The ELEPHANT in the relationship

From the article above:

It doesn't JUST fix itself and understanding why this is so is important not only for the alcohol addict but for those who are on the receiving end of the mood swings the addict experiences.

I tried so hard to help a friend stop and learn to live her life a different way, I could not and she died at age 50ish. As a result, I distance from active alcoholics, however, I DO respect those that are dedicated to living their lives sober. It's VERY hard to deal with an active alcoholic and many have shared the deep hurts and even trauma it can cause. And the alcoholic doesn't WANT to recognize that when they are actively engaged in the disease.

When I sit and think about what I read I realize that all those years ago because I put my foot down, I saved my husband's life. Yet, I am so grateful for all the individuals that mentored him in the AA program that helped him slowly learn to live his life sober.

All those years ago I did not have the information that I shared here in this thread. So, I did not know what someone dealt with when experiencing the progression that takes place with this disease. My husband is very active in AA and helping others learn to stay sober. It's been a challenge with Covid and just recently they have been having meeting gatherings with social distancing. My husband explained how much that helps verses the Zoom meetings. Having support is crucial when it comes to learning how to stay sober.

Giving thought to learning how alcohol affects the brain, it explains a lot of behaviors that a person who doesn't have a problem experiences. The problem with someone that is abusing alcohol is that they tend to act on impulse instead of really thinking about what they say and choose to do. Things that a sober individual would not choose to do, the individual abusing alcohol often does without realizing how their behavior is inappropriate. Often an individual consuming alcohol to maintain will say things they should not say, it can actually be embarrassing for the person who doesn't have a problem.

That is what I noticed about the friend I had that was an alcoholic. She would choose to say things that were very inappropriate and LOST her ability to understand that she can't expect ALL people to listen to her drama issues. And at a certain level of alcohol in her brain there was no way to even help her refrain as that would only make things worse. She would either get loud and make it worse or she would just ignore and continue her behavior.

It tends to be about whatever feels good at whatever level of alcohol she consumed. It was a waste of time to sit and talk to her as I did try often. When she consumed a certain amount anything I had said not to do went right out the window.

I am sharing this because often people that are in relationships with someone who abuses alcohol don't truely realize why a partner or friend or family member seems to respond but then doesn't really change the behavior pattern. It's the way this disease affects the individual that gets confused and it doesn't matter how receptive the individual is, they will continue the behavior because of how the alcohol consumption is affecting them.

So, it was a good friend that was divorcing her alcoholic husband that explained to me how to know "there is a problem". It was not long before I had a fight with my husband who once again drank until he blacked out and was out all night. Back then there were no cell phones so it was not easy to find out where a person was or if they were ok. So I ended up spending the night at my friend's house and she took me to an Alanon meeting. I will never forget that experience because the people I saw all looked horrible, literally as though the life was sucked out of them. And the next thing I know several of these people were telling me to leave my husband. I did hate it when he drank but I really did love him and certainly was not ready to experience what I did at that meeting.

It took me time to think about that experience and finally that's when I said to my husband that I could not live the way I was living anymore and that either he did something about his drinking or I would divorce him. That same night he went to an AA meeting and 29 years later has not drank any alcohol. He came home admitting that he did not realize he had a problem and that he was going to stop drinking.

When he celebrates another year of sobriety, while I do appreciate that he kept his word, I also remember how it was when I had to worry. I also remember how just not drinking was only the first step and all the things he had to learn which kept him from maturing. The way he ran away by choosing alcohol not realizing it was inhibiting his level of maturity that he had to work on.

He remained active in AA and he continued to get help and he helped others. So, when I think of the years I also think about how he also was committed to helping/saving others too. Every once in a while I hear him talking with others because someone went out and drank and no one knew where he was. It reminded me of what it felt like for me when that happened. Then he would have to leave early to go and pick up someone that lost their license and he would get that person to a meeting. Then there are the older ones that can't drive anymore and they take turns getting him to meetings or have even had small meetings at the individual's house.

People tend to think of an alcoholic as some homeless bum. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It affects people from all walks of life. Yes, even professionals that hold high positions that one would never think had the problem. Yet, in the rooms, none of that matters and what matters is helping someone learn how to live their life differently.

It's a big decision to stay with someone that has a problem. I had not realized that when I chose to stay and support my husband's effort to stop drinking and change his lifestyle. There is always that part of the person that will be involved with this disease even when no longer actively in the disease. I try to think about that in a way that means "saving" the lives of others and respecting how challenging that can be.

I do not care to engage with someone active in the disease because they do NOT have the ability to respect my space. Their needs happen and the world has to revolve around them no matter what I am dealing with. And they can be very entitled when it's actually inappropriate. It's as though all else disappears except their needs and they do not even see it. There is definitely a lot of narcissism in this disease.

When someone finally commits to living their life sober, depending on what stage they are at they have to learn to go to a meeting instead of the bar they know or go to a meeting instead of sitting at night drinking away their frustrations. And for those who drink daily, they often have to go to meetings during the day instead of grabbing that dose of alcohol to function. They have to learn that when they get the urge to call their sponsor and to remember their sponsor is helping them and not take their frustrations out on the sponsor. They DO support each other and agree to be on the support list to call instead of grabbing the alcohol. I do remember that all too well and even now when my husband insists on taking calls when certain individuals call him.

I have met a husband and wife that both had problems and they would go to meetings together constantly. Sometimes one partner would decide to get sober first even though their partner still engaged. Then after a while their partner seeing things get better would also end up working at it too. Gradually, these individuals learned they could socialize WITHOUT the aide of the alcohol and still enjoy interacting with others.

I think that Covid restrictions has hindered these important and necessary meetings that many depend on. It's amazing watching how people who know the importance have created other ways to have people be able to interact when needed. Many had set up ways on their own property with bonfires and places to sit socially distancing and helping others get there to attend. It's extremely cold out right now so these efforts had to stop.

There is also a fear that some who have several years sober may give in and drink and that's very bad because it's not like being able to start over, instead it goes right back to where that individual left off. And I have learned that some did drink and died of liver failure because of it. I don't like to overhear that because that's what happened to my friend, her liver and organs all failed even though she was still relatively young.

I have this thread because I know people really do not realize how alcohol addiction can ruin relationships. Even the alcoholic often doesn't get it and would prefer to believe it's not THE problem. And instead it's always someone else's fault there is a problem when problems come up in relationships.

Recently I had another talk with my older brother and HIS grieving consists of his memories of things he witnessed when my parents came home from the club they belonged to drunk. He talked about one night that it was so bad he was VERY frightened. Last time I called him he was in such a bad mood, I thought maybe I was bothering him and it made me question "am I being an inconvenience?" Then I talked to him the next day and he shared that he got in an arguement with his boss and his boss is an alcoholic. He talked about happiness is a choice and that even though he had a terrible day he did not bring that problem into his own relationship. He doesn't remember how he sounded when I called him. Once he shared with me things he experienced with our parents that frightened him, I think when he deals with his boss when he drinks and gets hard to interact with it triggers him.

I posted in someone's thread about grieving and how it's hard to know what to say sometimes. I talked about how I never got involved with Facebook and that I am a very private person. What I didn't share is one of the reasons I don't and want to be private is because I don't want people who had problems with alcohol and drugs to know anything about me. My husband engages facebook and one day he located someone from my past, an old boyfriend that I was so in love with but he loved his drugs/alcohol the most. And this guy shared his years sober and how he was grateful to those who helped him because he was very addicted. A part of me was happy for him that he got help, yet, there is that other part that really suffered because of his commitment to engaging and how unhealthy that was for me. They don't see themselves as ABUSERS, instead they tend to see themselves as VICTIMS. They don't SEE the narcissistic abusive behavior patterns that exists in their problem either. They don't SEE what it does to others who ARE true VICTIMS OF ABUSE. They are not on the RECEIVING END of THEIR PROBLEM.

Truth? and HONESTY? Oh they may preach it but THE ARE NOT BEING HONEST!!. It's NEVER their fault either is it? In a relationship where the affects of the alcohol or whatever drug hurts a partner that is a form of being CHEATED ON. Oh, maybe it's not with another person HOWEVER it's still a relationship that DAMAGES as it's cheating with the alcohol or drugs or both.

All my life I have been on the receiving end of how people that drink BEHAVE BADLY. And they are ENABLED by others "oh, you don't drink that much, oh you are not a bad person" etc. I sit and listen to my brother when he shares even though it's hard to hear. Why? Because he has EVERY RIGHT to talk about how he was HURT AND ABUSED.

Recently I read an article about how Jamie Lee Curtis just celebrated 22 years of sobriety and one thing she said that stuck with me is how "she was at war with herself" while she was active in the drinking. I sat and thought about that statement a lot. And the truth is that given the way alcohol affects the brain and how someone uses it to cope, all it does is create this ongoing war with self. It's not coping either, instead it's an effort to escape. For anyone that SUFFERED because of this challenged relationship with SELF, the last thing you want to see is someone saying "It's ok, you can drink" when you have suffered the LOSS or consequences of what it's like to engage with that kind of individual. When someone is at war with self like this, there is no room for a HEALTHY relationship because it's mostly all about the person who is at war with self. So, in reality THAT is why this problem has so many narcissistic behavior patterns. And there IS a trail of broken relationships and resentments. And often "this person failed me" comments. No, it's never the problem drinkers fault or the poor decisions they made that put them in the position in the first place. This is discussed in different articles including the one I am going to post a link to today. What is good about THIS article is how it discusses even more about how alcohol consumption affects the brain. And THAT is what my older brother witnessed that frightened him so badly. He has brought that experience up more than once. I never let him know he already told me either, it's clear to me he needs to share it and finally get comforted for how it deeply affected him. He deserves to be able to grieve his own losses.

Here is the newest article: There are other articles that provide important information so any reader will LEARN why it's important not to enable someone who is engaging and sharing the problems they experience as a result. You are NOT helping someone who has a problem by enabling that person. And for anyone who is following that has a problem, please get help as you are only in denial and you need to get real help. You are NEVER going to solve your ongoing battle through using alcohol. Make the decision that you deserve better and get help.

Drinking Alcohol and The Risk of Violence | Alcohol.org

Here is another article with important information. It's important to understand what IS changing the other person in whatever the relationship is be it friend, parent, spouse, or boyfriend or sibling or even one's own child. Often individuals with anxiety disorders turn to alcohol to cope, however, the alcohol's true affects on the brain actually contribute to making the challenge even worse. We often talk about how it's not appropriate to diagnose another person and how that is a job for a professional. It's important to keep that in mind when someone shares the problems they have when consuming alcohol do not diagnose. Telling that person they do not have a problem is inappropriate in that only a professional can determine that. However, what my friend told me many years ago now does ring true, "If alcohol is brought up during relationship challenges there IS a problem". Then she took me to an alanon meeting and that's when I finally told my husband I could no longer live with his problem. That is the day 29 years ago he went an AA meeting and learned he DID have a problem and he has not had a drink since. He has made many friends that also are committed to living their lives sober.

Mental Health and Alcohol Abuse: Pychological Effects of Drinking

What happens in a relationship with someone who has a problem with alcohol is there is no room for ANY healthy relationship as long as the ALCOHOL addiction use comes first for the individual. It is recognized as a mental illness. Truth is after spending time reading about it with what is known now compared to when I was so much younger, what I am learning makes me see it in a different light.

There is a lot of talk about narcissists and gaslighting and how hard that is on the person on the receiving end. However, people who have alcohol addictions DO practice gaslighting. They make up things to fill in the blanks of what they can't remember. They don't want to know they have a problem so they gaslight others and themselves. They can be nice and friendly and then they can be down right mean. And it all depends on where they are in terms of their alcohol consumption and withdrawl where their body and mind is craving the alcohol. Yes, Jamie Lee Curtis described it perfectly too, "it's being at war with self" and for a friend or spouse or family member, it's more of being their victim and living around their "constant war with self".

It's hard when society normalizes drinking alcohol. When I was young it was extremely normalized and I was not one that cared to consume very much. I remember how others tended to make fun of me because of that too. I used to have two glasses of wine and switch to tea. And then I switched to gingerale so they would not make fun of me and think I was drinking. All my life I had to deal with those who ran to alcohol while I ran from it.

I gave up singing on stage because of it. I got attacked on stage, stalked, chased in parking lots, and pushed into my car by a drunk and he began trying to pull off my dress and fortunately a friend pulled up and stopped it. It contributed to my desire to be a private person, something I had not consciously realized. I did not drink much at all when I performed, I had to pay attention and the singing and music was what relaxed me. All the things said about performing? They are true in that everyone wants a piece of you. Adding alcohol into that mix is especially toxic. It doesn't matter how I felt, all that mattered was how that person under the influence felt. When I was young none of what I have posted was explained and a lot of it is knowledge gained many years later.

I loved my father but he did have a problem. My therapist told me to watch this series called "Mad Men" and I only managed to watch one episode or two and it reflected what it was like for my parent's generation. Drinking alcohol was so normalized, during business lunches and dinners and happy hours. So, it was not all that unusual for men like my father to think they did not really have a problem. It was assumed those that had the problem were the ones that had to drink even in the morning and every day. Those who had the problem were those who could not work and earn a living. Yet many learned how to work and have a problem with alcohol unknowingly, mostly because it was so prevelant.

The more I learn about it, the more I appreciate how my husband chose to stop rather than lose me. He had to learn how to live his life very differently. He had to learn how to make different friends and distance from the friends he knew as drinking buddies. People have said some very MEAN things to me over the years too. I try to keep in mind that it's people who still have problems and don't want to know, or people who don't really understand what "love" means. Yes, there are times you love someone that loves you enough to stop and try, and there will always be those who will condemn. The one thing I have learned is there will always be those who don't care to respect the journey and what it means. So again, I have learned to be private about it because I know the consequences of sharing it. I do admit, it is very much a part of the ptsd I struggle with.

I am grateful to those who commit to the journey of learning to live their lives sober. It made it possible for my husband to learn to do the same with a lot of support. It IS important to see this ELEPHANT because it does cause so much pain. It's too hard to argue with someone who is actively engaged and if they need to choose the alcohol over a healthy relationship, then it's time to completely distance. Otherwise, they keep pulling you into their disease just as a narcissist practices "hoovering". And they don't even realize it and want you to enable them and babysit them instead while the keep embracing their disease.

Is this person a narcissist? This is often something asked by those in any kind of relationship with an alcoholic.

Here is a good article that explains why that question comes up.

10 Ways Narcissists and Alcoholics Are Similar | Psychology Today

Also, it's important to understand that once you do set a boundary you may be subjected to rages and anger and efforts to make you out to be "the bad guy".

It simply may have to be that YOU are at fault and deserve being REJECTED.

Alcoholic Spouse | What To Do If My Spouse Is An Alcoholic

I have been sitting here for a while this morning and reading about what it means to love someone who has the disease/illness of alcoholism. There are a lot of challenges it causes to someone who is sober, be it a child of an alcoholic, a spouse of an alcoholic, a parent of an alcoholic, and a sibling of an alcoholic, or even having a friend with the problem.

I have most definitely suffered from a lot of cognitive dissonence because of this challenge. I have also suffered a lot of emotional abuse too. Someone who has this problem can "seem" nice and then they can have a darker side too. There is definitely a Jeckle and Hyde that presents with this challenge and I have been on the receiving end of it many times throughout my life.

I do believe that individuals that suffer from alcoholism deserve to get help. It's true that these individuals are at war with themselves just as Jamie Lee Curtis describes in her recent discussion about being sober for 22 years. The problem with this challenge is in how consuming it is and how there is very little room for the person who is on the recieving end. I do believe that people that become alcohol or drug abusers don't start out by wanting to become the addict. I think at first the person simply enjoys the high and relaxed feeling they experience from alcohol/drugs and it's possible that individual doesn't realize how they begin engaging more and more.

When I talk to my older brother, he expresses a lot of anger. At times it's hard to listen to what he shares too. He has been very respectful and had helped me with some extremely challenging situations when it comes to my older sister. Yet, at the same time there is a limit to the emotions I am able to express. And that is indicitive of what it's like when it comes to growing up or being around an alcoholic.

There is always this golden rule I had to follow that I didn't even realize, "always make sure you stick to talking about THEM". I have to remember the importance of making sure I keep things directed towards THEIR NEEDS because if I don't I will most definitely face some kind of blow back. Yup, as long as I keep things about THEM AND THEIR NEEDS, it's safer for me. Did you ever have someone tell you they have no respect for you and yet that individual had a problem with alcohol addiction?

There is this commercial that comes on where someone is singing "Walk a mile in my shoes, Walk a mile in my shoes". And one of the things that has come VERY CLEAR to me is how quickly people can judge you when they have NO IDEA what your life has been like.

I was the last one to leave home and there were many nights where I would come home and my father would be in the kitchen with a fire lit drinking his wine alone. I often sat and talked to him until the sun began to come up. I did not do much talking about myself, but instead I listened to him talk. There were a lot of things he experienced in his life. To KNOW someone is being able to sit and LISTEN and I did want to know my father. I did not think about his sitting there drinking that wine as alcoholism. Instead there was something "lonely" about what he was doing. I learned that by sitting and listening to him, which I did do several times, that I got to walk in his shoes, sort of like reading a book about him and what his life was like. I look back and think that he had to face a lot of challenging things in his life despite being very young. He tended to be very much into "self" with all these things he shared. I think he did need a presence he could talk about it all with.

Years later when he could no longer sit and drink his wine because he fell down one time too many and broke some ribs, I was at my sister's house and noticed him quietly sitting alone by the fire. So I sat with him and began talking to him about his past. I pretty much got so I could tell he was staring into that fire and recalling his past (something he did a lot). I guess I knew he was alone with it so I sat with him so he would not be so alone. And that last time as he was sharing things with me, some of which he was repeating, I thought about how very young he was when he experienced all these things. I said to him, "My god daddy, you were only 17 and so young, that's really just a child yet". And I actually knew this being a mother of a 17 year old and KNOWING how young that really is. And for the first time he looked right into my eyes, and this time the one I was talking to was that very young child that had to see and understand things even though he was really just still a child. It was that young boy that waited his entire life to have someone else recognize how hard it was for him when he was so very young. Actually, I came across a picture of my father dressed in his uniform and OMG he really was just a boy in that uniform. We tend to think of them as men, but that's NOT what I saw in this picture. No, this was really just a young kid.

Back then no one talked about how the war affected them. These young boys that came back home as men were expected to JUST move on and get a job and be a functioning civilian again. They were expected to JUST MAN UP and my father tried to do just that. Yet, it was clear he was alone with all the things that young boy experienced and witnessed.

Yes, my older brother has a lot of anger, and I do know he has a right to his anger. My father's history most definitely created a person who genuinely did not have the ability to be a good parent to his son.

There are a lot of things about my parent's generation that created challenges. There were a lot of parents that drank too and it was something many in that generation engaged in. My father never really got over what he saw and experienced during the war. He went to serve before he got to finish his senior year of high school and that's what he had to complete when he came home from war and then he put himself through college. His father served in both WWI and WWII and his father was an alcoholic, and a mean drunk. So my father did not really have a very good example of what a healthy father is like.

There are a lot of things my generation did not have an understanding of. I never used the terms toxic, triggers or abuser or this person and that person is narcissistic like is so widely used now. Most in my generation just learned to work around different social challenges and personal family challenges. My parents pretty much taught us that it's ok to love someone who presents challenges. My mother was one who constantly said "you have to accept people for what they are". It's very different today than it was when I was younger. We certainly have more knowledge about what alcohol use does to someone's brain. It's actually been rather triggering for me to read and learn about it and remembering what I dealt with in my past that frightened and confused me.

I also have some anger myself. Mostly anger about what it does to people and how that has affected me very deeply as a person. I had a lawyer who had a problem and was at the point where he developed the shakes, lack of sleep, lack of being able to remember and he HAD been a top lawyer and very well known. His years of drinking was taking a toll and he should have retired but didn't. And he made a mess of my case and I literally could not find ANY lawyer for a very long time to help me. As soon as they heard his name they ALL declined. I would sit with my therapist trying to get help and at one point my therapist said that he had been wondering if I was dealing with an alcoholic. Yes, but it was more than that because he was mentally declining as well. People knew but chose to look the other way, after all, he was at one time highly regarded and no one wanted to see the reality. They just all distanced even his own son who also practiced law. What should have taken two years to settle ended up taking nine years. And that's only because I did finally find a lawyer that COULD see it and COULD look at my case which at that point was going to get thrown out because of how he was failing. He ended up having 11 suits against him for malpractice and finally he got caught driving drunk.

When I say ANYONE can have a problem, I AINT KIDDING.

It’s a good thing groups like Al anon and Al ateen exist.

I did try that when I was younger because I did need help. However, at that time when I went there was a lot of encouragement for me to end my marriage. Because my husband did stop and committed to going to meetings I did not want to leave him because I respected the fact that he was trying.

At that time it was VERY stigmatized and when people found out there was a challenge I was pretty much black listed. People can be VERY cruel. Things were a lot different 30 years ago.

I gave my husband an ultimatum and he went to an AA meeting that same night and has not had any alcohol since. He admitted he had a problem and since then has been involved in staying sober and helping others to do the same. If he did not stop and see he had a problem, I would have divorced him. But he did not do that.

It IS important to get help if you stop drinking otherwise a person can become a dry drunk where they still behave badly even without the alcohol. Dry drunks can exhibit horrific behaviors. I think that is part of my older sister's problems. My husband has said several times that he wondered if she was a closet drunk or a dry drunk due to how off the wall her behaviors got.

You were encouraged to end your marriage??? That’s seems really harsh on the other group participants! I never felt it was my business to tell another woman what to do with her marriage you know what I mean? I’m sure you can understand the alcoholism doesn’t mean it’s the end of everything right? I mean I know there are people that have to go there I think it’s admirable that you stayed with your husband as long as you did. And my husband see with me although I don’t know that I would be considered a horrible alcoholic in the sense of what other people have experienced, I feel like it’s traumatic for anybody who is not the alcoholic in the relationship.

YES!! People told me "you are still young, divorce him and save yourself". I was in my early thirties at the time and I agree about not telling someone to divorce their husband unless ofcourse there is physical abuse and the husband is dangerous in some way. It was different 30 years ago, there was a lot of stigma, a lot of social shaming. It was actually a very lonely time for me.

Keep in mind there was no internet or even cell phones back then. I think people tend to think in the now with all that is available now rather than what it was like back where there was none of what is so common today.

I have been married 40 years.

As an aside my own experiences with some AA groups have included shaming much to my dismay particularly when it came to medications for mental health and illness treatment. Also in particular a book used at a meeting I used to go to called “living sober “ addresses the fact that “we are not doctors “ and that medication management should be left up to a professional.
When I first got sober years ago I began by going to all noon meetings around me. They were mostly all men, many retired and some women. 85% of them or so were full of kindness and wisdom especially the older retiree grandfather types. Unfortunately the younger, perhaps more suffering ones were the ones who seemed to get on their soap boxes and rail against the evils of big pharma lumping crucial medications like antidepressants in with easily abused medications like opiates and benzos.

It’s not my business or job to tell anyone what they should take. I’ve never been one to completely write off a certain med or class of meds as big no-no’s. I’ve had 5 surgeries in 2.5 years. I’ve needed pain medicine while recovering. My doctors were all in on my history. I took my meds and all is well now. I would listen to some of these younger holier than thou people preach nonsense and I would even question my own treatment even though I’ve been stable now for 20 years. At the time in my early days maybe I had been stable for 12 years or so. Thankfully I had a good sponsor who knew that what I needed medically was a doctors job. My sobriety was a AA person’s “job” as far as advice goes. Anyhow I guess this is all just me rambling.

My husband was advised to try our local alanon. He’s very private and quiet and was already in therapy. He went once and came home and told me it wasn’t for him. He said the amount of what he perceived as self aggrandizing and self pity was detrimental to his own needs. That combined with overwhelming questions and bombardment after the meeting turned him off. He stuck to therapy. My daughter though really benefited from Alateen.

My sponsor also had a drug addict ex husband and daughter and even though she was in aa she said alanon was invaluable to her learning to deal with them. So it’s not always bad and works for many. I can’t figure out why I’ve seen various forms of shaming in recovery communities. Not tons of it but enough to make many people afraid of being truly open.

I don't see your input as rambling at all. I guess I am more like your husband as I did not care for the depression I experienced at the alanon meetings. I actually needed to be with others who chose to stay and support their husband who is committing to sobriety. I wanted a strong presence to mentor me, but I did not find that and that's because the divorce rate was so high. The couples who did stay tended to both have alcoholism issues and were both working on their sobriety and also attended alanon meetings.

Yes, my husband got a lot of help from older individuals that mentored him like you described. They were kind, good caring people. My husband was young too, many at that time his age did not want to admit they had a problem. Years later my husband would come home and say "you will never guess who I saw at a meeting", and often it was people that distanced and were not so nice way back when. It was a challenge when his mentors passed away. As you know, there ARE good people in the rooms that mentor others. My husband is now one of them.

They really work hard at trying to have meetings too despite how churches shut doors due to Covid.

Recovering from surgery is a challenge. People can develop addictions to pain medications. Doctors are more careful now about medicating with morphine. However, when having a very invasive surgery, morphine is the only thing that can help as the pain can be horrific. I was completely opened up due to my body being full of toxins from a leaking appendix. It was horrific waking up to what was done to me. I do wish they had told me they would be taking the morphine away. Nothing else works like morphine, that much I know first hand.

A lot depends on who is running the meeting. Some individuals are know it alls and try to change the format when the format, if followed really works well and is tried and true. They often ask my husband to chair meetings because he prefers to run them the way that his mentors did that helped him. Also, not everyone attends willingly either, sometimes they have to because they got in trouble and lost their license. Also, those that are more narcissistic often feel it's beneath them and don't care to open up and share. They are more apt to walk away deciding those in the rooms are a bunch of losers. It is this type that tends to be angry drunks too. These are the die hard deniers that tend to practice shaming.

I think that my childhood prepared me to expect certain things and learn how to go it alone at times and make the best of it. All those years of witnessing how badly my older brother was treated and shunned and also being shunned because I was his sister prepared me for how other people can be. What I learned is how that doesn't really change. Truth is people can be cruel. My brother's biggest problem other than his older sister hating him was that he had ADHD and could not sit still and pay attention normally. They did not know anything about that when we were children.

So, I was not a stranger for being shunned and loving or caring about and supporting someone anyway. My husband worked two jobs and went to meetings and working on staying sober. I created my own small business out of my little farm so I could he around for my daughter to help her with her learning disabilities. It was not easy for my daughter either as there were piers that shunned her for having "special needs". Ironically, my daughter's IQ was extremely high for her age.

I honestly was not sure about starting this thread. I don't want to disrespect those who struggle and take steps to get sober, I know that's a genuine challenge. Yet, at the same time this problem has affected me my entire life. Either way it's hard to talk about. And I have gotten used to doing it a lot on my own.

Another article about relationships and alcohol :

‘Malcolm & Marie’ and the role of addiction in relationships

This statement got me really thinking. Anger! to escape one's feelings?

I think it's important to explore WHAT personally leads a person to feel anger.

Usually it's about fear.

Did you ever sit and think about what makes you angry? What is it that you fear?

How alcoholics constantly blame others when things don't go THEIR WAY. Often they will insist the problem in the relationship is the other person and it's the other person who has to change. This tends to happen in other relationships as well, including working with others and blaming problems on others. I talked to someone about two weeks ago that was in a bad mood, thought they were mad at me or something. Turns out it was because their boss is an alcoholic and can be very hard to deal with for just this reason. I remember when my husband drank he was like that and my father as well. That type of behavior can trigger me. I also think that has contributed to how my sister behaves, not sure if she still drinks or is what is called a dry drunk.

Why Do Alcoholics Blame Others? | The Recovery Village Drug and Alcohol Rehab

Understanding that even though you want to help and please the alcoholic, you are not going to be heard.

How Do Alcoholics Manipulate Others

Came across this article and it does a good job explaining behaviors of someone who has developed alcohol abuse issues. It does a good job at describing how an alcoholic thinks.

Alcoholic Thinking - Understanding the Insanity of Alcoholism: How the Alcoholic Thinks

The other thing I read this morning is when it comes to an alcoholic, they don't actually "love" normally either. Instead it's the high they feel that is important to them. They protect that high just as they do with the high they get from the alcohol or other drugs.

There are so many behaviors that are so similar to that of a narcissist. And there are times where a person is both an alcoholic and a narcissist.