DBT chat

SicklySweet posted a great description of mindfulness above. I'll just add a few of the things that we talked about in chat last week.

Everyone has Wise Mind. It is the place where your heart and your reason come together and you know that it is true. To experience wise mind for yourself, breathe in slowly through your nose and out through your mouth. Keep breathing like this, slowly, and calmly, for a few minutes until you feel calm and relaxed. When you are ready, let your breath settle, and notice where that centered place is where your breath goes. It might be the center of your chest, between your eyes, the center of your forehead, etc. Find what it is for you - there is no right or wrong.

Remember that wise mind balances and draws from both emotional mind and rational mind. In my skills groups, I have participants think of a problem or situation, then role play, choosing one person to represent emotional mind, another to represent rational mind, and another for wise mind.

I usually have to remind them that emotional mind includes all of the feelings experienced, which include anger and sadness, as well as love and generosity, etc. My group members tend to assume that emotions are "bad" and get them in trouble all the time, and they will act out emotional mind as the devil sitting on your shoulder. I have to remind them that emotions are not necessarily good or bad - they just are, and we need them.

If the group members assume that emotions are the devil, then they tend to assume that rational mind is the angel on your shoulder, and that rational mind will come up with a logical solution that will be the best solution to the problem. Again, I have to remind them that logic is useful and we need it, but it is neither good nor bad. Ebenezer Scrooge relied on logic and pragmatics and did not allow himself to feel, and he learned that more balance was needed. Rational mind defines the facts and plans things out in a logical sequence towards an objective. Rational mind needs to be balanced with feeling and emotion so that it will work towards the desired objective. A computer can solve many problems, but can't decide which problem to work on without being told.

Wise mind considers both emotional mind and rational mind, finds what is true in each, and puts it together. Wise mind finds what you care about most, and the way to get there.

One thing that came up in the chat last week was how it can be difficult to access wise mind if your ego is fractured such that there is a part(s) that is only emotion, and a part(s) that is only logic or ration. Especially if those parts don't work together well. If that is the case, then accessing wise mind will take some practice with getting parts to work together. It might take longer and hard work to get there, but you still can. You really need to have a way to ground yourself, or someone to help bring you back if you start to float away. If you have a meditation routine or practice that works for you, that is also helpful.

DBT chat is happening now

Thanks for this! After reading through the explanation I realized that i have already been doing some of this on my own, before my T even mentioned it to me. I dont do it ALL the time, but I find myself in certain situations at work that get me upset and part of me wants to give my boss a piece of my mind and a few choice words I wont put here. i have to tell myself, "LLT, what are the consequences of this if you do? Yes you are pissed BUT if you do act out it will only make things worse. So yes you are upset, it's okay to be--your boss is a dim-wit, but you cant help that..."

Thanks!

Just a reminder that DBT chat will be at the regular time tomorrow morning (10:30 Eastern).

We had a request to discuss emotion regulation this week. I still need to post the summary from last week too, but for now I thought I would just find this thread and pull it back up so that I can find it to post the summary.

did I miss it? it's thursday in OZ - dont know where you are? or what time it is? thanks for the website - lots of interesting stuff there - take care P7

Nope, you didn't miss it. Here, it is still Wednesday evening. The DBT chat is in 14 horus from now.

ok so that will be 2 or 3am here - sorry will miss it - hope it goes well

Ok, I keep thinking I will post summaries after the chat. The problem is that I get too busy on Thursdays and Fridays, and tired, and don't get it done for a while.

So, in the last two chats we have talked about Interpersonal Effectiveness and Emotion Regulation. Rather than post here exactly what we talked about in the chat, this is what I felt were the main points and significant insights.

In a way, the skills all do kind-of lead from one into another. Mindfulness is always a foundation, no matter what other skills are used. Sometimes you have to choose which skills to try, for example, do you want to tolerate whatever is happening (Distress Tolerance), change your reaction to it (Emotion Regulation), or try to change the situation (Interpersonal Effectiveness). There is no right or wrong answer - it depends on what you want and what is reasonable in the situation.

We were kind-of all over the place with Interpersonal Effectiveness discussions. Basically, these skills help you to decide what is most important to you before you take action, and focus on what you need to do to maximize the chances of getting what you want.

Sometimes what you want might be getting the thing that you are going to ask for or getting your needs met (your objective). Other times, the relationship with the other person means more to you. Or how you feel about yourself (self-respect) might come out on top. Sometimes all of these things might come together, but other times getting one can mean letting go of another, or compromising.

Start here: http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/ie_overview.html to read about Interpersonal Effectiveness.

We chatted briefly about using the DEAR MAN formula to request something that you want or need (or to refuse something someone is asking of you).

DESCRIBE
Describe the situation when necessary - sometimes it isn't stick to the facts and no judgmental statements
"I've been working here for 2 years now and haven't received a raise, even though my performance reviews have always been positive"
"This is the third time this week that you've asked me for a ride home."

EXPRESS
Express feelings/opinions about the situation clearly.
describe how you feel or what you believe about the situation.
don't expect the other person to read your mind or know how you feel give a brief reason for making your request.
"I believe that I deserve a raise."
"I'm getting home so late that it is really hard for me and my family. But I also really enjoy giving you rides home, and it is hard for me to say no."

ASSERT
Assert your wishes.
Ask for what you want.
Say no clearly.
Don't expect the other person to know what you want them to do if you don't tell them (don't expect them to mind read).
Don't tell others what they "should" do.
Don't beat around the bush...Just bite the bullet and ask, or say no
"I would like a raise. Can you give it to me?
"But I have to say no tonight. I can't give you a ride home so often."

REINFORCE
Reward people who respond positively to you when you ask for something, say no or express an opinion.
Sometimes it helps to reinforce people before they respond to your question by telling them the positive effects of getting what you want or need.
The basic idea here is that if people do not gain form complying with a request, at least some of the time, they may stop responding in a positive way
"I will be alot happier and probably more productive if I get a salary that reflects my value to the company."
"Thanks for being so understanding. I really appreciate it."

STAY MINDFUL
Keep your focus on your objectives in the situation
Maintain your position
Don't be distracted on to another topic
Two helpful techniques for staying mindful:
1. Broken Record
Keep asking, saying no or expressing your opinion...over and over and over
You just don't have to think up something new each time, just keep saying the exact same thing. Keep a mellow tone of voice....your strength comes from maintaining your position
2. Ignore
If the other person attacks, threatens or tries to change the subject, ....IGNORE, the
threats comments or efforts to divert you. Just keep making your point. If you respond to these attacks, you have allowed the other person to take control of the situation
If you want to deal with the attacks...deal with them in another discussion.

APPEAR CONFIDENT
Confident tone of voice
Confident physical manner
Appropriate eye contact
No stammering, whispering, staring at the floor, etc...
How confident to act in a situation is a judgment call. There is a fine line between appearing arrogant, and appearing too apologetic.

NEGOTIATE
Be willing to give to get
Offer and ask for alternate solutions
Reduce your request
Maintain your no, but offer to do something else or solve the problem another way
A helpful skill here is "turning the tables." Turn the problem over to the other person, ask for alternative solutions.
"What do you think we can do." "I am not able to say yes, but you really seem to want me to. What can we do here?"
"How can we solve this problem?"

http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/ie_handout_8.html

DBT does not ask you to give up your emotions or to feel "the right way" to please anybody else. Emotional invalidation is what caused most of us to need DBT to correct what we learned that hurt us or kept us from developing skills that other people have.

The first part of emotional validation is to observe and describe and understand and accept your emotions. You feel the way that you do for a reason. Emotions are important. They make us who we are, and they communicate what is important to us, and they motivate us to take some action, and they validate us.

Even if you decide to change an emotion, first you need to understand it and validate it. When you change which emotion you are expresing it, the object is not to hide or cover up or reject the original emotion. One technique is to act "opposite to current emotion" such as to smile when you are afraid, or do something nice for someone you are mad at. Even then, the object is not to get rid of the current emotion, but to express a different emotion.

http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/emot..._handouts.html

If you practice any of this stuff, feel free to post and tell us about it.

Does having this thread help? Enough to sticky it so that we can find it easily? I'm not sure which forum it really ought to be in, but would like to keep it all together.

Rapunzel, I read your information and handouts too.. very helpful but I'm worried what if I don't remember everything from the handouts into practise irl? Especially when I'm under pressure or stress which I'd likely to be forgetten all of it.
Many thanks for this and I wish my counsellor (using person centre approach) could be able to use DBT.

I wish that I could get DBT therapy myself, but it's not going to work out. My T is eclectic/psychodynamic, and I appreciate that too, but I need more help with learning these skills that I don't have, and she seems to expect that I can learn them on my own.

The reality is that under pressure we are not likely to remember or be able to use DBT skills unless we have practiced them and gotten comfortable with them in non-stressful situations. When the pressure is on, you tend to do what you know and have always done. That's why practice is so important. For this to really work for you, it is necessary to look for chances to use the skills, even though you don't absolutely need them in that instance, or even make up situations for practice, practice in the mirror, just any chance you get. When you get comfortable with the skills and don't have to think through it to do it, then you will be able to rely on them even under pressure.

Give yourself credit for trying, practicing, learning something new, thinking about what you could have tried after the fact, rehearsing it for next time, or any other effort that you make. Nobody just reads the handout and can do it perfectly. We have to be nonjudgemental with ourselves and let ourselves learn, and encourage ourselves to just try.

Just a reminder that chat is in the morning at 10:30 Eastern Daylight Time. Last week the time change threw some people off, especially internationally. See 'ya there!

DBT chat is in progress now.

Once again, I wasn't able to post a summary from last week's chat right away, and then I got bogged down with work. So, here I am again. I think that I will need to change the day and time for this chat. Hopefully to a time when I can stick around and get a summary posted and not have to rush off. I'm thinking Monday night or Tuesday morning might be my best times. What about either 11 p.m. Monday, or 10:30 a.m. Tuesday? We seem to be pretty chat intensive at the beginning of the week. I think that I will also start a social group for DBT discussion, so if you are interested, look for that too.

On Thursday, we talked about balancing the various DBT skills to find your best option for a situation.

The author of the website, DBTselfhelp.com , feels that we need to have emotion regulation and distress tolerance skills first, before learning interpersonal effectiveness. She does have a point, but I disagree because I'm seeing a tendency for people to lean towards accepting painful and abusive situations, and trying to tolerate them or change their own emotional reaction, without trying to change the situation and/or environment. If you are borderline, you probably grew up being taught that you can't do anything about it anyway, and how you feel about it doesn't matter, so this response makes sense given that kind of upbringing.

Still, we don't have to put up with environments like that, or let people treat us like that anymore. Interpersonal Effectiveness is hard to learn when you haven't learned it before. But you really can do it. Practice it, a lot, especially when you are not too stressed about something and you can take your time to stop and think through the steps to use the skills. I'm not going to repeat DEAR MAN here because it is in an earlier post, so I'll encourage you to go back and look at it and keep practicing it as much as you can. You can add to it with GIVE and FAST. (a few more things to develop and attend to in your interactions).
http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/ie_handout_9.html
http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/ie_handout_10.html

So, do focus on changing what you can, using these skills. There will still be things that we can't change, crises that we just need to get through, and our emotional reactions to whatever is going on. Sometimes even though we are asking for and working towards change, it just doesn't happen right away. These are the times to use Distress Tolerance and Emotion Regulation.

Just like in the Serenity Prayer. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference....

When the most important thing, for the time being anyway, is to get through the crisis or morment or discomfort, Distress Tolerance skills are useful.

http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/dt_handout_1.html

Going back to Emotion Regulation, the first step is to understand and accept the emotion nonjudgementally. You would focus on the emotion and work through it and then decide if you want to try to change it. We will talk more about that.

Distress Tolerance is more like escaping from whatever is hard to tolarate. You might focus on something else, like your breathing, or whatever you can think of to distract yourself. Or you can focus on how you would like things to be in the future. And we'll talk about this one more too, but if you look at the link, there are some options. This is more of a brief introduction, as in the chat we realized that we still needed to focus more on the other skills first.

I'm sorry to announce I won't be able to do the chat this week, at least not on Thursday. I thought I could make it work, but I have a meeting in the morning I have to get to, and I won't be able to manage both. I can do the chat on Saturday morning, same time (10:30 Eastern) if you like.

I'm not sure if anyone is coming for a Saturday morning DBT chat, but I'll plan to be there and see who shows up. There is a poll in General about the best time for DBT chat. If you haven't seen it, and if you have a preference, please chime in. I'd like you to be able to come if you want to.

I'll show up... if I'm up. I tend to sleep pretty late on weekends... as much as I shouldn't!

Thanks for coming, all who did.

We talked about Emotion Regulation. I presented a model for describing emotions, which I didn't thinik was online, but I did find a good explanation for it:

http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/describing1.html

Also, there are probably only about eight primary emotions (anger, sorrow, joy, surprise, fear, disgust, guilt/shame, and interest), but there are many complex emotions which are learned or are combinations of these or maybe emotions plus some kind of action.

Primary and Secondary Emotions


There are primary and secondary emotions. The secondary emotion is the one that follows the primary or first emotion, for example, feeling shame because you got angry. Anger is the primary emotion, and shame is the secondary emotion. A person can get angry for being angry, or depressed for being depressed, or angry for feeling fear. In these three cases, anger, depression and anger are the secondary emotions.

It's really important to be able to tell which emotions are the primary emotions and which are the secondary emotions.

Neither the primary nor the secondary emotions are good or bad, but to get back to the original problem and work on solving it, it is necessary usually to deal with the primary emotions.

Try to think of a situation where you experienced a primary and then a secondary emotion. For example: A close relative died. I first feel grief. That is my primary emotion. Then I feel ashamed because I feel so sad. Shame is the secondary emotion.

This can be hard, because the switch often happens very fast. If you feel an emotion, look at your emotion and see if there is a primary emotion behind it. We will come back to this later.


Exercises


There are two Kinds of emotional experiences
Reactions to events in one's environment
(being criticized, having a loved one call on the phone, losing a game, etc.) Inner reactions, primarily reactions to one's own thoughts
(guilt about feeling angry, shame about not doing well at something, fear about something anticipated or thought about)
How have emotions acted in your lives? Helpful? Hurtful?

Once again, I just can't manage a chat Thursday morning - have to get to work earlier. How about Saturday? 10:30 Eastern Time

Great! looking forward to it. many thanks

I am taking one of these in real life. It's about coping skills. It's a 27 week class. I'm really excited about it, though it just started two weeks ago I believe it will be very beneficial in helping me balancing out the extremes.

=)