...

Why does the reaction of the therapist matter? A therapist can be acting happy or unhappy or whatever -not the client's problem in my opinion. Mostly I think they are acting (even over-acting or exaggerating their response) rather than it being accurate.

For me, if someone is telling me to lose weight or otherwise trying to direct me and my choices- I would be like not your problem we are not going to talk about it. If someone says something homophobic for example - I might say I disagree or walk away but if I otherwise like them, then I still would deal with them (I have a very religious right wing conservative friend -we have been friends since high school and we have never agreed on religion, social issues, etc -but we have been friends for almost 50 years even though we don't agree with each other on most topics - she sees me as a godless sinner in need of salvation with a lifestyle that she sees as wicked and I see her as a religious whackball who could cheerfully kill and torture in the name of her religion = we know this about each other, we can even play with each other over it - but we generally agree not to provoke each other intentionally). I think the boundary is I can accept this person or not . I can choose to leave when I have had enough -I consider that the boundary rather than dictating what the other person does or doesn't do. I don't see it as being does the other person want to be in relation to me enough to do what I tell them is right.

Still feeling vulnerable and fragile today.

Where the heck is this stuff coming from? (Good topic for T right?) It's really frustrating because I have grown accustomed to a sense of complacency or even competence at times, so this vulnerability and fragility is frightening.


I had dreams about my sister and the boyfriend last night. Not good ones either. Why this is bothering me so much, I do understand at least partially, but it is her life and my job is to be supportive. But I'm having trouble supporting something my deeply held religious beliefs are firmly against in my own sister. If it were a friend or a colleague I doubt I would be reacting this way. Just with someone that at times I am extremely close to, and the children of course being involved, has made me feel very fragile indeed.


On a better note, Mom felt well enough to make dinner last night. She slept most of the day so Dad did the shopping and the laundry and some of the cleaning. He is going to do more cleaning today and some cooking and possibly some laundry. We are having my NY bosses over tonight. I thought it would be nice although now I am a little frightened at the prospect, but I think that is my social anxiety getting the best of me. I'm sure it will be fine.


On another note, brother-in-law's birthday is coming up on the 24th. I'm torn between sending him a card, sending him money and a card. Sending him nothing. Etc. I don't know what the right thing is to do in the situation. He will forever be my nieces and nephew's dad so I feel I ought to do something. He is family regardless of whether he is the black sheep of the family and no one really likes him. I feel some sort of sense of duty to do something for his birthday. Since my sister is still married to him I feel more obligated to do something like money and a card. He didn't get me anything for my birthday but not that I expected him to. I have no idea the "right" thing to do in this situation. I guess go with my gut right? My gut says send money and a card. My head says send just a card. My mother says, send nothing.


I hate feeling vulnerable and fragile. I feel like I could break into tiny pieces at any moment.

I spent my morning swim constructing a course list for the Couch School of Therapy. Feel free to add.

Una: Freud and Why He’s Awesome
Art: Dream Interpretation
SD: What To Do If You Get Sued
ATAT: The Therapeutic Script: What to Say on Any Occasion to Any Client

ETA: And of course CE will teach The Importance of Performing Hair in Therapy.

My T has always emphasized the fact that his job is to help me feel better. That being said, he has always pushed me to learn and use skills to improve my emotional tolerance among other things. While I sometimes hate him for this and there has been no lack of ruptures (sometimes due to him simply being an arse) I have to admit that I have learned a lot and although I still have a long way to go, my level of distress has drastically decreased over the past 4 years.

LT, I have observed you experiencing so much distress due to things your T has said or not said, or things you have expressed that you want him to say or do. It seems to be an ongoing circle and I really wish your T would help you develop the skills to make these thoughts and feelings less painful. One thing I have learned through 5 years of mindfulness and DBT skills practice is that I cannot change or expect to change other people. I can only control how I deal with the distress caused by others; sometimes that means leaving the relationship. I have the choice to either fight for what I want and deal with the distress it causes, or use the mindfulness skill of accepting what is without judgment. The act of learning to sit with distress can be painful but well worth the effort. While the later is not easy and takes a lot of practice, it does reduce the distress level.

Working with the knowledge that you cannot force him to stand, start in person appointments, give you a stone, or respond to an email a certain way....is it worth it to push the issue which appears to increase your suffering? It is not necessarily a bad thing to accept some things as they are, that can be a sign of growth as well. If you decide it is worth the effort and possible additional pain and distress to push the issue, it may be helpful to use the DBT DEAR MAN skill to increase your chances of getting the result you are looking for without the other person taking offense.

Sorry if I have overstepped my welcome and I wish you the best.

Don't send the BIL anything. He's only family on a technicality at this point. That's why I'm so curious why you're having such a hard time with your sister having a boyfriend. Is it because she's still legally married? Is it because she's not married yet to the boyfriend? I might be concerned that she's in a rebound relationship or that it's too early to involve the kids in this new relationship. Wasn't her husband abusive? If so, she needs time to heal before getting into a new relationship and all the more reason to not send the BIL anything.

Disclaimer: I'm not religious and only see marriage as a legal contract that confers certain rights and benefits and as a personal commitment, not through a God-lens at all.

I agree with NP, Kit. A card at most. And I assume he’s a grown man with a job, so money seems impersonal and unnecessary, plus you’re often short of money yourself.

Thanks NP_Complete. I'd feel better about the new relationship if my sister had divorced or legally separated from BIL. For a few reasons. One of which is religious. Another of which is that she works for a religious organization which has a moral clause in her contract which she is violating, actually both parties are violating, he works for the same religious organization. They could lose their jobs over this relationship. And the fact that all the kids from his relationship and her relationship are involved and keeping secrets and having to deal with way too much stuff. I am worried she is rebounding. Yes BIL is abusive which is why I understand why she wants to be with someone new. But I don't think she has significantly healed from the relationship. I've suggested counseling with a neutral third party. She did counseling through her religious organization which expects her to go back to abusive husband. Argh. She seems happy though so that part I am happy for. I just see so many pitfalls and potential mine fields that they are walking through. I don't know what to do with BIL. We are never much on speaking terms but as she is still legally married I feel duty bound to do something for him. (What if they get back together and I didn't do something for him that would cause an even more strained relationship with him than I already have?) And I don't want him to be upset that no one did anything for his birthday and take it out on the kids. I'm trying to solve my sister's problem. I know. This is why I need to talk to my T, Dr. K. I don't understand where all of my feelings are coming from. I just know I have them. And I'm having trouble processing them.