Intimacy Issues with My Wife

Ok, this is not an easy thing to explain here.... but I'll try.

I have been married for 15 years and together with my wife for 20. We met young at 19, and we've been for the most part best friends the whole time. I really love her a lot, and I believe she loves me too. Most of the time we get along, we have similar values, no money issues or job issues.

So from the beginning there were issues with intimacy.... she doesn't let her guard down. Over time it has improved, but not nearly as much as I'd like. I'm always complimenting her, get flowers, do laundry and chores, give her space to work out.... and for the most part she also gives me space.

My issue though is that when it comes to being intimate, I feel like there is a wall to get through. She doesn't really like to kiss much, and she has a set routine that she requires for us to be physical together. It's hard for me to initiate sex with her, often times she'll give off a fairly negative body language if it's not when she wants. Again, it is better now than when we were young, but it is extremely frustrating for me. We've had fights over the years about this.... she says she feels like its never good enough, and I feel like she's not putting an effort into the relationship. I'm not asking her to initiate, I just want her to not immediately go to the "no" position. In the end I chalk it up to a control issue, and an inability for her to admit that she needs me. I feel like I'm putting my heart out there... but when I get rejected it really hurts my feelings. Again, I'm not asking to get together every day or something like that... I just want to feel like we could get together and she'd be open to it.

Now that I'm getting older, I have quite a bit of anxiety over this.... I'm still in good shape... I get looks from other women if I go out with the guys etc.... but I feel like my wife isn't attracted to me.

She says she is, but that she doesn't show it, or can't for some reason. In the past she said it wasn't me when I asked if she was into someone else or whatever... but I wonder if she was just saying that to not hurt my feelings.

I really want to be married to her, I'm very much attracted to my wife, and we have a great family... but at the same time I don't want to go around feeling like I'm missing intimacy with her....

I'm seeing counseling, and we were together for a while, but she doesn't want to go to the counselor. She said she doesn't want someone to tell her that something is wrong with her.

Does anyone else have issues like this with their spouse?

I'm a male and not in to intimacy at all. Some people are like that. If everything else is ok your way ahead of the game

You can try disinhibiting substances (alcohol or, if legal in your area, marijuana) to see if that helps her to let her guard down. If it is an issue of self-control, then with a little help from substances the situation might improve. People's reactions to substances differ, though, and you will need to experiment, and have her OK to at least try. I am not sure she would give you an OK to at least try, because she has already said that she does not want anybody to tell her that something is wrong with her, and to try a substance to lower the level of inhibitions involves admitting that those inhibitions are undesirable = that something is indeed wrong with her.

If that fails, you can try talking to her about opening up the marriage so that you can see other women without divorcing her. It appears that what you want is intimacy with her, but if that goal is out of your reach, maybe you can be intimate with someone else. It would open a can of worms, and would have you deal with the issue of finding partners who are agreeable to this arrangement, but with a bit of luck you will find them - you said that women do notice you when you go out with the guys. Also, in terms of strategizing, your request to open up the marriage might just be the wake-up call she needs. She does not appear to be aware of the frustrations you are experiencing. You can gauge the real state of affairs by her response to your statement that you cannot tolerate the status quo any longer. You need to be a little more assertive. You said that you do not want her to initiate - normally, partners in a couple alternate places taking the initiative. to the extent that you do not want that, you are acquiescing in her "saying" that the relationship does not have to be equitable.

Wow, I didn't expect to get that type of answer. I do want to be intimate with her...meaning I want her to show that she needs me like I do her. When we are together the sex is good... although somewhat boring because of the restrictions she places on the whole situation. But I have no control over whether we're going to be together, she basically has all of the control of the situation, and because she doesn't seem to need me the way I need her, or have the level of physical attraction or whatever it is, it makes me feel like she has all of the power. This is complicated by sometimes she likes to argue with me over stupid crap... or if we disagree about something with the kids, if I can't convince her of my point, she will just decide her way and dismiss my way. For the most part I am the main provider, and I am giving her (our family) basically everything... my work output, my emotions, everything.... and I feel quite unhappy that she doesn't seem to acknowledge how I'm feeling about it. If I talk to her about it she gets really defensive... it's super frustrating.

I am very sure though that if I told her I wanted to see other women, she would freak out, not to mention my parents and sisters would disown me!

On seeing other women:

You do not need to be out to your parents and siblings. It is easier if you can, but you do not have to - you have the right to privacy, which includes keeping some information that your parents/sisters do not have access to. They do not have the right to know all about your life. Your wife's informed consent is however needed, but not the consent of your family of origin, since you are an adult.

She might initially freak out, but eventually that might be the wake-up call you need.

however, a better approach for right now would seem to be counseling, because while your OP focused on lack of intimacy, your subsequent response reveals a much much larger issue and one that would not get address by either disinhibiting substances or by your seeing other women. The issue is that your relationship is not equitable. It is a very big issue. The situation will get worse and worse with time, because your patience is being tried, because she offers nothing but defensiveness in response to your attempts to get through to her, and because she dismisses the idea of counseling since she has to be always in the right. I am glad you started to pay attention to your frustration and started to want a better deal for yourself. You need to act though, because this will only get worse with time - your acquiescing into her dismissing your needs, opinions, feelings, and sexual advances creates a feedback loop that reinforces her position. You need to break away. I do not know how, but you need to break away. The intimacy issue is a tip of the iceberg, it seems, and the iceberg seems to be pretty big...

Why do we expect every one to be like we are? Some people simply do not need or want intimacy. Why does that have to be a problem? Seems a little selfish to me. Expecting some one to behave a certain way so we can be happier.

Thank you for sharing casurfer and I am sorry to hear that you are experiencing these difficulties in your marriage right now.

This kind of problem in a marriage is probably more common than it might seem. However, that is not meant to trivialize your situation by any means. It sounds to me like you are feeling unappreciated and disappointed and maybe even resentful with the way your wife treats you. You feel you are trying and she is not, or at least not nearly enough.

It's good you are doing what you can to improve yourself through counseling. It is commendable that you both tried counseling together too. I would normally encourage you to improve your communication with each other or see a marriage counselor but it's apparent that those options have not been very successful. Rather I would suggest in this case that you encourage her to try counseling for herself with a personal therapist of her choice. It's possible she felt uncomfortable working through these problems initially with you present. My feeling is she has some deeply personal issues of her own which are easier for her to ignore than confront. It may be that in order to confront them, she needs to do that in a private setting that allows her to express herself in a confidential atmosphere. As she comes to terms with her own issues regarding intimacy then she can graduate to working on fixing things with you.

IndieVisible makes a valid point that people vary in their needs for intimacy. Nonetheless, in your case, your wife needs to be sympathetic to your needs too as you have prioritized her in your life. A marriage is not about two individuals living together, it is about two people that choose to experience life as united souls, to find happiness as a couple. A big part of that is looking after each others needs and putting each other first. Your role is to support her as you have and to gently and lovingly help her understand how important this is to you. I truly believe that if she sees a therapist with the goal of healing your marriage rather than falsely believing it is simply to identify everything that is wrong about her, she will learn to feel more secure about herself and that will allow her to feel more comfortable when it comes to intimacy.

Thanks Sojourn and IndieVisible for your advice.

Indie...the problem with being married to someone who is unconcerned with your intimacy/sexual needs is that usually they also have the expectation that you not 'cheat' on them. The problem is that I feel like I'm being cheated on because she has all of her needs met by me, but she does not work at fulfilling my needs. If I seek an outsider for to fulfill those needs, then I will be the 'cheater.'

Basically I am in a bad situation because I am not getting what I need to be happy and I can't do anything to fix it, nor can I tell her what I need without starting a fight.

if you get an outsider to fulfill those needs while informing her, you won't be the cheater -cheating has to do with being deceptive, and not with having outside partners per se. There is a grey area between informing and obtaining consent, admittedly, but no, it is not cheating unless you pretend to be exclusive with her while in fact having other lovers.

I am sure he wants intimacy with his WIFE. That's what being intimate is all about, otherwise it's just sex, sex that will extremely compromise the relationship, and he might as well visit porn. Hamster, I know you're trying to be soo sexually liberal and avant-garde about this stuff but I don't think having an open relationship is anywhere near appropriate advice.

Odee, Thanks for the advice, for me that's not really on the table for me at all right now. I want to be closer to my wife, we've been best friends for more than half of our lives. I think the most time we've even been apart is 2 weeks in that entire time. I guess I'm really trying to break through the barrier she puts up, and learn how to not take it personally when she has the barrier up. What I need to figure out though is how to get through all of it with her. What I never did understand is why it's such a big deal... I mean if we have the free time, then why not be together, and when we don't why not show that you're interested in each other? It's so frustrating to be the one always showing and then not having that reciprocated.

The problem is that she is expecting him to be just like her as well. If you want to think of it as selfish, them see them both as being selfish, not just one or the other. Marriage is about compromise and working together to solve problems, and for whatever the reason, she has put up walls and defenses. Her fear at being told that something is wrong with her suggests to me that she's actually in a lot of pain or has buried it and doesn't want to dig it up again to actually deal with it. I also agree that an open marriage, or even the suggestion of one, is not the way to go. I think that might just make her put up more walls.

I think the best option is to continue to try to be understanding and calmly, without aggression, anger, or defense, try to explain your point of view. I think you should definitely continue therapy on your own. Do you think if you asked her to come to therapy for your benefit, so you can understand her line of thinking better, do you think she would come? Have you talked to your therapist about this -- either the issue or ideas to convince her to come back to therapy? Maybe keep reassuring her that therapy isn't to point fingers or tell her something is wrong with her, but it's to build a stronger team and to protect your relationship with each other.

I wish you the best of luck.

Hi Casurfer,

I'm just throwing out some possibilities, and they may not have anything to do with your situation, but maybe?

Does you wife maybe have a negative body image? She doesn't feel comfortable with her own body, so it hinders her ability to find herself as a sexual being, or embarrassed about it?

You mentioned kids. How old are they? Is she completely worn out? Do you two take time for yourselves? Just the two of you? Dates?

Is your wife on any medication that may cause a low libido?

I really do agree that being in counceling for yourself is really important right now, and I would ask your therapist for suggestions. I'm sorry that you are going through this.

Imperfect....

We do go out on dates, we both workout, she gets a massage at least once a month, I watch the kids too, the kids are 10 and 8, so not too bad anymore... although she does get frustrated with them often over stuff that she shouldn't... so that may take time away. Most kids don't listen, and she can get short with them and can raise her voice fairly quickly rather than just be persistent, but I don't think it's the kids, we had these issues before the kids....

But yes you are perceptive.... her mother was slightly abusive, verbally and mostly mentally to her as a child.... and that definitely has affected her ability to open up, especially when we were younger. I think she told me once her mother told her she'd be "frigid"... I don't think she really knew what that meant.... but yes that is a problem that she has dealt with, but I don't think she really has fully addressed it. I didn't find out any of this until after we were already married, and that was after we had dated for 7 years, but when she finally told me things started to make sense.

I think this is part of why she doesn't want to go to counseling, she doesn't want to be told that something is "wrong with her"....

It's very frustrating, I do have resentment for her mother over this (and stuff she does now).... But I am patient about all of that, but now that I am getting older, I sort of see my life flashing before my eyes.... I think part of it is I am a very passionate person, and a high achiever, high energy person, so if I see a problem I just want to fix it..... but I need her support too, I don't want to go through life wondering if someone else had more compatibility with me on an intimacy level. I also don't want to go through life saying I wish we would have done this or done that.... but I can't do it all alone, I need her to come along with me. She is very independent, and so for her to follow me is hard for her.

I also think she tries to compete with me on some level, and that is where she can argue with me for no reason over stupid stuff.... but having someone do that do you often is very frustrating!!!

If she would just let go, let me lead, when it comes to intimacy and not put up the walls it would be good.

Don't get me wrong, the sex is good when we are together, it's just hard to get her to that point, where she is into it. Then when we do, I usually focus on her (I do like that), but since I'm spending so much time making things good for her, we never do things just for me you know? I told her the other day I still like to focus on her, but maybe 1 in 10 I'd like her to initiate and do the things that I like... so we'll see if she can or will.

Therapy tomorrow... so I can talk to our counselor... I haven't been in a long time, my frustration is just getting to the point where I am feeling a little depressed about the situation...

how is having sex with another woman non-intimate? visiting porn is non-intimate, but having sex with a nice woman is, in general, very intimate... I think you are trying to say that only exclusive relationships are intimate, which is not the case in reality.

that, as a general statement to bring the thread in touch with reality (reality being facts rather than ideas) - I do see that OP himself is bent on getting intimacy with the person who is not particularly enthusiastic about providing intimacy, to put it rather mildly...

Odee - open relationships have been happening for ages - it is not avant-garde. There is more open-ness about open relationships in a current society (no pun intended), which possibly means that they are occurring more frequently, but possibly simply means that the society is becoming more open. But people have been having them for ages - Simone de Beauvoir and Jean-Paul Sartre obviously come to mind as a case in point among people who were actually very open about it, but a myriad other couples simply do not advertise it to the public.

And it would be SO much better than using porn! Because porn is basically a mediocre ersatz and a real person is a real person: night and day. Plus, some people just cannot use porn - I cannot because I find it stupid and do not get aroused by it. Granted, I have only seen typical porn and not some niche porn that might be better, but just saying - when a person wants INTIMACY, as OP said - not ORGASMS, but INTIMACY, the idea of using porn is kind of... very strange. Intimacy, by definition, requires a live human who is relating to you on a personal level. I cannot see how porn can provide that.

I do think that people are uptight about the idea of open relationships in the US.... if two people want to have a relationship and be open about it, that's their choice.

For me, I want to be closer to my wife.... but let's say she didn't want to be sexually active with me at all... I could see where attempting an open relationship would be an option, but then again, why be married (except for kids) in that type of scenario.

But for now, this isn't really something I'm looking for... my wife is my best friend, I just want us to be closer as a married couple than we are now.

I think these are the problems with meeting young, and not knowing what all of the warnings signs are.... the good thing though is that we don't really have any other problems, so I am hopeful I can get her to change her attitude and see things differently!

I do not see how the problem is with meeting young - you said, in the OP, that it got a bit BETTER with age. Based on the fact that you want intimacy rather badly and did not have it at all when you got married (since you are saying that it is BETTER now, while clearly very BAD STILL, it must have been WORSE then, when you were young).

I think that you must have accumulated years and years of feeling rejected, and the accumulated grief must have resulted in your posting this thread.

So it is not an issue of being young and not knowing all the warning signs - it is an issue of your somehow not realizing back when you were young that you had the need for intimacy. Otherwise it seems entirely irrational that you'd marry her in the first place.

Couples vary in how they evolve over the years - some become more intimate and some become less intimate. There is no rule that applies to all couples. But the extreme of lacking enthusiasm you report wrt your wife sounds unusual. Plus, I just do not see what's that big of a deal for her - she is a woman so she does not need erections! If you want to do things, why would not she just go along - even if she is not hyper interested, it would make sense for her to at least go along - provided that she is, indeed, a close friend of yours who cares a bit about your feelings and needs... Since you said that you do not want her to initiate (which is unusual, just so that you know - most people would want the partners to take the initiative at least sometimes....), I conclude that you just want some simple sex - you do not need her to rip your clothes at the peak of desire, a lioness-style (or a tigress style - I am not sure what animal species has the most metaphorically active female...).

Right? You do not need that?

If so - if all you need is a little closeness, a little hugging, a little kissing, a few thrusts here and there etc. - I do not see why she'd withhold it...

i also reacted the same towards my husband after twenty years. i realized it was just menopause and the female psyche messing with me. i suffer from social phobia and even writing emails is hard for me. this was the root of my intimacy issue. hope everything works out!

No, not everyone needs intimacy but in a relationship, it is expected that the two of you share common goals and needs within that relationship. If the two aren't looking for the same level of intimacy or affection, they may not have any business seeing each other.

From what I can gather so far from your responses casurfer - you are happy with your relationship except for the frequency of intimacy. You say you are best friends concerning everything else. Differing levels of sex drive is fairly common in most relationships. That is all dependent on the individuals and their background. I have seen numerous posts on these forums about women being concerned about satiating the needs of their man and sometimes, vice-versa. This is a problem that happens quite often and it is not an impossible one to remedy nor should you have to resort to any extreme measures.

In order to solve this problem it will take compromise on both of your parts. As RomanSunburn mentioned, marriage does require compromise - every relationship does in fact if it is to have any substance to it. It seems obvious you are willing to do what it takes to help your wife feel more comfortable to be intimate with you more often. I believe she does have some personal issues to work out, probably self-esteem concerns, and finding a therapist she is comfortable with for herself can go a long way in helping her to find a greater level of happiness in her life. Since you are having difficulty communicating and coming to an agreement on this matter, that is why it would be good for her to get an outside persepctive from a professional. Since couples therapy has not worked, she probably needs to start off with a personal therapist to build her own self-worth. Of course, convincing her of that is your great challenge. Talk to her as the best friends you are. You don't have to approach it in a way that she feels you want her to get "fixed". Instead you might tell her how much you appreciate the work you are doing with your therapist and explain how it has personally helped you. Let her know that she could benefit too from learning new life strategies to make herself and each other stronger. Accentuate the positives - it's not about revealing flaws but honing strengths. Continue to be the loving, patient, supportive man you are and I am sure you will find a solution so long as you communicate your needs clearly and you listen carefully to her needs and work together based on that. Your marriage simply needs to move up to another level now and you both can do that. It all starts with self-awareness and honest and meaningful communication. Make those things your focus.

not quite so, in light of

and this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the differing levels of sex drive. Nothing whatsoever.

My question to casurfer is about the wife's status as his best friend, forgetting the sexuality issue for the moment.

How would a best friend dismiss your way every single time a difference in opinions in something as major as childrearing arises? How would that kind of attitude that seems to be consistent per your report not disqualify her from the status of your best friend? Did you have a best friend - a boy or a girl does not matter - when you were, say, 4 years old? 7 years old? 10 years old TOPS? These are the ages when the concept of a "best friend" usually gets formed. If you remember who was your best friend back then...

...you probably can remember that since this kind of a memory is one of the most stark memories of childhood (I met one of my current best friends when she and I were both four, and I remember how we played together very well and in great detail, and so does she, and, based on what writers who write about their childhoods (a common genre in prose) say, they also remember their best friends very well...

...so try to remember your best friend and ask yourself if he or she also dismissed your opinions summarily and consistently. Yes/no?

I am just trying to determine where your concept of what a best friend is comes from. Maybe you have never had an experience of having a true best friend who respects you, collaborates with you, and compromises from time to time. If you have never had such friendships, then it is not surprising that you'd be in your current state... and this is not a sexuality issue - people develop friendships way before they hit puberty...

Having an open relationship is not the way to go about the situation. Having a deeper understanding of your wife and why she has these issues is absolutely the right way to go. So suggesting counseling is a good start but she has to be just as willing as you are. It doesn't sound like you're a bad guy. You just have to get her on board and make her understand that counseling is lifting a big strain on you all relationship. From her response it seems she isn't very comfortable with other people. While that can be a hard shell to crack if you really love your wife you'll keep working on it. But you've been dealing with this for a while so if it becomes too much of a problem then the best thing for you to do is leave before you cheat. Mind you that's only a last resort after you've tried everything.

Bingo! Wow!

She is not very comfortable with other people (per her statement that she does not want anybody to tell her that something is wrong with her, and, per her steadfast refusal to collaborate on child rearing issues - collaborating requires, at the most BASIC level, being comfortable with other people).

That may be from fragile self-esteem (covered up with her being bossy, dismissing her husband's opinions on children's concerns, and her using rejecting, negative body language in response to his attempts at striking an intimate moment with her).

And from her fragile self-esteem comes the lack of a desire for intimacy and an inflexible, rigid "script" for sexual encounters that have to be "just so" for her. Having an inflexible script for sex is similar to refusing to collaborate on child rearing issues - everything has to be HER WAY.

Could it be this way? Worthy of a hypothesis? If that is the case indeed, then an open relationship is the very, very, very last thing on the list of possible solutions, since with such a fragile self-esteem, a suggestion that casurfer might get his needs for a human connection met elsewhere will make the matters worse in a split second - she will disintegrate and lose her bearings.

Hamster, I have to say, you really know nothing about this woman. None of us do, except her husband. We have no idea what she's going through, what her thoughts are. The "big deal" could be a whole slew of different things. Maybe she has panic attacks over sex. Maybe she was abused and has flashbacks. Maybe it just plain hurts. I realize there are things beyond sex that she could do, but we don't know why she won't do them. Only she does. This issue could be extremely painful to her, too. Maybe she's just as upset as her husband but doesn't want to show it (because that would show her vulnerability). Yes, there are plenty of things she needs to learn to do... communicate, compromise, open up... but there's no reason to flippantly dismiss what she could be feeling in all of this.

I think a big issue she has is being vulnerable. Maybe what her mother did to her has put her constantly on guard so now she feels like she has to be in control to protect herself. I agree, this is just going to take time and lots of reassuring that nothing is wrong with her and you just want to make your relationship stronger, gently pushing her to start therapy on her own.