Would you see an unvaccinated T in person?

Whoa, she has a responsibility to disclose her vax status to you! It sounds to me like she is not vaccinated and doesn't want to let you know. I would not be inclined to see a T who hasn't been vaccinated, but even more, I wouldn't want to see a T who refused to disclose essential information to me. That would be a real deal breaker for me.

I have to disagree @Rive. In a pandemic with a respiratory virus where vaccines and masks offer simple ways to take precautions no way do I think the therapist has a right to claim its protected health info, I bet she doesnt even understand HIPAA.

Trainers, doctors, therapists: is it OK to ask professionals if they’re vaccinated? | Coronavirus | The Guardian
When Can I See My Therapist in Person Again After Being Fully Vaccinated?

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Factors to Consider The decision to see your therapist in person depends on your personal comfort levels and risk perception. “When you can see your therapist in person after the vaccine would be up to [your] therapist and you, to be honest, and what protocols they have in place,” Jessi Gold, MD, MS, assistant professor at the Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis Department of Psychiatry, tells Verywell. “You might be vaccinated but still not convinced you can't bring back a new strain to a sick child or family member at home, so that might not make you want to see your therapist in person or may make you more cautious about safety protocols.” Experts recommend that you ask about your therapist’s vaccination status before deciding to see them in person. To be on the safe side, they should be fully vaccinated as well. “Most healthcare providers have now been offered vaccines, but many have chosen not to be immunized or to delay immunization," Beyrer says. "Since they may have considerable exposure due to their occupation, clients should not be meeting face-to-face with unimmunized therapists."

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Originally Posted by Rive. No, I would not see an unvaccinated T in person. Then again, presently, I would not even see a T who *was* vaccinated. Your T is right btw, medical information does not have to be disclosed. It is private and protected information. I don't see how her vaccination status should impact your wearing a mask or not though. It is not because one is vaccinated that one can't catch it nor transmit it... What I do find strange is her not wearing a mask to protect her clients (then again, she may have reasons for that). I would also not project that she was religious or homophobic or the reason she is referring you out. You don't know that for sure,

Whether she’s required to disclose strikes me as immaterial. The fact is she either cannot truthfully say she is fully vaccinated or, despite being vaccinated, she will not do you the courtesy of putting your mind at ease by disclosing that.

Putting on hold the question of whether she’s cultishly anti-science, reactionary or transphobic, she simply isn’t taking your need for safety seriously. What is the point of a therapist who doesn’t care about your safety?

Vaccinated people can still spread covid.

She can have her reasons for not getting vaccinated without needing to explain. She might have an underlying condition. Adverse effects are also real.

My ex T has updated his bio to say that he's fully vaccinated.

She should tell you to allow you to make a decision if you're comfortable with seeing her in an enclosed space or not.

The transphobia vibes you've picked up says she's not a good fit for you.

Like Favorite Jeans, for me it's an issue of respect, and I see her actions as clearly putting her needs before yours in a particularly callous --and unethical-- way. There just wouldn't be any relationship worth pursuing at that point for me.

Oh @ChickenNoodleSoup Please dont think I am arguing or disagreeing with you. I am super passionate and a vaccine outreach coordinator. I had to dig for some info about this myself.

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Originally Posted by ChickenNoodleSoup It's her right to not disclose the information, but I'd be bothered if my T didn't tell me and got hostile over the question. Yes, it's a personal information, but so far everyone I've met talks about it. People in a store I often go to "oh, are you vaccinated yet?", I have asked my dentist whether he's vaccinated... my T disclosed getting the vaccine without me even asking. Anyways, I'd wear a mask regardless of what her answer was. Vaccinated people still can spread the infection if they get it, so better safe than sorry. And since you'll switch in a few weeks anyways, I'd probably not dive into the topic more. If this was a permanent T, I'd honestly probably stop seeing them, not due to not being vaccinated but due to not disclosing it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...942_story.html

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In these situations, they might be wondering whether they can ask the potentially loaded question: “Are you vaccinated?” “Not only do they have the legal right, but I think they have an obligation to their own health and safety to ask the question,” said Lawrence Gostin, faculty director of the O’Neill Institute for National and Global Health Law at Georgetown University. “It’s an entirely appropriate and logical question to ask if someone is going to be in very close, personal contact with you: whether they’ve been vaccinated.” It is not a violation of the oft-cited HIPAA federal privacy law to ask your doctor or dentist or other health-care workers, as well as people who provide close-contact services, including hair stylists, aestheticians, massage therapists and physical trainers, whether they are vaccinated. “It’s awkward, but it’s not illegal,” said Robert Gatter, a professor with the Center for Health Law Studies at Saint Louis University’s School of Law. “If they share it with you, that’s their choice.”

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Gostin agreed. “It’s absolutely lawful and ethical and understandable from a deeply human point of view to want to know if the person that’s coming into close contact with you is vaccinated.” Your employer can ask whether you’ve received the coronavirus vaccine — and even require it There are also legal — and ethical — reasons those who are asked, especially health-care professionals, should answer honestly, experts said. People, regardless of their profession, could face legal consequences if they lie about their vaccination status, then infect others with the coronavirus, Gostin said.

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Getting vaccinated is more than a good idea. It’s an act of civic responsibility. So clinicians who tell you that vaccination is a “personal decision,” as if it doesn’t affect, and therefore concern, anyone else, are making an all-too-common mistake. Your chiropractor thinks the current health of his own family is all that’s relevant, because he’s not considering that he might infect an elderly stranger and cause her death. (One C.D.C. study suggests that a majority of Covid cases were transmitted by people who weren’t symptomatic at the time.) He isn’t very likely to do that at work, of course, assuming he’s taking the proper precautions, including masking and ensuring proper ventilation in the small room where he works. Even so, his clients would be still safer if he and his assistant were vaccinated. That’s why it isn’t a personal decision, in the intended sense. Getting vaccinated, for those without medical contraindications, is more than a good idea; it’s something we owe one another. It’s an act of civic responsibility. And note that the C.D.C.’s recent “at ease” guidance for the vaccinated is predicated on the unvaccinated’s maintaining proper vigilance. When an unvaccinated health care worker caused an outbreak in a Kentucky nursing facility this March, residents who were vaccinated enjoyed a relatively high level of protection, but 18 became infected nonetheless, and one died. The elderly seem at particular risk for “breakthrough infections,” to be sure. Still, when people choose to be unvaccinated, they have chosen to increase the risk to others.

Is It OK to Ask Health Care Providers if They’re Vaccinated? - The New York Times

Hey @ArtleyWilkins the link and excerpt I posted here i had in another thread. This is one of the best basic overview/summary's I've read so far regarding privacy and Vax status, or how to ask about it from providers.
It validates why you want to know and deserve to know.

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Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins Absolutely not. I am already forced into the position of teaching students face-to-face without knowing their vaccination status, students who are not required to mask, in a state that isn't required to even let me know if I have students who out on quarantine awaiting testing results. I would not see a therapist or doctor who I was aware of not being vaccinated - no matter what their reasoning. I'm vaccinated but I'm not bullet-proof. Sorry, but I spent 100 days watching my husband being tortured by Covid and I watched him die in front of my eyes. Call this the anger stage of grief perhaps, but I am beyond the point of tolerance. (Sorry, but this rant comes as I have received an email from a student who believes he has Covid, is awaiting test results, and no one in this school has bothered to inform me. Last school year, I would have known.)

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Getting vaccinated is more than a good idea. It’s an act of civic responsibility. So clinicians who tell you that vaccination is a “personal decision,” as if it doesn’t affect, and therefore concern, anyone else, are making an all-too-common mistake. Your chiropractor thinks the current health of his own family is all that’s relevant, because he’s not considering that he might infect an elderly stranger and cause her death. (One C.D.C. study suggests that a majority of Covid cases were transmitted by people who weren’t symptomatic at the time.) He isn’t very likely to do that at work, of course, assuming he’s taking the proper precautions, including masking and ensuring proper ventilation in the small room where he works. Even so, his clients would be still safer if he and his assistant were vaccinated. That’s why it isn’t a personal decision, in the intended sense. Getting vaccinated, for those without medical contraindications, is more than a good idea; it’s something we owe one another. It’s an act of civic responsibility. And note that the C.D.C.’s recent “at ease” guidance for the vaccinated is predicated on the unvaccinated’s maintaining proper vigilance. When an unvaccinated health care worker caused an outbreak in a Kentucky nursing facility this March, residents who were vaccinated enjoyed a relatively high level of protection, but 18 became infected nonetheless, and one died. The elderly seem at particular risk for “breakthrough infections,” to be sure. Still, when people choose to be unvaccinated, they have chosen to increase the risk to others.

Is It OK to Ask Health Care Providers if They’re Vaccinated? - The New York Times

Well, I can only speak for my country, but here, vaccination status is - like a lot of other information - private health information that is protected by privacy laws. You CAN always ask. People are, however, not obligated to respond. What you do with that answer if it's a therapist or doctor is up to you, but it is not mandatory for them to disclose such things.

I'll add a small note as to why I think it's kind of important: if you ask and then answer is no, and then you go "why not?" and they say they have an autoimmundisorder and can't take it, now it's suddenly not just a decision anymore, now you know a lot more about their health. And unlike only a free decision, not all Ts would want to share such a diagnosis with their clients.

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Originally Posted by ChickenNoodleSoup Well, I can only speak for my country, but here, vaccination status is - like a lot of other information - private health information that is protected by privacy laws. You CAN always ask. People are, however, not obligated to respond. What you do with that answer if it's a therapist or doctor is up to you, but it is not mandatory for them to disclose such things. I'll add a small note as to why I think it's kind of important: if you ask and then answer is no, and then you go "why not?" and they say they have an autoimmundisorder and can't take it, now it's suddenly not just a decision anymore, now you know a lot more about their health. And unlike only a free decision, not all Ts would want to share such a diagnosis with their clients.

Of course no one is obligated to answer. No one is obligated to be honest either. Say you ask if your therapist if she’s vaccinated and she says no; all it does is give you a cue to wear a mask. Of course it might trigger questions of why but the therapist is already adept at keeping her own info private anyway right ? So a client asks. Therapist says no. Client asks why. Therapist says it’s personal or private information and offers to: wear a mask or suggest her client wear hers. What county are you in ? I’m just curious.

The completely avoidable and irritating thing about the whole situation is the therapist could’ve easily slipped on a mask herself, offered the client a mask or encourage the client to wear their own mask.

Absolutely not. One of my major life stressers over the past year has been my husband's health. In my sessions we frequently talk about all that is happening: my fears of him dying, my fear of him getting COVID, my frustration over how long it is taking to get all the tests and the results, my frustration of others being vaccinates and consequently us still not going to group gatherings, etc.

IF my therapist were not vaccinated or refused to tell me she were I would absolutley not see her. It is all moot becausE we have also discussed each of us getting vaccinated as soon as we were eligible and our fristration with those not getting it. Also she is still only doing virtual appointments.

Two things:

1) You’re inverting the power differential of the relationship here. Therapists are not likely to go down a rabbit hole of awkward personal follow-up questions asked by their clients. They can leave it at “I’m not vaccinated for personal reasons” and the client can do what they want with that information.

2) There are precious few true medical contraindications to covid vaccination (esp given that in most places more than one vaccine type is available) and almost every autoimmune d/o is just more reason to be vaccinated. Currently people on certain biologicals, taken for autoimmune conditions, are on the very short list of folks for whom a third vaccine dose is recommended (in my area).

What does someone's vaccination status have to do with *others* deciding to wear masks. Being vaccinated does NOT provide immunity. One can *still* catch and transmit the virus. A T could be vaccinated yet they can get infected and transmit it to their clients. Wearing a mask is for one's protection. And ought not to be dependent on other people's vaccination status.

And sorry but yes, revealing one's vaccination status IS protected health information. Just like a health professional ought not go ask that question to a patient, or if they did, said patient is NOT obligated to reveal this as, again, it is private, protected, health information.

Actually, it is not protected information per HIPAA (not wanting to get into a debate, but this is often misunderstood). Just passing along the information: Does HIPAA prohibit questions about vaccination? - Harvard Health.

Exactly, HIPAA only prevents medical professionals (including therapists) from providing medical information about their clients/patients to others. Not about themselves. They can choose not to answer a question about their own vaccination status (whether for Covid or, say, measles), but they can't claim HIPAA as the reason.

Wearing a mask is not just to protect one's own self -but also to protect others from you

I would ask her to wear a mask.

No mask, no session.

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Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins Actually, it is not protected information per HIPAA (not wanting to get into a debate, but this is often misunderstood). Just passing along the information: Does HIPAA prohibit questions about vaccination? - Harvard Health.

I included articles about that very thing in those links I shared.

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Originally Posted by Rive. What does someone's vaccination status have to do with *others* deciding to wear masks. Being vaccinated does NOT provide immunity. One can *still* catch and transmit the virus. A T could be vaccinated yet they can get infected and transmit it to their clients. Wearing a mask is for one's protection. And ought not to be dependent on other people's vaccination status. And sorry but yes, revealing one's vaccination status IS protected health information. Just like a health professional ought not go ask that question to a patient, or if they did, said patient is NOT obligated to reveal this as, again, it is private, protected, health information.

No one said vaccines provide immunity who said that?
I don’t think I understand your point about catching Covid after vaccination and then transmitting it. No one said you wouldn’t be able to transmit it. If you have a breakthrough case, you are contagious just like if you had no vaccine and you caught Covid.

You literally just said a therapist can be vaccinated and then transmit it to their clients! Which is exactly why this therapist should’ve either put on a mask, reveal their vaccinations that is, we encourage the client to wear a mask. Of course masks are for a personal level of protection, but if you understand the way Covid it is transmitted and how cloth masks work(not n95) everybody else’s respiratory droplets get sprayed into the air every time you breathe talk sing etc.

so if John Doe refuses to wear a mask and coughs or talks and gets all up in everybody’s personal space all throughout a grocery store one day he is spreading it. Now Jane Doe wears her mask. So she is less likely to inhale the obnoxious droplets coming out of John doe. However if John Doe and Jane Doe both wear their masks think about how wonderfully protected everyone will be?

I don’t know you and in a perfect world it would be great if we didn’t have to rely on other people being vaccinated but unfortunately contagious viruses like Covid don’t work that way. And because it is so contagious, and deadly in addition to long term consequences, AND is now making people sick across all demographics, it’s time to think of the greater good. Not to mention doesn’t anybody care about overwhelming the health system?

I am so over people comparing it to the flu, or citing statistics that imply that only 1% of people actually get sick and die or that 99.9% of people recover. Show me that source and where I can look it up and then I’ll believe it.

I’m not saying this is how you feel, but in the very beginning people just kind of blew it off all together because it was only the old people, or those terrible people with comorbid conditions dying and flooding the hospitals not us “normies” and many people callously said that it was their fault that they had these conditions or were old so… sucks to be them?
Now all sorts of healthy people including children are flooding the hospitals to the point where there’s no other available intensive care beds, so you would think it would be a no-brainer all the nonsense would stop. And yet it continues!

Arent there other people who care about their community and society and humanity? When the hell did we get so lazy and selfish that A cloth mask is now being compared to your constitutional rights being violated?

No one likes to be dependent on somebody else’s healthcare choices ( or lack of effort ) but virology and immunology doesn’t work that way. Herd immunity is not just letting people die off until the virus goes away- it also means to artificially create herd immunity so it protects most everyone.
Many times I hear people bring up statistics regarding the Spanish flu. All told the Spanish flu worked itself through North America (USA) in roughly 2 years. If I remember correctly there was an initial peak and then some seasonal peaks I think there were two large ones. I think the world death count for the Spanish flu is like 50 million.

In particular the reason why it spread so crazy fast was because there were no standards for preventing the spread of illnesses and disease. They did not know enough about it. And we were literally in the middle of a world war so the Spanish flu was free flowing across all the continents.

Even more importantly because of the world war almost all governments involved refused to allow any sort of reporting or sharing of information about the virus. Each country was operating with own rules in the dark. The second wave was the most deadly due to the fact that the mutation in Europe was infecting at a faster rate, infecting children and the old, and also middle-age people. And even though quarantining was a basic measure of sense, no country would do it.

I bring up things like overwhelming the healthcare system for good reasons. For the Spanish flu the other major factors that made quarantining, caring for, and even burying all of the sick or dead people was because of a nursing shortage. In that case it was due to the fact that the government had redirected most nurses or available nurses to war efforts. So there just wasn’t enough nurses at home to take care of all of the sick people. Oh and nurses were getting sick as well.

Anyhow in 1918, lack of knowledge, military ambitions and ill prepared healthcare systems were the greatest contributors to the death counts.

Now we have all of this information and understanding and yet…. Here we go again. @rive you said we shouldn’t be dependent on other peoples vaccine status. Is that an across-the-board statement? Are you saying even the very young, the very old and vulnerable should not hope or rely on the good sense of other decent people to get their vaccine and help with community spread and protection ? So who should we be dependent on? Who are we supposed to look to for advice and medical information? How can we collectively work on making this virus go away?
Did you attend school? Did you attend public school? You are required to provide vaccine information for your children or yourself to attend most public schools. And they just come right out and ask you right there in the school office, that information is not private.

And another thing, local departments of health are responsible for tracking outbreaks of anything. Whether it’s an intestinal virus, or a global pandemic, their job is to monitor, study, track, educate and mitigate whatever The current threat is. Doing all of that requires statistics. Where do you think they get those from?

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Some more opinions :

What to do when a client insists on knowing my opinion on a sensitive subject? : psychotherapy

I asked my last last therapist what her political status was. She told me she’s not supposed to discuss politics but she knows it’s important to me so she told me. She wasn’t a **** about it at all. I plan on going to my session tomorrow but wearing a mask. I hope that doesn’t cause any tension between us. I should be getting into seeing my next therapist soon. They told us she would have room in September and put me on a waiting list. Tbh I’m going to miss this therapist even if she’s not vaccinated. She communicates with me through email and has had some pretty good suggestions on how to manage my anxiety. The only thing she said she can help me with.

I certainly hope she doesn't have an issue with your wearing a mask, if it makes you feel more comfortable.


Regarding politics, I was very clear on what mine are, and I never came out and asked my T (well, I sort of hinted around, but he didn't take the bait). But during the last election (well, the months leading up to it), he ended up sharing his own views, which I think he only did because they were similar to mine. And I felt some relief knowing that. I can definitely understand a therapist not wanting to share. Though, in your case, I'd think it would be helpful if a T at least indicated that they're an LGBTQ ally.

There was a sign outside the door today that said masks are required. I was waiting for her then she opened the door and I heard her grumble to another coworker “I hate these masks” but she kept hers on the whole time. But then I mentioned my new mask feeling weird and she said “yeah those masks look like birds beaks. But these masks aren’t doing anything anyways” and that comment peeved me a bit and I said “it’s not just the masks. It’s the masks and the vaccines and the social distancing.” And she said “yeah ok.” Then she had me leave 15 minutes early. I didn’t realize it until I got to the car and my mom told me the time and said I left early.

Jeeze who pissed in her coffee this morning. I sent her an email asking why we ended so early because I can barely afford therapy every other week let alone every week. So I’d like to get the most out of my sessions.

I’m kinda contemplating not going back to her. We just don’t share the same beliefs and it’s hard to connect to someone like that. I’m in line to see another T Probably after Labor Day So I wouldn’t be without one for too long. But I don’t get what is with all these unprofessional therapists.

Ugh, that's really wrong that she made you leave early. Plus her comment about the masks not doing anything. I can definitely understand not wanting to go back to her... I hope you can get the new one soon.

I don’t know. She emailed me back and claims our sessions are only 50 minutes but then why does my schedule say they are an hour. I don’t know. Maybe I’m the one in the wrong. Or else I’m being gaslighted real good because I’m not understanding anything she’s doing or saying.

Yeah, I'd have all sorts of issues with her attitude. Other options?

Appointments may be scheduled by the hour, but I've never had a therapist actually go a full hour - basically 10 minutes between clients. Makes sense actually.