[Patagonia]

Just ruminating on some thoughts about this word "commitment" associated with the institution of marriage. I'm not bashing it, honestly.
I think the term marriage should be replaced with the word "lease" like you would get with a car. Set it for a certain amount of time & then come back & see if you wanto continue.

Is there anything else in our lives that we vow to keep forever? Even a 30 yr mortgage can be refinanced. Legally we are committed to raise our offspring to the age of 18 yrs old. But marriage we feel obligated to stay in till death.

I know there are couples out there that have found their life partners & will stay together till the end. They would renew that lease. And yes I understand that divorce is an option for almost half of married couples, but that word leaves a bitter taste in our mouths & leaves others with negative thoughts.
So why is this religiously based institution still around & still cherished by so many?
Just my thoughts.
Any comments?

[SorryShaped]

Originally Posted by Patagonia

Just ruminating on some thoughts about this word "commitment" associated with the institution of marriage. I'm not bashing it, honestly.
I think the term marriage should be replaced with the word "lease" like you would get with a car. Set it for a certain amount of time & then come back & see if you wanto continue.

Is there anything else in our lives that we vow to keep forever? Even a 30 yr mortgage can be refinanced. Legally we are committed to raise our offspring to the age of 18 yrs old. But marriage we feel obligated to stay in till death.

I know there are couples out there that have found their life partners & will stay together till the end. They would renew that lease. And yes I understand that divorce is an option for almost half of married couples, but that word leaves a bitter taste in our mouths & leaves others with negative thoughts.
So why is this religiously based institution still around & still cherished by so many?
Just my thoughts.
Any comments?

Lots of animals mate for life. I'm told marriage was started to control disease, by the church, but I'm too lazy to look that up. I do believe there's forever for most people, and I'm certainly an exception. I also think a marriage should be a commitment that people are allowed to make, and I'm not put off by the term "divorce." I wear that word like a badge because it means I recognize that I made a serious mistake and now I hopefully know better. It also means that I do know when to quit, throw in the towel, part ways, take my leave, or any other phrases appropriate here. Divorce means liberation to me as well. It means I cannot be hurt by her, because they no longer have a position of power in my life.
I don't picture being married again. I could be convinced to grow older with someone, if it were the right circumstances. I don't think I can trust people like that right now though.

[Patagonia]

As I believe in humans developing from the primate kingdom....only 11-12% of primates mate for life. Yet, we humans, think it should last longer.
As I understand it, marriage was instituted by families to gain power, land & social influence. It was never based on love, but by what would benefit both families in this union.
But you associate the word divorce as a "mistake". Which I think most do. Does it have to be seen as a mistake? Because the criteria for a marriage equals staying together for life.
If there was like a yearly contract system maybe it would get rid of this harsh feeling of being a failure.
Idk really.

[SorryShaped]

Originally Posted by Patagonia

As I believe in humans developing from the primate kingdom....only 11-12% of primates mate for life. Yet, we humans, think it should last longer.
As I understand it, marriage was instituted by families to gain power, land & social influence. It was never based on love, but by what would benefit both families in this union.
But you associate the word divorce as a "mistake". Which I think most do. Does it have to be seen as a mistake? Because the criteria for a marriage equals staying together for life.
If there was like a yearly contract system maybe it would get rid of this harsh feeling of being a failure.
Idk really.

Have a seat Ms, uh what's your name? I have just reviewed your contract and it seems you qualify for our new Unlimited Free Time Plan. This UFTP gives certain individuals, you in this case, the right to go out and do as you [expletive] well please with whomever you like, but are no longer to be part of this organization. There was to be a severance package but as you violated the contract and used an outside vendor, you no longer qualify for that clause. Note that you will be given 24 hours to vacate the premises, and can find the majority of your property at a donation center to be later divulged. Thank you for your time here with us.

[Patagonia]

Originally Posted by SorryShaped

Have a seat Ms, uh what's your name? I have just reviewed your contract and it seems you qualify for our new Unlimited Free Time Plan. This UFTP gives certain individuals, you in this case, the right to go out and do as you [expletive] well please with whomever you like, but are no longer to be part of this organization. There was to be a severance package but as you violated the contract and used an outside vendor, you no longer qualify for that clause. Note that you will be given 24 hours to vacate the premises, and can find the majority of your property at a donation center to be later divulged. Thank you for your time here with us.

Ummmm ????

[SorryShaped]

Originally Posted by Patagonia

Ummmm ????

It was an attempt at comedy. It's a husband terminating his cheating wife's "marriage contract."

I share your view, Patagonia. I don't disbelieve in marriage, or the idea of finding the right person that you want to be with for the remainder of your life, but I do feel this ideal is superimposed on us. And when we can no longer keep up the facade, and take the plunge to separate, we end up feeling guilty, or like we've failed in the eyes of society, because we didn't snag our forever mate.

Nature is a lot more chaotic than the rules we've all collectively agreed on about matehood. Again, I am NOT slamming anyone who chooses to stay with their spouse until the end, or keep searching for their soulmate. I just feel a lot of people would benefit from shifting their perspective on the whole endeavor. Maybe you do find a person who enriches your entire life, up to the end; maybe you don't. Maybe someone enriches you for a while, and then it ceases. Maybe it never happens. But these outcomes don't deserve the social stigma that's been built around them.

[Patagonia]

Originally Posted by SorryShaped

It was an attempt at comedy. It's a husband terminating his cheating wife's "marriage contract."

Ok so now I understand what you're referring to (not me in particular), but if there was a contract of sorts there wouldn't be a termination; just a parting of ways.

[SorryShaped]

Originally Posted by Patagonia

Ok so now I understand what you're referring to (not me in particular), but if there was a contract of sorts there wouldn't be a termination; just a parting of ways.

My wit tends to give the Sahara a run for it in moisture content. It's also not very good and very few understand it.
I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by Patagonia

So why is this religiously based institution still around & still cherished by so many?Just my thoughts.
Any comments?

So this is how it all started. Back in the day women were not allowed to work. Legally they were completely dependent on a man. At first a woman was dependent on dad. But dad couldn't live forever so marriage was born as a way to care for women. It was literally a contract where a caring father saw a way to get a man to care for his daughter -- FOR LIFE. Which was the point. In exchange the guy got a guaranteed person to have sex with for life. Often father's paid *bribes* or dowries to tempt a good husband. There was no divorce because that would have ruined the entire deal for the father who needed to care for his daughter. That is why marriage had to be "for life" because it was a contract for the care of a woman for life.

Religion only got into it later on but marriage was primarily a legal contract.
This legal and religious contract was still in full effect until as recently as the early 1900s. But now, now that women can work and take care of themselves society has tried -- in vein - to keep this arrangement in effect. But, it just isn't working. A life time coupledom (gay or straight) is good for society. There is so much that society gains from people living together. They get to pay less wages because 2 people can live more economically than one. Health care gets to pawn care off on spouses or wives, imagine if they had to care for people after surgery when now they just require you bring someone to take care of you.

I only hope more people like you start wondering what the heck the point is.

[Erebos]

A brief history of marriage.

http://www.livescience.com/37777-his...-marriage.html

I have never believed humans were meant to maintain one relationship for life.
Some animals do?
I don't understand how that is relevant.

Human beings grow, and change so much in a lifetime, often several times over.
To believe we would find a single person who would grow and change at the same pace, liking the same things, wanting the same life and altering to suit our physical tastes all at the perfect moment, seems crazy.

Of course it doesn't have to be perfect all the time, but you don't have to flog a dead horse either.
As you get older you change less, so it's easier for things to last longer.
I have found as I get older a year in a relationship is nothing, thAt I am just going along doing my own thing and if my fell wants to join me, that's,awesome, if not. I Will catch him on the flipside. We do ok.
Oddly enough though I still feel marriage is a one time deal. Funny that. :-D

[divine1966]

In the Western world people aren’t forced to get married or stay married. It’s fine to stay single or get divorced. Plenty of my friends have never been married and they live their lives just fine. Marriage is forever for some and not forever for others. My marriage wasn't working out for me so i got divorced. Being single worked just fine for me for many years. Saw no need to marry. Then I did marry second time. It works for me now too. I do what works for be

I don’t see any kind of issue either way. I was single then married then divorced then married and at no point I felt I HAD to do something. Not really. I do whatever the heck suits me at the moment as long as no one gets hurt. I am self supporting educated woman and certainly don’t see any need to be trapped either way. I really see it as non issue. I enjoy company of my husband and don’t intent to end it but if I start doing it just out of obligation, I’d be out like a light. Life is too short to live in misery . Never did and never will

Now in cultures where it’s hard to get divorced or you are forced to marry into arranged marriage, then it’s a tragedy. Here, not really.

Ps I don’t know and don’t care about religious aspect as I got married in court both times. I don’t bother with ceremonies and both times it was interfaith marriage anyways

[Patagonia]

Originally Posted by divine1966

In the Western world people aren’t forced to get married or stay married. It’s fine to stay single or get divorced. Plenty of my friends have never been married and they live their lives just fine. Marriage is forever for some and not forever for others. My marriage wasn't working out for me so i got divorced. Being single worked just fine for me for many years. Saw no need to marry. Then I did marry second time. It works for me now too. I do what works for be

I don’t see any kind of issue either way. I was single then married then divorced then married and at no point I felt I HAD to do something. Not really. I do whatever the heck suits me at the moment as long as no one gets hurt. I am self supporting educated woman and certainly don’t see any need to be trapped either way. I really see it as non issue.

Now in cultures where it’s hard to get divorced or you are forced to marry into arranged marriage, then it’s a tragedy. Here, not really.

I do understand your POV & you've stated this before. I'm sure this works for you, but I'd like to look at the entire picture. As a society, not individualIstic. This ancient ritual of being with another human for life.
I'm wondering if it goes back to cro-magnum times. Drag this woman into the cave & keep her.
Many things in our lifetime have changed, yet this one is still holding on. Maybe by a thread?

Originally Posted by divine1966

In the Western world people aren’t forced to get married or stay married. It’s fine to stay single or get divorced.

No there is definitely a social stigma. Not to mention the financial cost of divorce which frankly shouldn't really be. it is like society wants to make it tough to get out of it for a myriad of reasons.

I also believe in the "arranged alliances" thing. I think that even happens now, a LOT. I suspect many hollywood marriages are arranged alliances and I also suspect that in politics. Obama and his wife and Hillary and Bill. I suspect at the top levels marriage is more like a mutual pact for getting what you want and both cheat as long as they keep it on the down low.

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by Emily Fox Seaton

No there is definitely a social stigma. Not to mention the financial cost of divorce which frankly shouldn't really be. it is like society wants to make it tough to get out of it for a myriad of reasons.

I also believe in the "arranged alliances" thing. I think that even happens now, a LOT. I suspect many hollywood marriages are arranged alliances and I also suspect that in politics. Obama and his wife and Hillary and Bill. I suspect at the top levels marriage is more like a mutual pact for getting what you want and both cheat as long as they keep it on the down low.

With at least 50% divorce rate I really don’t see how that could be a social stigma in the US or Europe. If something effects half or more of the population I really don’t see how it could be stigma to be divorced? Perhaps depends where you live. No one cares where I am at

Cost of divorce in the US has nothing really to do with marriage. We are very litigious society hence anything “legal” costs ton of money.

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by Emily Fox Seaton

No there is definitely a social stigma. Not to mention the financial cost of divorce which frankly shouldn't really be. it is like society wants to make it tough to get out of it for a myriad of reasons.

I also believe in the "arranged alliances" thing. I think that even happens now, a LOT. I suspect many hollywood marriages are arranged alliances and I also suspect that in politics. Obama and his wife and Hillary and Bill. I suspect at the top levels marriage is more like a mutual pact for getting what you want and both cheat as long as they keep it on the down low.

Yes many marriages are allliances for many reasons. Convenience and so on, not just for celebrities

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by Patagonia

I do understand your POV & you've stated this before. I'm sure this works for you, but I'd like to look at the entire picture. As a society, not individualIstic. This ancient ritual of being with another human for life.
I'm wondering if it goes back to cro-magnum times. Drag this woman into the cave & keep her.
Many things in our lifetime have changed, yet this one is still holding on. Maybe by a thread?

It’s holding on but it’s not unchanged. People now live together unmarried or choose singlehood for life or get divorced or have kids by themselves etc Marriage is a choice now. So you can’t say it didn’t change as an institution. It did as it now became a choice. In the past it was pretty much the only way to live. Not anymore

[Patagonia]

Yes it has changed, that's very true. But the "loophole" of divorce has been around since the birth of the protestant religion. I think. I'm not 100% sure but let's just say for a long time. And since that time it's had a negative connotation attached with it. I think it does anyway.

I was watching a show & these actors went around the table saying who they were according to these sexual abbreviations & what pronoun they like to be called. So I had to stop & research all these abbreviations. They were new to me & I thought, wow, that's awesome that they feel comfortable enough in society to talk about this openly & we as a society are starting to accept this. I started to read some articles that confirmed this. What a great change in really, a short amount of time.

So I was thinking if this change could happen in such a huge area as sexual identification is there a chance to overhaul our idea of marriage & how it's portrayed in society.
Now the religious part of marriage I'm not sure will ever change. Catholics still believe that your marriage must be annulled to continue in the catholic faith. But this is just one religion I am familiar with. And I think this also changes according to who you talk to for information. I do not know how the other religions view marriage &/or divorce.
I'm just wondering if more "loopholes" could be added to it to make it more convenient for all....if they choose it.

[FallDuskTrain]

It is a legal contract that is supposed to last forever because being a parent and a family member is a role that lasts forever with lifelong responsibilities. Hence the need to protect the legal family union.
Until recently, marriage was not associated with love; rather with the legal protection of the children and family assets. In fact, it was rare for those who in love to get married.
In any event, this started changing around the start of the 17th century and the concept of marriage and love were combined; putting a huge amount of pressure on the legal contract called the marriage.

[divine1966]

I think even if we are talking about the US or any other western country it’s not universal kind of culture. What’s common or expected in some circles are unheard of in others.

There is a lot of change in a society but it depends where you live (small conservative town down south or large city on the East Coast) or and what you know (have you seen other places) and how you were raised and where you work and who you associate with. Marriage means so many different things to me people. That’s why you can’t really discuss institution of marriage not in relationship to specific cultures.

I also wouldn’t look at marriage as institution oppressive to women. I know way too many men oppressed by marriage while married and after divorce (alimony and so on). So marriage could be oppressive or could be simply a choice. Depends on who you ask.

If you were raised by parents who condemn divorce, surely you think it’s a stigma and live in misery because you (hypothetical you) are afraid what people might think. If your parents value independence and free choice, you will not allow yourself to be oppressed and likely wouldn’t care what people think .

[Patagonia]

I feel if you would ask anyone, in any culture, any place in the world, "how long should a marriage last?" I feel most would say, ideally forever so I feel it can be discussed.
I understand that parents play an early mindset role in young adults regarding values ethics etc, but I feel those characteristics are not ingrained, thank god.
What I'm still steering towards is just the lofty idea of making the idea of marriage....not so rigid, something with more choices.

Maybe I just need to think about it some more...crazy idea anyway.

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by Patagonia

I feel if you would ask anyone, in any culture, any place in the world, "how long should a marriage last?" I feel most would say, ideally forever so I feel it can be discussed.
I understand that parents play an early mindset role in young adults regarding values ethics etc, but I feel those characteristics are not ingrained, thank god.
What I'm still steering towards is just the lofty idea of making the idea of marriage....not so rigid, something with more choices.

Maybe I just need to think about it some more...crazy idea anyway.

There are choices though.

Some people have open marriage. Some married couples are polyamorous and are in a relationship with another couple. Some are being more of companions with no romance. Some just end their marriages. Some decide to never marry ( I know a couple with grown children, been together 30 years and never married). Some are in common law marriage. Some choose to live apart and do their own thing while legally married. Some would ndber divorce no matter what. Endless options and endless ways of conducting marriages.

Why do you think making marriage less rigid is a new idea? Or that everyone has the same view on marriage? Or that people have to be married? Are you from a very conservative background?

[Patagonia]

I guess I don't now.

I guess bec the institution of marriage on this big blue marble is religious based for many. The idea of staying with this other person till death is pretty significant.
The top religion in the world is Christianity at 2.2 Billion followed by the Islam faith at 1.6 Billion so I think just a few of those people think marriages should last forever. Or maybe their all lying?
The Hindus, I've not fully researched.
So I'm talking here about this institution of marriage & how it is viewed by these billions of people. Not the poly population or the common law people who I'm guessing make up a small percentage. I'm looking at this vast word of marriage "globally. "
And I really don't think my background has anything to do with this conversion per say. I know people are individuals & have their own outlook like you say, very well, but I was trying to push past that.
In fact the thread was supposed to be a bit humorous bec I compared it to leasing a car! Maybe asking for a certain model car or technology updates etc.
I'm sorry if this thread has gotten you annoyed. It was just a thought process.
Sorry.

[LaraR4444]

To try to be as open-minded as I can, I think it depends on your expectation of marriage. If you are only making a financial commitment or to enjoy someone as long as they make you happy, then I guess that kind of marriage doesn't need to last. But the kind of marriage where people want to invest their hearts and lives in each other, challenge themselves, fight together through good and bad, and keep returning to each other even when it gets hard, will both require and inspire eternal commitment. I think it's important for someone to figure out as honestly as possible what they really want from marriage. Speaking for myself, if I can't find someone I can do the latter with, I'd rather be single. I can't get or give or all I want unless it's that important to both of us.

[rjdb]

Marriage is for kids imo.