desparate for advice

I'm a friend of the groom's, and you?

Sorry for interjecting, but I see at least in my interactions with my Aspie friend, that he wasn't able to really ENGAGE with people. For example...

A typical convo question might be.....

"how was your day today?"

An Aspie answer is likely to be....

"fine" (and that is the end of that, no more anything else in the convo unless I ask another question and it always (ALWAYS!) gets a one word response)

A NT answer is likely to be...

"it was ok, but my boss was all over me today about our latest project! The deadline is coming up soon and he wants everything to be perfect so he's hawking over us all, driving us nuts!"

See the difference?

One version is a dead end, one version lends itself to a continued conversation.

(I went through SIX years of this with my friend, no matter what I said I would always get one word answers unless he was mad at me and then whoo boy, WATCH OUT!)

So in this example I make a point....my point is to practice engaging in conversation so that something deeper can develop. You may be asked a question that has a simple one word answer, but what I think Aspies are missing is that its not JUST a question that needs an answer, rather someone is attempting to engage with you so that they can get to know you. Does this make sense?

If you give one word/simple answers, the conversation becomes very difficult, the NT person gets the message that you are not interested, and that is the end of that. They move on and you are left wondering what happened?

And I've heard Aspies say "why should I have to change?" Well, its pretty simple. The world is the way that it is, and if you want to be a part of the world, it is you who will have to adjust. I am not saying this to be rude. I have PTSD myself and I cannot expect the world to change one bit in order to accommodate my disorder. Its actually like this with just about every disorder out there. We must be the ones who change because we cannot change the world (with the exception of disability accommodations and things like that, but these are on a legal level, not a relational level....two very different things.)

Sorry if I sound venty, I just wish my friend was as open to change as you are. He won't change a thing and thinks everything is a-o-k, or rather all problems are my problems, I should just accept that he has this disorder and my needs aren't important in the least.

I'm his cousin, and I just moved to town.

I'm actually nervous about what to say as if it's real ... I have to think .. or please someone jump in.

I've known your cousin from grad school. He is a smart guy. I forgot to introduce myself, I'm Mr. Stranger by the way (I feel I missed the correct time, but I'm correcting my mistake . These things actually happen with me in real life, so, ... )

A friend of his is a friend of mine. I love this song they're playing!

Yes, it's a beautiful song ...

I'm going to get a drink at the bar. Can I get you something?

I think I'll come with you to see what they have. What are you drinking? (Honestly, I feel I'm doing very bad)

No, that was good! See, now there's a level of intimacy. You just kind of hooked up.

Really? I was afraid I'm creeping you out. I wasn't sure if you wanted to get rid of me and used the bar as an excuse. See, I keep thinking like this in real situations. I assume the worst, and think people just want to avoid me. Seriously. But you know, your game is genius, because I felt really nervous what to say or do next as if it's real.

In my experience, regarding the "how was your day?" question, it's usually just the opposite. NTs tend to say things like "how was your day?" without really wanting a detailed explanation but more because they want you to ask about them/theirs. So the expected 'answer' tends to be, "My day was okay. What about yours?" Hence, going into much detail about the events of my day tends to be a conversation ender.

I can't speak for all aspies, but there are two reasons I tend to give short, non-committal answers. First and foremost, a question like "how was your day?" is actually, to me, a lot more complicated than it seems. Specifically, it's vague. It could simply be a canned question with the expected answer being a canned response, e.g. "fine". It could be an intended segue to a follow-up question, as I stated above, and therefore really mean "ask me how my day was". Or it could signify genuine interest in the events of my day and my reactions, primarily my thoughts and emotions, regarding said events. In the latter case, I may not have any emotions toward the events of the day, or I may still be processing them and not know what those emotions are just yet and, therefore, be unable to talk about them. I'm alexithymic, meaning my emotions are blunted, and it takes time for me to process them. The best way I can describe this is, I don't readily feel happiness or sadness or disappointment or love; I fell pressure, just an internal pressure that could be any number of emotions, or could be general anxiety, or could be from eating too many tacos. So I may actually not be able to answer the question, and so will just say "fine" or "okay".
So, in two of the three scenarios, "fine" is the best answer, or the best one I am capable of giving. That's two of the three scenarios; not two out of three cases. The first scenario is by far the most common, meaning that "fine" is, in the majority of cases, the 'correct' answer.

And that brings me to the second reason. Early in life, I commonly said/did the wrong thing(s) in social situations. Without any real context as to what is the right thing to say/do, or why that is the right thing and another is wrong, social interactions became trial and error, with each success and failure adding to the ever growing lists of 'what to do' and 'what not to do', respectively. Consider the following dialogue:

A: "How was your day?"
B: [Goes into long explanation of the day's events and B's thoughts and feeling of said events]
A: [interrupting B] "wow, you could have just said 'fine'."

Having this happen only a few times--or maybe just once depending on the ramifications of the conversation (as in A never talks to B again. Yes, this has happened to me.)--is enough for that response to go onto the 'what not to do' list.

So, both logic and experience tell me that 'fine' is by far the safest response. It's not that I don't want to talk about my day or don't want to hear about yours; I need more, however, than "how was your day?" to indicate that a deeper discussion is wanted or even welcome.

I see your point. I do. And I do agree that we have to learn to live the world according to existing rules and expectations… to an extent. It goes without saying that one should obey traffic rules if one is to drive a motor vehicle, and similarly, one should learn the rules of social engagement, e.g. manners, respect, etiquette. But it is rather unfair to expect us to change completely to fit into a society that refuses to change or allow any leeway for atypical behavior, and for the very same reasons that it would be unfair for society to make no allowances for other disabilities.

You see, our brains are different… physically different. You can see ASD on an MRI. It's truly not a matter of being stubborn or unwilling or just not getting it; it's a matter of a brain that works differently, that processes stimuli via the 'reasoning' prefrontal cortex versus the 'reactive' amygdala. (This is not to say that nerotypicals don't use the prefrontal cortex.) The amygdala the in ASD brain is smaller and less active with fewer neural connections to other parts of the brain, meaning we are less aware of not only emotional cues in the environment, but also of our own emotional response to stimuli.

Expecting a person on the spectrum to fully grasp the nuances of eye contact, body language, and the like, to process and be able to talk about their emotions in the same way and on the same level as an allistic, to interact with the world primarily through emotions rather than primarily through reason, is the same as expecting a paraplegic to get out of their wheelchair and dance. With some treatments and with grueling physical therapy, some people are able to gain/regain some mobility, but those cases are rare, and rarer still the case of complete mobility.

Likewise, some aspies are able to 'pass' or act mostly neurotypical, but it is only ever an act and always a struggle. Furthermore, this is a catch 22 type situation. We can be comfortable with ourselves and accept our oddities-- stim in public, rock back and forth and talk to ourselves, say what we are thinking no matter how socially inappropriate or irrelevant to the topic or situation-- and of course be shunned for it. Or we can put extreme effort and energy into learning how to act 'normal', hide who and what we are, disguise ourselves. We will probably be accepted socially, at least in public and on a superficial level. Of course, we still will have trouble forging deeper connections, and if we do manage to make friends we may not be able to drop the act around them, otherwise they might feel blindsided and maybe even resentful that they were not fairly warned about what kind of relationships they were getting into.

And as for the whole 'this is the way the world works' argument, well, what about your phone, PC, tablet? The internet? The programming that runs them all? Modern math, physics, systems of governance, music, economies? Newton, Einstein, Thomas Jefferson, Leonardo DaVinci, Galileo, Alan Turing, Michelangelo, Charles Darwin, Mozart, Beethoven, Adam Smith, James Joyce, Jonathan Swift, HD Thoreau, Immanuel Kant, Bertrand Russell, Socrates, Bill Gates, Charles Babbage, Warren Buffett, Archimedes, Pythagoras, Stanley Kubrick… the list of historical and living geniuses with confirmed or high likelihood of ASD is enormous, and their contributions even larger.

Try to imagine how different the world would look today without these people. Should the world change for us? Maybe not. On the other hand, maybe it should, however, at least accept that we are not a small group of autists struggling along in an allistic world, but rather that we live in an autistic world that just happens to be populated mostly with allistic people. Why then do you get to be the arbiters of culture? Why is your way right and ours wrong? Because you outnumber us? Do I need to point out that insects outnumber humans?

I say this to elicit some deeper thought on the subject, not to offend. And please don't be offended. I find your posts honest and insightful.

@Richard: I wanted to reply yesterday the essence of your reply, but somehow I didn't. Well said. Societies are biased against people who are different. Both sides must make an effort to change and and to accept others.

I have to say, I have the same experience with what you mentioned in small talks. Several times I went into too much details, and sometimes irrelevant. So, I avoid these talks altogether. I haven't been diagnosed officially, but I think I have some traits of Asperger's Syndrome. I don't understand people's intentions and questions, and the proper/expected answer.

Complaining about the answer "Fine" for the question "How was your day?" is somewhat unfair to me, because the expectation is one sided. Neurotypical people expect autistic people to be typical although their mind is physically atypical. Why don't we understand the other side why they behave this way? Follow up questions may guide the conversation because these kind of questions are tricky to understand. It could be a question like "How are you?". People don't expect a detailed answer for that question. It could be a meaningless question that is used for acknowledgement only.

For the point which was made earlier on social skills that would resolve the issue, the difference between neurotypical people say with social anxiety and ASD people when both learn social skills, is that for the first group, these skills become an integral part of their character at the emotional level with practice and they probably will like it and become social "butterflies", which isn't the case for people with Asperger's. They are always intellectual level skills. They need to make an effort all the time. That's why maybe people with Asperger's may not appear genuine in their responses and connections, which may put neurotypical people off.

People are working hard to alleviate the stigma of MIs, and I think saying "this is how the world works" goes against this effort, because it basically says, you will never be part of society unless you become "normal". Normal in our world doesn't mean right, but, and I concur here, it means outnumbering only. That's why I have so much hatred to this world, because I cannot fit, and no one cares for the slightest effort I make to fit. They think I don't want to fit. If they can use me, they will do that (and they did), but to be on a personal connection with me, no way. There is a reason why ASD people tend to isolate and some of them compensate in realms other than the social realm.

I was subtly flirting. When I said I had just moved to town, I was opening the door to possibilities. When I said I liked the song, I was hoping you'd ask me to dance. When I said I was getting a drink and offered you one, I was showing you I cared about you and was hoping you'd take the cue, which you did, and came with me. Then that would put us both together in the next experience of getting drinks together, etc...

When I ask my husband how was his day, I am just showing him I care, and somewhat do care how was his day.

When I ask less intimate friends how they are. I am just being polite, but do really want to hear how they are, as it is a conversation starter.

When I run into people and ask how they are, it is common to just say fine, because we are busy and it's just a quick social nicety.

What do you mean by possibilities? I have to say, I was a little puzzled by that part when you (by you, I mean the fictional person you represented) said you recently moved to town (by every part really), as I thought it wasn't relevant to the question I asked, that's why I think I didn't comment on it. I thought may be it was just to fill a conversation. At one point I wanted to ask why and ask you where were you before, but thought it wasn't polite, because it seemed a personal question.

When you said you loved the song, I wasn't sure what you wanted, to talk about music or for me to ask you to dance. I thought about asking you to dance, but again, I thought it wasn't appropriate because I just started talking to you.

At least I picked up one cue, which to be honest, I fought very hard to to have the courage to act on it, because I also wasn't sure what you meant. I thought maybe you wanted to avoid me (you saying if you can bring me something was a possible polite exit), and I wanted to stay at the table, and avoid further engagement and embarrassment. It was somewhat overwhelming to engage.

I'm not sure if these are normal reactions, but I had conflicting emotions for each part. Nothing came spontaneously. I had to think all the responses very hard. And this is really what happens with me in real life. It takes me very long to decide what to say after too much conflict inside my brain, which I guess sends the signal to others that I'm not interested which isn't the case, well, not all the time at least. Too much thinking and analyzing. My brain is not helping me in that area.

You seem like a sociable and spontaneous person. Not everyone is like that. I recently finished my job, and went to see my supervisor for something, and I prayed that I wouldn't see anyone else, but I came across the secretary by coincidence, who I think is a nice person, and began asking me all these questions about what I am about to do and some other personal stuff ... etc. It was a nightmare to me. I felt that I wasn't engaging properly. It's not just the content of the conversation, but the voice's tone, the eye contact, the body language ... etc. Everything wasn't normal. I wanted to run away.

Tone means a lot. She could have been interrogating you to see if you are being sneaky in business, or she could have been giving getting a date with you one last shot.

All women are different.

I'm more subtle, putting the move back onto the man, because 1. I think men really like to feel like the conquerer and 2. I don't want to get rejected either.

Yes, the same statement or question can have different meanings depending on the nature of the relationship between two people, but how does one know where one stands with another person? Relationships tend to grow from acquaintanceship to casual friendship to close friendship, but how does that happen? How does one make the quantum leap from one level to the next, and how does one know when it's happened?

It has to do with having shared experiences together.

You meet someone, you become social with them sharing conversation and experiences, then you develop fondness that grows (or the opposite).

You mention you were taken advantage of before. It's easy to get fooled by a con artist. But every person I've known with bad intentions actually told me what they were all about. I just didn't want to listen and see those red flags.

But most people have good intentions.

I know this was a reply to Tisha but thought I'd add my 2 cents.

I don't think there are hard and fast rules about the levels of friendship, it's possible even when people are neurotypical for one person to feel they are closer friends with the other than the other feels.

However, when people are closer they tend to disclose more and more about themselves (personal things about their life) to the other, if it's two way it's safe to say that's a close friendship. If one does not disclose back that's a sign that they are not as close.

In a romantic sense of course there is also the physical side of touching - if a woman touches a man playfully it usually means she's interested. A lot of flirting is non-verbal, there is eye contact, then looking away briefly, looking back again also.

For me I think it would be how he/she talks to me, if they ask about/call me without asking for something, at least sometimes, if they include me in their circles and activities, if they help me when I need help ... etc.

I was helping a guy in grad schools a lot and he was calling me all the time pretending to ask about me to introduce his problems for me to help him. I once alluded that I need help to move. He pretended not to hear. Eventually, I realized he was using me. I dropped him and stopped answering his calls at once. I'm usually so naive to know from the beginning.

Hey there rich!
I have a friend who's social worker thought she was possibly borderline aspergers (not a social workers place I must say). She is one of the nicest people I know who has a heart of gold. When i'm upset by a serious situation she makes a joke and turns it around. My mum says she knew straight away she was, how to put it a little different, my mum said a little simple which I wouldn't agree with once u get to know my friend.
I notice that she can be honest and straight to the point at times. Trying to be helpful, but brutally honest. She is very intelligent and I find intuitive at times. When I spoke about an ex she jumped in saying, oh this girl sounds childish. And I was like yeah so she is. She also has an endless string of coffee dates every week.
She doesn't work however as she tends to fall ill with mental health issues still. She seems to have accepted her little life. She is however like an old lady, as she won't come out drinking in pubs at the weekend and goes to bed at like 8pm at night getting up at 6am. But I value her as a friend, more so than some of my others who work and go out.
A person who u describe as NT will appreciate your quirks, I assure you, and both parties can change their approach.
I've felt that I've had some connection missing my entire life ! I'm 28 and all that's changed is I'm more optimistic. Well, I've made some new pals in the last 2 0r 3 years but I have spent ten years in a lonely bubble, escaping into books, had a partner for seven years he was my only companion really. I assumed people avoided me because of stigma.
I recommended to Mr. Stranger an author called AYN RAND who writes about INDIVIDUALISM. The main character is more or less a solo sort, striving to be the best architect he can, he meets his best friend a millionaire only when his career is taking off, as a grown up. Sometimes talented people find it harder to connect with others and search for someone with their unique vision and it takes time.

Ayn Rand? wow

So her work is open to interpretation you just have to pick the parts that u agree with. Like most greats its got its fair share of flaws or ive heard one dimensional characters too. But we need the howard roarks of the world to break the mould and follow their hesrt.

To save you reading the whole novel. Check out SPARK NOTES

I was always a voracious reader so was no problem for me to digest. Im trying to concentrate on my own work now and i dont want someone elses narrative voice to interfere.

Can anyone else think of a novel thats stayed with them??

And this is the problem. I do not pick up on non-verbal... anything. Why does it have to be non-verbal? Why can't people talk? Isn't this what is supposed to set us apart form the rest of the animal kingdom?

And as for "hard and fast rules" about friendship... believe me, there are rules. They are unwritten, and no one will tell you what they are or even admit to there being rules. But those of us who apparently can't help but break the rules (rules we don't know and no one will tell us) definitely know there are rules.