[seeker1950]

I'm starting this thread, but not sure where it belongs, so, administrators, please feel free to move it if necessary. To me, it does seem to fall under the category of relationships.

I was reluctant to start this thread because I no longer dwell on my experiences with what I can only categorize as someone sociopathic. I will post about them later if interest in this thread continues.

For now, I would like to discuss the sociopath in the making. As a middle school teacher, I see students each year who exhibit the potential for such behavior, or are ALREADY behaving very skillfuly in such a way.

One student particularly comes to mind, and the concept of "nature vs. nurture" seems to have played a big role in it. This little boy gravitated to me in his 6th grade year from the start. Very bright, he revealed to me that his mother was unable to care for him because of severe psychological problems, and that his dad was severe alcoholic. As a result, he was farmed out to various family situations, where the families also were borderline in their ability to function. I began hiring him to do little jobs for me, paying him generously, and giving him little speeches about taking his education seriously. This continued over three years while he was sporadically back and forth from various living situations, sometimes away from my area. At one point, he told me he had to give his pay from me to "Angie," another dropout former student, for baby formula. That was not my intention at all in working with him. Also, he always asked me to "come pick him up" when I had a job for him, although he was well within walking distance or bike riding distance in my little town. I also witnessed the whole family waiting for him to arrive after several jobs so they could go spend his money. They were all on welfare in the household, with several illegitimate babies.

I could see this young man's charm and innate charisma, his extreme intelligence (he was in my homeroom and his standardized test scores were off the charts!) I also realized I was losing the battle.

This was several years ago, and I've lost track of him, but I am sure he followed the dark side, rather than pursuing education and developing a work ethic. His "look," his intelligence, his ability to manipulate, his budding sexuality, all tell me he had the potential for sociopathy. I hope I am wrong. I lost track of him, and, in my interactions with students now, I no longer get so intensely involved. (Hey, I even considered trying to adopt him or be a foster parent.)

Seeker

[MacD]

Seeker...You are clearly so perceptive....and so giving...Please don't give too much....You already know that once a sociopath is fully developped, the history of treatment is generally unsuccessful....I know exactly the type of person you are describing....I think that the best thing that any of us can do is to be loving and sensitive to these "clearly at risk" individuals in the hope that we can inspire them to see beyond their current negative circumstances and hold on to the aspiration of a better life despite it......Grace

P.S. Clearly you did this and I hope that this young man was moved and motivated by your kindness and didn't "go to the dark side"....

[kimmydawn]

seeker,

you describe me and my 5th grade teacher's relationship to a t. while i stayed with one family, it was horrendous. we moved every two to three years. i had a short time with her, but she was forever branded on my soul in such a good way. she showed me that there a ppl out there who care.

i'm not a sociopath. granted, i'm a woman and that plays a role. however, possibly this will help you to maybe think that he's somewhere ok, and giving you partial credit when he thinks of your care. maybe you to were him what my mrs. mc clean was to me. maybe your care and words reached him. maybe you gave him the love he needed. maybe you gave him faith in his awful world. just maybe...

my mrs mc clain allowed me to have hope and to try to keep that faith to find more like her.

kd

[seeker1950]

Thanks, Mac!
You are also very perceptive and insightful.
Like I mentioned in the start of this thread, I have been the "victim" of a few (what I consider) sociopaths, but no longer dwell on it.
I will describe here, my "textbook" experience with one. Shortly after my divorce, at age 47, I was SO happy to be free and out of the marriage. Meeting a man was the last thing on my mind. I had moved into a ratty furnished trailer till my divorce hearing was final and the financial settlement. I had allowed my ex to write the divorce without a lawyer, leaving him with most everything, just happy to finally get away. With the settlement, I bought my little house, immediately setting it to renovate it. I noticed a young, strange man often being outside when I was working on various projects in the yard. He introduced himself, and, though I sensed something "wasn't right" about him, he was very persistent and "cute," and began to confide in me (since he was always present when I went outside....literally!). In retrospect, I realize I was being stalked from the get-go, but at the time, I was naive and flattered. He was 32, and keep in mind that I was 47! He related to me his history, living at home at the time with his parents after hospitalization from alcohol poisoning and addiction, and in his recovery, wanted to make a "new start." He also related in a very sexual way, with charisma, touching me on the knee outside my house (I didn't invite him in!), and his attention was persistent and flattering to me. Also, keep in mind that I had been married for twenty years in a "brother/sister" type relationship, devoid of emotional fulfillment. Hey, I'm not making excuses here; I was stupid!!!!
Before I knew what was happening, he was living in my house. I was driving him daily to AA meetings, where he also manipulated the members there. Yeah, there was also an intensely sexual relationship between us, something of which I had been deprived and which I had felt I would never experience. It was a disaster. He was stealing from me right and left! When I confronted him with it, he had pitiful excuses. The culmination of it was Christmas Eve when he left with money I had given him to buy MY Christmas present, and he didn't return. I found him the following Sunday morning at the AA Sunday meeting, where he confessed he had taken a 13 year old to a motel, plying her with beer (of course, using the money I had given him for shopping!). I packed all his belongings and kicked him out. Then the stalking began. I had called the local police many, many times about it, but finally he broke into my house with a gun, trying to shoot me. He was incarcerated, and I remember vividly the receptionist at the court house stating so I could hear..."Poor Blaine, is he still on SUICIDE watch???" He had conned her too. I know this because when I had first met him, I actually went to the police department to ask about his history, and this same woman had told me enthusiastically what a "wonderful" person he was, only having a problem with alcohol, and that he had served as a "trustee" while in jail there for DUI, having lunch with the office staff daily.
Hey, as I said, I was stupid. I was ordered to court-appointed counseling as a result, and I have to admit, it was the best counseling experience I've ever had. The counselors there don't mince words and are there for vicitims of domestic violence. He had broken into my home several times before the gun episode trying to rape me, which I successfully resisted.

Gosh, I hate to have revealed all of this. It sounds like I'm stupid, but, in fact, ANY vulnerable single woman who happened to have moved into the neighborhood would have been subjected to his advances. It just happened to be me! Did I learn from it??? Of course I did. Prior to this I was a "babe in the woods" regarding the predators out there.
Seeker

[MacD]

Seeker.....my mother used to say to me..."For Gods Sake Grace, quit bringing home strays...and I'm not just talking about the animals either!"
Like you, I guess I attract the needy and sometimes the disturbed.....As I've matured, I've learned to tell the difference...but doggonit it was hard!,,,I used to think that all anyone needed was one good friend...ME...now I know that some problems are quite a bit more complex...but I so relate....(((((((Seeker)))))))))

[Myzen]

Hi seeker,

Thanks for sharing your story, which only shows how generous and open hearted you have been in the past, even if it did go wrong for you.

But I have to affirm - that was one very frightening story, and there is not much else to say about it - it's heavy stuff. You showed great courage.

As I understand it, both from reading and sadly from meeting actual cases, the sociopath is a person who does not empathise with others in any normal way, but is able to do a highly convincing act. Maybe the act is so convincing just because they don't feel things, they are mimics.

I think that there is a difference between the sociopath and the psychopath. As far as I understand it, the sociopath has clear goals of self interest and will burn anyone who gets in the way. The psychopath is not working to a self interested goal, but seems to need the manipulation of others in order to feel real and alive, even to the extent of terrible crimes.

In this schema, the sociopath seems the better option, but as Mac said, mature sociopaths are not readily treatable, maybe because they don't see what they are doing as wrong. Either of these personalities can do bad damage to you if you are targetted.

One thing you said about upbringing. An irony is that the budding sociopath will use the 'upbringing' card as part of the sting, they'll use anything, and they are clever and convincing, because sociopaths work to outcomes, and that is all they care about.

I knew a lady whose business was not going so well, and she was in danger of losing her house. By coincidence, she found a cheque book, and at that time she had an arrangement to cash cheques at the counter of her bank (you can't do that now I think). It was a small bank branch in the countryside somewhere. Anyway, she wrote a substantial cheque to herself and cashed it. A few days later the assistant manager from the bank came to her house and told her that the cheque had bounced. He said that he would lose his job if they didn't get the money back from her. She said, "That's your problem."

Was this lady a sociopath, a criminal, or a survivor? The lines are not always clear. I know what I think.

Cheers, M

[Myzen]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
MacD said:
Seeker.....my mother used to say to me..."For Gods Sake Grace, quit bringing home strays...and I'm not just talking about the animals either!"
Like you, I guess I attract the needy and sometimes the disturbed.....As I've matured, I've learned to tell the difference...but doggonit it was hard!,,,I used to think that all anyone needed was one good friend...ME...now I know that some problems are quite a bit more complex...but I so relate....(((((((Seeker)))))))))

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Hi Mac,

That's the story all right. I'm going to be honest and say that I think I was doing it because I felt like an outsider myself, so I would always identify with an isolated person or anyone I perceived as a loser in any way. I did this at university, on courses, in my teaching work - all the time. A lot of my teaching was remedial work, and that was pretty suitable for me, until I started bringing the work home.

Old habits........

Cheers, M

[MacD]

Oh, so clear....you really crystallized this one.....a sociopath gives a very convincing performance that they care and empathize...but they feel neither....they are elemental...whatever it takes to survivive...I will acquire....It's a scary scary disorder...(and disorder seems way too mild a term)

[seeker1950]

Mac and Myzen, you have given very good descriptions of the personality I was trying to describe. Very skilled actors also.
Seeker

[seeker1950]

Kimmy,
It would be wonderful to know that I had somehow influenced the young student in a positive way. I hope I made some impact, but, you know, the odds were against me. Your own story is inspiring!
Seeker

[kimmydawn]

i know the odds were against you. oh, how i know that. i see my two brothers...classic symptoms. you did good. we can dream of a happy ending based on that...



you did good.

[seeker1950]

Thanks, Kimmy!
I love the little fella saying "You did good!" I laughed out loud when I saw him!
Seeker

Seeker,

As far as your student goes I need you to know that you made an impact on that child that will stay with him always, wherever he may be now.

I just reunited with a teacher I had in high school almost thirty years ago. She was aware of what life was like for me at home and she took me under her wing. I was a delinquent, never in school, a tough druggie. But, she saw potential in me, always urging me towards college for a writing carrer. She encouraged me to keep a journal and write, write, write. I scoffed at the time. I had zero self-esteem.

I don't even remember the day I graduated high school, and I never saw my teacher again. She (hearing this from her now) thought I walked off into a world of drugs and crime. She told me she thought of me often and wondered how my life turned out.

A few years after high school I did get myself on the right path and here I am, thirty years later, writing. Just like she encouraged me to do.

I felt it was important to let her know that she did make a difference in my life. I always heard her voice of encouragement somewhere deep inside saying, you have a gift.

It took me a year to find her. She had left the state, remarried and moved far away. But I kept at it, determined to give it my all.

I wanted her to know she made a difference in my life.

We both cried on the phone the day I found her.

I share this with you in case your "little guy" doesn't get that chance.

Just know it mattered.

Petunia

[seeker1950]

Thanks for sharing your story, Petunia. I do hope the fella has succeeded in life. He would be out of high school now and hopefully pursuing some ethical direction. I would love to hear from him sometime.
Seeker

((( Seeker )))

You never know...

Have faith.

Petunia

[Artist]

Seeker, It took some courage from you to write that story. there are a lot of manipulative people out there. Both men and woman. Men are not the only sociopaths out there. Woman might be better at it then men. in fact so good that they don't stand out as such the way that men do. At least you had the wisdom to wake up and smell the Coffee. There is nothing wrong with giving someone a helping hand. The World needs more of that. You just need to ask yourself if this is hurting me more then helping the other person. I say this for you as well as myself. It is a lession I need to relearn.
Many years ago I met a woman who told me she was in an abusive realtionship. She had a young daughter As time went on we became friends. One day she calls and in tears tells me she needs a place to hide. I drove to a meeting place and picked her and her daughter up. She stayed at my Apt she in the Bedroom with her daughter and I on the couch. With in a few nights we were making love. I gave her the use of a credit card to buy herselfand her daughter cloths and other things as she said she left all her belongings and ran for her life out of her home. I have to say I was enjoying our Little domestic relationship and getting some real feeling for Her and her child. After about a month One day She just disappeared, along with some of my cash and a few other things from my Apt. Turns out she was never abused. She often did this in one case a guy bought here a nice used car. I do feel sorry for the Child who will grow up thinking that the only relationship to have with men is trading herself for money and using her body to get men to buy her things.

[seeker1950]

Artist...aren't we a pair?!!!! "Taking in strays" as Mac has described. I even heard after the stalking incident how my "stray" had conned other male AA members into taking him into their home till he could get on his feet, all the while seducing their wives. They wanted to kill him, and indeed, I wonder how he's still alive, if he IS!!!
By the way, I no longer take in "human" strays, but I do have three pets who are very loving and appreciative. (I even have recurring "pet rescue" dreams!) It's my nature.
Seeker

[Artist]

I guess we are. Like you I did learn my lesson sort of . I don't take in stray people but I still believe in giving someone down on their luck a hand. I have been burned a couple of times.

[Junerain]

Thsi has brought up memories for me. I met a man named Dominick, who I decided to date, even though he had just been released from prison. He got his food from the garbage, sold hid food stamps for srug money. He denied that he was using drugs. He said he wanted to marry me. This touched me deep inside. He told me to go off birth control. I found out later he had seven kids, which I don't know how being in prison for twenty years. His conviction was manslaughter although he said it was in self defense. Also, i dated a guy named Johnnie who kept going through all my money for drugs. He saw me crying about it and didn't care. Also, he wanted to marry me. I was so touched someone wanted to marry me. It is embarassing I dated these two. This thread lets me express that. It is humiliation. I do believe it was my illness that caused me to be involved with these sociopaths. I still hurt bad to this day.

[SeptemberMorn]

Seeker, I relate to your story completely! This almost happened to me a few months back. Thank God he's moved out of town!

[seeker1950]

Hi, June and Sept..
I really believe anyone can be a target for such characters, and Junerain, please don't feel it was humiliation. I know ...I felt that too, but, unlike honest people who contribute to society, the sociopath, in my uneducated opinion, uses others to get their needs met. They have no conscience, but are very good at pretending to have one. They do not have feelings, but are very skillful actors in making you believe they have deep feelings. When an honest and trusting soul is left in the devastating aftermath of the chaos created by the sociopath, it is natural to ask oneself, "How could I have been so stupid!??" I felt that too! But now I'm just proud I managed to survive it; no longer even think about it, or feel any sort of hurt. I hope you too will arrive at that point very soon!
Seeker

[SeptemberMorn]

Do you think that maybe retarded people are sociopathic by nature? In discribing your student, you are discribing a neighbor I used to have not too long ago! His whole family is retarded but he's the most functional. His parents were just like your student's family. Whatever money he made, they felt he owed it to them. Because the old man used to give me rides to the store, he felt I owed him whatever he asked for!

Thought I was gonna catch a break after they moved to Colorado a couple weeks ago, but would you believe the kid is STILL calling me for favors??? AY! Enough already!

[seeker1950]

Actually, the student I described was highly intelligent, and that was one of the things which made me want to help him, knowing his home situation.
I really don't think there is much correlation between intelligence and the sociopathic mentality, but I could be wrong. I have known some highly intelligent men who behaved without conscience.
The stalker character I wrote about here, however, probably WAS retarded to a degree, while having learned to be very streetsmart.
Seeker

[Myzen]

Hi folks,

Yes, I'd like to add here that I had great respect for the adults in my literacy classes. Some where very hard up, but still generous towards each other and towards me.

I think that it is very unlikely that any correlation exists between low IQ and sociopathy.

Cheers, M

[SeptemberMorn]

Ahhh! That's right! I forgot you said your student was very intelligent. Sorry 'bout that.