[Ygrec23]

Haven't been able to find much on this issue here on PC of late. (Not allowed on the NPD sub-forum.) On the net in general things seem to be skewed in favor of daughters. Why do you think that may be? Do daughters of NPD moms think that sons get a better deal? What about children of NPD dads? Or are there any NPD dads? On the net, it seems there's ten NPD moms for one NPD dad. True? Untrue? And, if you've thought or read about it, what have you seen about what they call the "epigenetic" effects of parental NPD? Passing it on? Now isn't that a lovely idea. Take care.

[madisgram]

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) Definition

Written by Sam Vaknin Nov 02, 2008 A + A - RESET From healthyplace.com

What is Narcissism?
A pattern of traits and behaviors which signify infatuation and obsession with one's self to the exclusion of all others and the egotistic and ruthless pursuit of one's gratification, dominance and ambition.
Most narcissists (75%) are men.
NPD is one of a "family" of personality disorders (formerly known as "Cluster B").
Other members: Borderline PD, Antisocial PD and Histrionic PD.
NPD is often diagnosed with other mental health disorders ("co-morbidity") - or with substance abuse, or impulsive and reckless behaviors ("dual diagnosis").
NPD is new (1980) mental health category in the Diagnostic and Statistics Manual (DSM).
There is only scant research regarding narcissism. But what there is has not demonstrated any ethnic, social, cultural, economic, genetic, or professional predilection to NPD.
It is estimated that 0.7-1% of the general population suffer from NPD.
Pathological narcissism was first described in detail by Freud. Other major contributors are: Klein, Horney, Kohut, Kernberg, Millon, Roningstam, Gunderson, Hare.
The onset of narcissism is in infancy, childhood and early adolescence. It is commonly attributed to childhood abuse and trauma inflicted by parents, authority figures, or even peers.
There is a whole range of narcissistic reactions - from the mild, reactive and transient to the permanent personality disorder.
Narcissists are either "Cerebral" (derive their narcissistic supply from their intelligence or academic achievements) - or "Somatic" (derive their narcissistic supply from their physique, exercise, physical or sexual prowess and "conquests").
Narcissists are either "Classic" - see definition below - or they are "Compensatory", or "Inverted" - see definitions here: "The Inverted Narcissist".
NPD is treated in talk therapy (psychodynamic or cognitive-behavioral). The prognosis for an adult narcissist is poor, though his adaptation to life and to others can improve with treatment. Medication is applied to side-effects and behaviors (such as mood or affect disorders and obsession-compulsion) - usually with some success.

[Ygrec23]

Well, Madisgram gives us basic facts drawn from out of Sam Vakhnin's bottomless well. Do I assume correctly, Madisgram, that the total numbers include psychopaths and sociopaths? I'm not familiar with this area and don't know who gets stuck in with who. My personal interest comes from my T's recent (retrospective) diagnosis of my mom as NPD. So far she does seem to fit the bill. But she was so, so SMART! No kidding at all. While she was alive no one could pin any negative diagnosis like this on her. With an IQ the size of Rocky Marciano's weigh-in number, she could and did (over and over) talk her way around any bad news. Didn't help her kids though. One heroin addict, one life-time alcoholic, one seven-year, five-day-a-week old-fashioned full psychoanalysand and one completely dissociated nut case (me), not to mention a husband she drove into the ground twenty years too soon. Just want to yatter about that. No particular points of view or grudges (save for her). Take care!

Not to be a nit-pick, but I would take Vaknin's information with a grain of salt...

[purple_fins]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

Haven't been able to find much on this issue here on PC of late. (Not allowed on the NPD sub-forum.) On the net in general things seem to be skewed in favor of daughters. Why do you think that may be? Do daughters of NPD moms think that sons get a better deal? What about children of NPD dads? Or are there any NPD dads? On the net, it seems there's ten NPD moms for one NPD dad. True? Untrue? And, if you've thought or read about it, what have you seen about what they call the "epigenetic" effects of parental NPD? Passing it on? Now isn't that a lovely idea. Take care.

It sucks when one is wanting more info and not able to find it.

I think that perhaps the issue of daughters being so represented with narcissistic mothers is that the child NEEDS the support of the same gender parent the most... and so when the mother is narcissistic it can really do a HUGE number on the development of the little female mind... where will she get her ability to nurture others from? the ability that society so insists that she possess........ where will she get empathy and compassion from-- that is also a societal requirement of females more than males....... such a situation may leave a female adult at a major deficit from what society expects from her. (I would be included in this group.)

with all this said-- I in no way mean to infer that damage doesnt' occur to a young male mind.... a narcissistic mother can and usually does screw up all her children... as does a narcissistic father-- but seems it's not to the degree as the mother does...
maybe since she usually spends much more time with offspring while they're VERY young.

hope this helped some.......
best to you

fins

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by Myers

Not to be a nit-pick, but I would take Vaknin's information with a grain of salt...

I'd certainly agree with that. Not exactly the peer-reviewed, top journal kind of stuff everyone would like to have. So, several grains of salt. Take care!

[Ygrec23]

purple_fins said: [QUOTE]"I think that perhaps the issue of daughters being so represented with narcissistic mothers is that the child NEEDS the support of the same gender parent the most... and so when the mother is narcissistic it can really do a HUGE number on the development of the little female mind... where will she get her ability to nurture others from? the ability that society so insists that she possess........ where will she get empathy and compassion from-- that is also a societal requirement of females more than males....... such a situation may leave a female adult at a major deficit from what society expects from her. (I would be included in this group.)[/QUOTE]

Well, admittedly I'm new to this area, but what I read in attachment theory hasn't yet differentiated between gender needs in early childhood. The message I thought I was getting was that all of us need certain special handling as infants and toddlers in order to be socialized later on. And that special handling includes attunement and intersubjectivity and empathy and all that. Without that, whether boy or girl, people grow up with very stunted social skills. You're quite right in saying that in their own reproductive cycles girls have to call on their early childhood experiences to a greater extent than boys. Otherwise they risk perpetuating an eternal chain down through the generations. But as my brothers and I would seem to prove, damage done in early childhood can very much impair, if not totally destroy, the abilities of a man to carry out his reproductive role of support and bringing income into the family.

with all this said-- I in no way mean to infer that damage doesnt' occur to a young male mind.... a narcissistic mother can and usually does screw up all her children... as does a narcissistic father-- but seems it's not to the degree as the mother does... maybe since she usually spends much more time with offspring while they're VERY young. hope this helped some....... best to you fins

Thanks, fins, yes, it's helped a lot. Best to you too. Take care!

[purple_fins]

Well, admittedly I'm new to this area, but what I read in attachment theory hasn't yet differentiated between gender needs in early childhood. The message I thought I was getting was that all of us need certain special handling as infants and toddlers in order to be socialized later on. And that special handling includes attunement and intersubjectivity and empathy and all that. Without that, whether boy or girl, people grow up with very stunted social skills. You're quite right in saying that in their own reproductive cycles girls have to call on their early childhood experiences to a greater extent than boys. Otherwise they risk perpetuating an eternal chain down through the generations. But as my brothers and I would seem to prove, damage done in early childhood can very much impair, if not totally destroy, the abilities of a man to carry out his reproductive role of support and bringing income into the family.

Yes, I've never read either where there is a difference between gender needs in early childhood. and yes, without all that people can and often do grow up with stunted social skills.(raises hand) I'm so sorry you and your brothers didn't receive the care that you so needed. I have an alcoholic brother and two sisters that are/were alcoholics -- one of which has passed due to her self neglect. I think it affects both genders profoundly..... as to the situation of so much talk of daughters with such mothers-- I think maybe it occurs so much as females share feelings more than males(society encouraged/discouraged) and also females are regarded as the gender that generally talks more... though I know I wouldn't qualify in that area.
I think men are just as affected-- in different ways perhaps but still just as "bruised". Men don't seem to be as vocal about it all.... and so then... in turn... the support is hard to come by.

I will support you any time you need a shoulder I wish men would talk more about these things-- that way more women would understand what a boy child REALLY needs(get so upset when I see a mom ignoring an injured little boy but coddling an injured girl... argh!!!!) let me tell you-- that never happened in my childhood home-- the mother was callous to most of us- no matter gender. It was more of the personality type that she endeared-- and Nope-- I didnt' have that magic makeup.

best to you in your quest for inner peace.

fins

[pachyderm]

I doubt if my mother was ever diagnosed, but I think narcissism could well be one of her characteristics. Not that labels such as that are necessarily very useful. They tend, at least in my mind, to be judgements, without much of an attempt to understand why a person has become what they have become.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

I doubt if my mother was ever diagnosed, but I think narcissism could well be one of her characteristics. Not that labels such as that are necessarily very useful. They tend, at least in my mind, to be judgements, without much of an attempt to understand why a person has become what they have become.

I'm very, very far from being an expert, Pach, but I would guess (and it's just a guess) that situations in an NPD person's early childhood require adoption of the NPD as a defence. In my mother's case, she was the youngest of four girls, none of whom (other than her) exhibited the slightest degree of narcissism. Nor did my grandmother, whom I knew well. I personally attribute my mother's condition to the fact that she was born right into a time of terrible, terrifying family trouble, lasting several years, that could only too easily have distracted her mother from the kind of personalized attention every single baby and toddler needs. And make no mistake, I sincerely believe my mother tried very hard to be both a good mother and a good person. As the result of her own early childhood, she just (alas) didn't have what it takes. Take care.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by purple_fins

Yes, I've never read either where there is a difference between gender needs in early childhood. and yes, without all that people can and often do grow up with stunted social skills.(raises hand) I'm so sorry you and your brothers didn't receive the care that you so needed. I have an alcoholic brother and two sisters that are/were alcoholics -- one of which has passed due to her self neglect. I think it affects both genders profoundly..... as to the situation of so much talk of daughters with such mothers-- I think maybe it occurs so much as females share feelings more than males(society encouraged/discouraged) and also females are regarded as the gender that generally talks more... though I know I wouldn't qualify in that area. I think men are just as affected-- in different ways perhaps but still just as "bruised". Men don't seem to be as vocal about it all.... and so then... in turn... the support is hard to come by.

I will support you any time you need a shoulder I wish men would talk more about these things-- that way more women would understand what a boy child REALLY needs (get so upset when I see a mom ignoring an injured little boy but coddling an injured girl... argh!!!!) let me tell you-- that never happened in my childhood home-- the mother was callous to most of us- no matter gender. It was more of the personality type that she endeared-- and Nope-- I didnt' have that magic makeup.
best to you in your quest for inner peace. fins

No question, fins, you are right. I think perhaps that men find it harder to conceptualize their emotional difficulties. In general, men are less verbal than women, not just externally but internally as well. I think that what you might call "emotional reasoning" is more difficult for men. I'm talking about the never-ending internal monolog that continually rehashes pain and bad feelings, trying to come up with solutions or at least explanations that will permit a person to turn his/her attention to other things. There's more of that in women than in men, I think. And if you're really out to lunch, a state in which I've spent most of my life, you just can't figure anything out until a brilliant T, like I now have, starts to point things out like a guide on a tour bus. Take care!

This business of generalizing, stereotyping and speaking for others is problematical. Ones perceptions are limited to what one experiences. I refuse to be defined by others.

That said, I hope your brilliant T talks to you about attribution: http://blogs.psychcentral.com/managi...e-experiences/

As Rene Descartes said, "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things."

Be well.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by TheByzantine

This business of generalizing, stereotyping and speaking for others is problematical.

Yes. Sometimes necessary (even with the problems), sometimes not. Probably not ever necessary, for example, here on PC (unless you want to join in the incessant chit-chat, which is fun). But even with their problems, generalizing, stereotyping and speaking for others are very normal parts of common discourse. One resigns from them at the risk of leaving the common reality at times and in situations where no other, more astringent, form of discourse will be understood.

One's perceptions are limited to what one experiences. I refuse to be defined by others.

Your privilege, as to the latter. As to the former, "experiences" directly or vicariously or both? If limited to "directly," then "perceptions" don't permit libraries? Wouldn't that be a bit austere if one weren't an experimental scientist writing a paper?

That said, I hope your brilliant T talks to you about attribution: http://blogs.psychcentral.com/managi...e-experiences/

Allright. Interesting article. What do you think my T should tell me about attribution?

As Rene Descartes said, "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things."

Entirely agree.

Be well.

You too.

[madisgram]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

My personal interest comes from my T's recent (retrospective) diagnosis of my mom as NPD. So far she does seem to fit the bill. But she was so, so SMART! well in the article i posted, there is a "cerebral narcisist" maybe that fits her to a "T"!!! No kidding at all. While she was alive no one could pin any negative diagnosis like this on her. With an IQ the size of Rocky Marciano's weigh-in number, she could and did (over and over) talk her way around any bad news. Didn't help her kids though. One heroin addict, one life-time alcoholic, one seven-year, five-day-a-week old-fashioned full psychoanalysand and one completely dissociated nut case (me), not to mention a husband she drove into the ground twenty years too soon. Just want to yatter about that. No particular points of view or grudges (save for her). Take care!

and for some of the replies i agree that moms are the supposed nurturers. this condition in a mother would certainly change the family dynamics. interesting point your T raised re your mom. would be awfully confusing for any child to endure a parental figure being NPD. and it might explain how your siblings turned out. hummm...

[purple_fins]

Originally Posted by TheByzantine

This business of generalizing, stereotyping and speaking for others is problematical. Ones perceptions are limited to what one experiences. I refuse to be defined by others.

That said, I hope your brilliant T talks to you about attribution: http://blogs.psychcentral.com/managi...e-experiences/

As Rene Descartes said, "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things."

Be well.

huh? ummmm I don't see what's wrong with generalizing.... like generally a toddler girl will pick a doll to play with over a truck... what is wrong with saying that? (it's been proven time and time again,, and studies have shown that a higher percentage of females are MORE verbal than males-- it's not better or wrong to be either way-- it just is the way it is) I think it helps some people that may be confused about genders and understanding their own humaness... and such things.
I also don't understand where anyone on this thread has been "speaking for others"?? (maybe I misunderstood some things?)

It's good you aren't defined by others Byz I like to think that of myself as well.

For some, trying to understand how cultures work and the roles in which things play as to what's functional and/or dysfunctional-- it can help some find the way they wish to go. not everyone will want to go the same direction for sure-- but some find much inner peace within the direction of the masses.

best to all

fins

[madisgram]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

No question, fins, you are right. I think perhaps that men find it harder to conceptualize their emotional difficulties. In general, men are less verbal than women, not just externally but internally as well. I think that what you might call "emotional reasoning" is more difficult for men. I'm talking about the never-ending internal monolog that continually rehashes pain and bad feelings, trying to come up with solutions or at least explanations that will permit a person to turn his/her attention to other things. There's more of that in women than in men, I think. as a matter of fact there are confimed studies on women and how they deal with emotions vs. men. sometimes i wish i was a man cause you guys don't get burrowed deep in your emotions. i struggle with this all the time. have triggers that can set that ball rolling.And if you're really out to lunch, a state in which I've spent most of my life, you just can't figure anything out until a brilliant T, like I now have, starts to point things out like a guide on a tour bus. Take care!

glad you got some feedback from your T that may help you better understand. i greatly benefit from therapy often cause i lack the awareness until T poses the thought. then we go to work on it.

[Ygrec23]

If anyone thinks they understand even a part of what Byzantine was trying to say, I'd appreciate their PM'ing me and letting me know. Take care!

[madisgram]

well here goes, we are conditioned by our own life experiences resulting perhaps in false beliefs stemming from that. they often times skew our present thinking by our previous perception of what "IS", in the now. it doesn't mean our responses to present events are truths because we've embedded a false emotion/reaction/fact/belief about self. in depressed ppl it is often old events and emotions that cause the same reaction/belief about ourselves in the present causing a distorted reaction/belief. albert ellis, phd wrote a guide to rational living to address how we can toss the false belief with a rational thought instead of digging up and reponding as we did before to a similar incident.
the byz is saying the same thing when she states she will not allow false beliefs by others to define her in the now. i believe if i am correct re her that her response is self actualizing.
i'm not sure if i'm on the right track. hope the byz responds if i am incorrect in interpeting part of what she said.