Im in therapy, but this book my T suggested seems to imply that suffering is an illusion. Suffering is a joy that brings us more enlightenment. so.. do i need therapy then? really? Does that mean i dont feel pain from abuse? or shouldnt? That whole concept confuses me.

[MissCharlotte]

((Esther))

What book are you reading?

It sounds very much like some of the buddhist readings I have been doing.

I believe the pain of your suffering is real. Your abuse was real and so is the pain.

I know that some spiritual masters of many beliefs try to get us to understand that suffering can be transformed--through an understanding of the suffering of others--that creates a common bond with humanity. Then, the connection with others can be experienced as joy.

I suppose that ultimately, therapy can be ended and we can enjoy a fuller life, connecting with others. Hmmmmm--I'm so not there yet.

(((((((((((((safe hugs)))))))))))))))



(formerly sister)

[Perna]

I would differentiate between suffering and pain. Pain is just pain, it hurts. Suffering is all the layers of thought and feeling we heap on top of pain, trying to make sense of it or blanket it so it keeps quiet, etc. We add energy to the original and that keeps it going long past its hot-stove-burn-hand-pull-hand-away scenario.

There is no pain now, for what happened 10-20, whatever, years ago? That's suffering. Think of grieving the death of a loved one and how that follows a progression and gets incorporated into us; all loss probably needs to be treated that way. We get into trouble, I think, when as children we don't have enough tools to help us grieve the harder pains of abuse. It's adult on child and their hands and hits and words are harder than a child's so the bruises and scars to our psyche are larger. We do what we can using our symptoms but at some point we need to take off the symptoms and grieve as adults and then be done. That's not easy and takes time and effort, like grieving for a loved-ones death does.

Books aren't true or false; they're only guides and one person's idea of how things are. Take from your book what you do understand or ideas of things you want to try, Esther. I like the concept of treating everything that happens to me as a "lesson", even if it is something like my car breaking down or someone else reacting to what I said/posted in a way I don't like. We now, as adults, can often choose how to see things and how to respond to them, an option not available very often to children with their more constrained lives. Living longer gives options. Think about now and when things happen, whether you feel pain or suffering? Generally you probably feel more pain? Eventually it gets resolved. The only suffering you feel is probably for something ongoing. Looking at whatever is happening now as something to help and teach makes things much more comfortable for me; people learning make mistakes, that's the nature of learning. There is no pain in making mistakes, everyone does. So, learning to deal with our illnesses, we'll make mistakes but that's how we learn what our limitations are and triggers and things we should do and avoid. But none of that should feel like suffering? It's all in how one looks at it, which means suffering can be an illusion, like any other magic trick?

Yeah, I like Perna's distinction between pain as being an experience in the moment while suffering is 'all the layers of thought' etc that we 'heap on top'.

On a buddist conception the self is an illusion. What is supposed to be illusory is this notion of an entity (the self) that persists THROUGH time.

The idea is that all that there really is is the present moment. But what we do is we 'project' ourself into the past (by ruminating) and into the future (by worrying).

In the literature on animals one often hears it said that one difference between people and animals is that people can suffer (because of their capacity to 'project' themselves forward and backwards) while animals can't suffer (because of their lack of capacity) though they obviously can feel pain.

Hume said (something along the lines of): When I reflect inwards and try and find this thing called 'the self' I find that there are only particular perceptions and ideas. I never can glimpse this thing that persists through time that holds or unifies all the perceptions and ideas. I confess that if a man thinks he can find such a thing there is little more that I can say to him except that I find no such thing in me.

Part of it is about... Realizing that we can control how much we suffer (by learning how to control and divert our attention from our ideas, perceptions, memories, and ruminations and anxieties. Instead of sitting there dwelling, anticipating, suffering, one can divert ones attention by having a run or a long bubblebath or listening to music and really focusing on that.

Pain is less volountary. But it takes attention to turn pain into suffering and attention is something that we CAN control. (Interestingly enough we have some control over pain via our attention too).

I suffer less now. Having more control over my attention has opened up a related way of being for me, however. The capacity to grieve.

Learning how to turn suffering into grieving is something that therapy can help you with. Learning how to direct ones attention etc.

[ECHOES]

suffering is suffering. but it's *about* something and exploring that something can bring the joy of enlightenment. ... and possibly a relief of the suffering.

i am suffering the loss of someone i felt very close to. i am suffering. but what the suffering is about, the loss, is something valuable to explore and learn from if I choose to explore it.

Buddhists say we all seek happiness and do not want suffering.

And so when suffering comes, as it always will, it is an opportunity, or a joy, that we can explore it and use what we find to help us in seeking our happiness.

[Kiya]

The buddhists say that suffering is wishing for things that cannot be true or we cannot have. To stop suffering all we need do is be in the moment, enjoy the life and breath within us. Also, like in the above posts, that the self (the body) is an illusion. To transcend the body and the thoughts.

But honestly, i do not believe that those masters of enlightenment have endured the kind of pain you or anyone in this thread have. It is one thing for a Master to tell others how to live - quite another to start over, endure a life of abuses - and then transcend the body and mind.

Do only what you can do ((((((( ev )))))))
kiya

Miss, Charlotte, the book I'm reading is Your Sacred Self by Wayne Dyer.. Anyone ever read it?

Perna.. Thank you. That added much clarity for me about the difference between pain and suffering.

Echoes - You much summarized the message in the book that suffering is good. I think with help from you all I understand a bit more.

Kiya. Yes, I did feel when reading the book that it wasnt written in teh context of abuse which is really complex, but I take from it what I can.