Grieving my marriahe

@RDMercer, your gut instincts are correct and I caution you to be very careful around this female colleague who is flattering you. She is coming onto you and is clearly interested in more than just friendship. Her hints are not even subtle - they are obvious come ons.

You are in a very vulnerable place, coming out of an unhealthy long-term marriage and with your codependency. You've been through a LOT, and need time to heal and be with your children. Your children are going to need support through the divorce process. They should be your primary focus, not a new woman. I am not saying or suggesting that's what you're thinking, because clearly your reaction is to come on here to write about it. I am just simply cautioning you to be very careful. I would decline her invitations.

I think looking into your codependency would help as well and getting support for it. The last thing you need is to get involved in another relationship where you find yourself once again, to be codependent. Learning about this condition and working on loosening its grip on you would really help you at this time. I encourage you to seek a professional's help or a support group around this.

I agree with what others have said. This is absolutely not the time to get your heart involved with another woman. Accept her friendship at work, but nothing more.

If there is the possibility of a romantic relationship in the future, you want to come to each other whole, not burdened down with going thru a divorce. You need time to grieve your marriage.

If you started a relationship now, the dynamics would just be wrong, and could be very hard to shift down the road. She may want to nurture and mother you during your time of need. And that may be very appealing. But once the grieving is over, you may be stuck in that dynamic. You want a relationship where you are both whole and the nurturing is equal.

And you've potentially thrown away what could be a fantastic relationship in the future for a short term relationship of seeing you through your divorce.

Wow RD, I panicked a little reading about the woman at work, but it sounds like you realize your own proclivity towards needing to be needed. You're doing the right thing to keep her at an arm's length, but it's also okay to take the moment to absorb that you are still a visible, valid human being.

That thing I said about salt and pepper shakers earlier, and then about being an individual... As a codependent myself, my thought process has been that if you can't find contentment alone, you won't find it in a relationship. It sounds like you may already have come to that conclusion yourself.

Have you read any literature like Codependent No More? If you haven't, it's a good read for sorting out the mind. There's a free download somewhere online of the steps workbook that goes with that book. I found it very helpful to "work the steps". It can give a lot of insight about motives and habits.

Stay strong!

Trying!

Got-Dang it can be hard to be responsible and mature!

But I know I need to settle my mind before I act on anything.

Nice to feel like someone noticed me though.

Hang in there! One year + into my codependency work, I'm at a point that even if I was out of my relationship, I would not allow myself to get into another relationship. I need to learn more about me, what I really want, what I really need, rather than focus attention on another person. Make sure you know who you are before jumping into anything.

And it's okay to just go out and have fun if that opportunity comes up for you. I'd surely avoid that with any people from work though . And of course the real danger is if you run the risk of getting too deeply attached too soon.

The other night I was lying on the couch watching a movie and I backed myself as far as I could into the couch and wrapped my arms around myself in a hug. I miss that secure feeling of being held and loved. I get it. I can think of nothing I want more than to be part of a pair, which is why I know I'd screw it up at this point.

But hey, enjoy the feeling of having someone notice you, I know what you mean there to. I think my unhealthy marriage has squeezed me dry. I'm a 50 year old woman with my natural, original hair color, whose got the same build as when she was a teenager, but my dragging life shows on my face. Not much of anybody noticing me anymore. A few months ago at the grocery store, a young guy in his twenties came hop skipping by me in the produce section- you know that thing guys do when there's an attractive woman around? I think when he got around me and realized that I was old enough to be his mom, it ruined his day. Fortunately, he was young enough that the look on his face was funny and not hurtful.

Lots of fish out there. Go swim free for a little while. Find out what kind of fish you really are.

You need a person that is capable of providing you with a comforting presence. Unfortunately, a lot of people don’t know how to be a comforting presence for others and instead respond by sharing their problems.

You have been lonely for years now always thinking things could improve. You need a kind presence that can comfort you as you face important realities that are hard to face.

Being a responsible adult doesn’t mean you can’t have emotional needs. When a person is in an unhealthy relationship they end up sacrificing their own emotional needs for their partner. An unhealthy partner tends to have the relationship revolve around their needs.

From what you are sharing of your wife’s behaviors towards you and your children, she is demanding all of you to enable her and become codependents.

When you described the time you had with your sons while your wife was away, you comforted each other the way most guys comfort. A little tackling, joking, hanging lights you had healthy fun together.

Then what happened?

Think about it RD. Things turned unhealthy and the three of you were suddenly expected to be lonely codependents. Your wife doesnt have the self awareness to see how her behaviors are affecting her family. No, she has come off of unhealthy advice telling her she is THE victim. She is freshly mirroring these influences towards you from women who don’t know you. Sounds like there might be a narcissist in that group project her issues instead of helping your wife see HER own part of the problem. Part of that is using alcohol and Xanex to numb herself. Not healthy, not good and she functions and doesn’t act drunk so you think there is no problem. You have much to learn, and you need to have comfort as you begin to recognize the reality.

Wow. You're insightful.

Why yes, there is a narcissist in her new group of friends. One who has a burned up and burned out, used up, trail of people behind her.

RDMercer

My concern for you is how you are too willing to accept blame for what is unhealthy. This is part of codependent behavior and enabling and too easy to manipulate.

Your good hearted at your core and this makes you vulnerable. You have a tendency to think others have your values when they don’t. That is what contributes to the “crazy” you experience. This is why your sons want to live with you and not their mother. They are safe to be themselves with you. Yet when your wife is around you give in and become her codependent enabler.

They want to be with me, not her, because they can be themselves. But when she's around, I cave in and become her codependent enabler.

Wow. That is completely true.

I'll think on that.

Today was a bad day. My wife has been really, really hurtful with things said to our oldest. I'm floored hearing from him and his siblings about things Mom has said to him over the years. She really singled him out.

She also told them very sexist things when I wasn't around.... If you're in a bad relationship count on it that it's your fault, because 99% of the time it's the man.... Try to grow up. Men are mostly just toddlers.... It's always the man's job to pursue the woman and make her feel wanted..... Women don't date men, it's your job to date women.

Nice things for teen boys to be told.

This stuff was around a little bit before, but she's turned the volume all the way up on this topic since surrounding herself with single friends.... Toxic single friends who openly say things like, You don't need a husband, you can always find men to do things for you. They'll do it just for the HOPE of something in return. You can always find them.

TRIGGER WARNING.... BIG TOPIC BELOW...

I've carried a fair load for a long time. Lots of people do. Lots of people carry bigger loads than me.

But for all those years, there was nothing I could plan for or look forward to. Not a trip, not ... not.... Not anything. Even a meal, I'd have to go by myself, or make and eat it by myself because she wouldn't go to the restaurants I wanted to go to. Like... There was nothing. If there WAS something, an outdoor Christmas event say, she wouldn't go, or would cancel last minute. This resulted in The Choice... take the kids or stay home with mom. Either had consequences.

I reached a point where, caring for kids, spouse, zero positivity, worrying about house/money/cars, and looking after elderly family, I just didn't want to be anymore.

I wasn't thinking of hurting myself, but I did think... If I could make it 6 more years and go from natural causes that would be good. My youngest would be out of school at that point, and my life insurance would look after everyone. My insurance is worth more than I'll be able to give them anyway.

My sole role was caregiver and provider. I just wanted to see that to the end and be done.

When my wife got work, I thought... Ok, we have a way forward, maybe we CAN do something for enjoyment... Maybe I can be hopeful.... Two months later and she announced divorce.

Now some days it feels worse. Just slog through with even less income, and do it without the hope of having a partner. I love my kids so much. And even though the fighting was so bad, I deeply cherished the good moments with my wife. Without her I am 100% only a caregiver and provider.

I'm so exhausted in every way, and I feel increasingly invisible. I feel stretched so thin in every direction that you can see through me.

Yes, I'm on meds for depression. It's far worse without them.

She doesn’t like the oldest because he stands up to her and speaks up.

You are never going to get a loving relationship from this woman. It’s not your failure either.

I am so hopeful for your future. I have seen your posts in the past and worried for you. Now it's like light is filtering through and you are starting to see a clear picture. Keep moving forward!

Well.... You guys won't believe this.

The attractive lady I spoke about... We hooked up last night.



Kidding!


She phoned yesterday and I was at the end of my rope. She said, OK RD, we are past being colleagues. I'm your friend. Fill me in.

And I dumped everything out. She said, "You are being WAY too understanding and generous. I've been through a separation, and I represented my father in court through four divorces. Your wife is about to get a wake up call. I rebuilt myself after my separation and I own multiple properties now. If your wife tries to string you along and not settle, I'll show you how to turn your current home into a rental property. You pull every bit of documentation you can get on all your wife's education and what you have done to support her. Let's be clear; she CHOSE to leave a life of comfort. There is no history of abuse, addiction, financial irresponsibility, NOTHING, so you DON'T get to support her lavish dreams for the rest of your life. The fact that she left the marital home and you are the sole parent speaks volumes. I will support you completely in preparing everything for your lawyer for court and I will show you how to protect yourself financially and look after your kids." She said, "RD, I always knew you were a person of strong character but you're better than I knew. I've got your back until this is behind you."

Last night I got asked to attend a 6:30AM meeting with a long time friend.

He said:
I understand serious mental illness because my parents spilt under the same circumstances. I know what goes on in your house because our kids are friends since years. I'm ready to support you by cosigning for a new home, and making a down payment on a home for you until you can get out and sell your own house. He also said, I need you to have your head clear, because I have a business proposition for you. You've shared ideas and plans with me for the last 10 years, and I've made money off of everything you ever advised me on. I want to bring you into my business as a partner with you running it as I move into semi-retirement. But we aren't moving on this until you're out of that house and your head is clear. I also want to grow and expand the business, with the goal of us all cashing out in under 10 years. I'm ready to bring you in as a junior partner and we'll figure out a salary for a side income for you to start. There's a woman you introduced me to through your work that I've already met with twice. You'll be working with her as she will be the third partner.

Guess who that is.

This all came at the last second.... I am about to lose a home that I was trying to pull the financing together for that closes tomorrow. I will most likely lose that home. In the meantime, we are OK, and holy moley what a team that suddenly rallied around me.

I'm a late forties farm boy tradesman. I'm crying while I type this.

There is nothing wrong with your history of growing up on a farm. There is nothing wrong with being a person that earns a living from a trade either. Trade skills always have value. You are too quick to devalue yourself.

It’s ok to shed some tears and be human.

It has been my experience that perhaps the most significant challenge we face as victims of narcissistic abuse is the very confusing belief that we are responsible for all of the dysfunction that existed or still exists in the connection. It is utterly essential, in order for the narcissist to benefit from the relational transaction in the way that they need to, that we believe that we are to blame for everything difficult in the relationship, and often in their lives—and it is us alone who must fix it. This misplaced sense of accountability would not work on just anyone. It worked on us, for all kinds of different reasons, one of them being that victims of narcissistic abuse tend to be responsible people readily inclined to own their role in things. And, of course, that sense of responsibility is blatantly WRONG in that context. You are not to blame for any of it, even if you currently believe that your issues attracted you to them, or that your issues contributed to your remaining connected to them.

Because that which exists in the narcissist, existed before you, and no doubt will exist beyond you. However it happened to them, however these patterns of abuse became their way of being, was a function of their own experiences, and took root independent of your presence. It is not now, and it was not ever, about you. I appreciate that you may not be ready to know that yet, but I want to say this right now, as the lighthouse of understanding that you are walking towards. You may have wanted to believe that it was about you, perhaps because it gave you a sense of control—the idea that if it’s your fault, then you can actually make it better. But it was NEVER ABOUT YOU. The gaslighting was not about you. The triangulation was not about you. The blaming was not about you. The playing the victim was not about you. The diminishment was not about you. The lack of empathy was never about you. The manipulation, the sense of entitlement, the ego-feeding, were never about you. They were directed AT you, but they were never about you. All of it was about them and their fragile, underdeveloped egoic structure. And there was NOT A THING you could do to change any of it.

In fact, it was strategically designed as an intrinsically unchangeable parasitic structure, one that is not seeking transformation, but is merely to be fed and maintained precisely as it is. Your job, whether you knew it or didn’t know it, was to give it what it needed to maintain its current form. Devoid of the capacity for self-reflection or empathic interface, it has no fuel, no impetus to grow. And none of this is, or ever could be, your fault. They arrived in your life that way. They may have wanted you to believe it was your fault, so you would keep elevating and nourishing them. But none of that was true. None of it.

(~an excerpt from my affordable 'Narcissistic Abuse Healing Course', available for download at The Narcissistic Abuse Healing Course - Jeff Brown)

When I came across the above it reminded me of you RD, always too willing to believe the dysfunction is your fault. You have been a responsible person working hard and trying to do what you can for your family. Now you sat with two individuals that have told you that you ARE a good responsible man.

Part of your problem has been that by believing the problem is you there is a sense of control that your changing things can fix it.

You cannot fix your wife’s alcoholism and most likely xanex abuse. What I learned is that individuals that develop alcoholism have other problems that can be NPD, BPD, Bipolar, ptsd, depression and other challenges. The addiction IS a problem that itself is very narcissistic where the individual lives their life in the toxic loop of the addiction. Like a narcissist one never knows what mood they will be in as they can go from being happy and nice to being cold and angry to being the seemingly helpless victim.

You could never fix this and it could actually get worse.

First, that book excerpt is wonderful.

Second, I've been blessed this month with the people who have reached out to me.

Third, the blessings continued this evening. A friend of mine used to practice family law. I've never talked business with him. I met he and his wife tonight and spilled my story. He said, do you realize if you buy another property she has you? In the absence of a marital separation agreement she can claim your house was 80/20, and you'll pay up just to get out of two mortgages. No. She moved out. You're the parent in the marital home. Without a MUTUAL agreement she's entitled to nothing. Not your pension. Not equity on the home, not support, nothing. Shut off her cards. Redirect your pay to a new account. She just signed a lease. Now she gets to pay it on her own. Three year wait and 10k for family court, and all you have to do is Not agree to any separation agreement. Force her hand and starve her out. She chose to leave a life of comfort at all your expense. No. Let it cost her.

Well many of us told you that buying property while married (not even separated) is not something people should ever do because it will cost them. Why are you surprised now? I really could never understand why you are buying houses. You can’t do that now.

Creating a new account and putting your paychecks there is wise, you could have separate bank accounts.

Generally speaking I don’t really understand what is going on and what is it that you are doing. Before making any other decisions I think you should go for separation agreement (if your state requires separation) or/and divorce.

Well yeah if she rented her own place, she should pay for it herself. I sure hope you aren’t paying for it. But I am not sure starving her out, metaphorically speaking, is a good plan, what’s the end goal, to get her to come back or just make her suffer? Not sure I understand

Have you talked to a lawyer? Not a friend but lawyer retained by you who’d help you to do things right and legally sound? I’d start with seeing a lawyer ASAP. Talking to friends and people on the internet could be a good support, but it’s not a substitute for seeing a lawyer

I tried to tell you not to make any financial investments until you get legal advice. I am glad you finally got a chance to talk to a lawyer. Different states can have different laws and it sounds like this lawyer can be very helpful in guiding you so you don’t end up suffering even more.

Wow this speaks to me, even though it's not for me . Thank you for this.

Did I talk to a lawyer?

Yes, one on retainer that had our whole story and told me buying the 2nd home was a non issue.

Then my lawyer friend volunteered that info over coffee.

Today I fired my lawyer.

Maybe my friend was wrong. He has 35 years experience (about 10 in family law), but he spoke strongly from a perspective of fighting for me. My lawyer wasn't of that mindset. Find the middle ground, accept you're going to pay a lot for a long time, keep it out of family court. Pay her and let her go away.

My buddy was like...... NO NO NO....YOU are the responsible adult in your home. Anything paid to her lessens the chances of a college education for your kids! No! She's mentally ill and possibly an addict, who's threatened you and your oldest with "girl power" crap. Great. Go be powerful. Let her come up with the money for all this on her own. Cut. Her. Off. Cancel her visa, take her off your car insurance, everything. NOTHING you do in financial negotiations will bring her back or open the door to reconciliation if that's on your mind. So, from a mental illness or addiction stand point she has to crash before she'll get help, and if you want to reconcile, show her she needs you. Never negotiate from a place of weakness. You're in the family home caring for the kids, while shes blowing money. Cut. Her. Off. All you have to do is nothing. Take your house off the market. She either burned through a stockpile of money or credit for that new apartment and furniture. She's acting as if the house is sold and support payments are coming. Go home. Take down the realtor sign and email them you aren't selling. Get your kids through the school year. In six months her finances are going to change. If she has to work more to live, great. Then you have proof she can work full time. And you document every hour and every ounce of material you put in that house since she left. Anything that retains or enhances the value through your dime and your work is negotiable in the settlement, and that could take years.

Kids had a snow day and big kid got sent home from work due to weather.

I got home at 530 and he's setting up an apartment in our basement.

They took down their mom's photos and her paintings. They had packed her stuff and unpacked their own.

I felt sick. I asked, What are you guys doing? Reply: if She gets to have her place away from us, we get to have ours away from her.


RDM

I really admire the spirit that is showing in this last post!

If she’s as sick as you said like she is such is in unbearable pain and unable to work for years she might get spousal support. But maybe not. And maybe she’s not as sick as she claimed. Judge would decide, if she asks for it.

It’s not that simple. My husband had to pay alimony for 8 years and his ex had no illnesses, well she was diagnosed BPD but no records of being unable to work. Judge said well she isn’t working. Doesn’t matter if she CAN work. And their kids were long grown and out of the house. She didn’t get as much support as she demanded but she got some.

Lawyers say one thing. Judge decides something else. Your friend might be right but usually these fights and trying to force one’s ex to this or that don’t end well. Judges don’t look favorably at that.

The lawyer you fired seems to have a realistic vision of what’s happening. They know how judges look at that

Good luck with whatever happens

I think your family lawyer friend is giving you good advice. If your wife is moving out to an apartment, that’s fine and is her choice. You just keep the home as you have been paying for it.

I don’t recommend taking a punish her mindset, that isn’t your style and will only serve to
Give her fuel to play the victim. Just plan on letting her go do her thing but do so wisely. You don’t want to act on emotions.

You need to realize you were in love with the fantasy and all you did was prolong your suffering and spiraled into depression and a very unhealthy mindset. There was never anything you could do to fix her. She wants out and to be independent, let her go do that for herself. You don’t have to be vindictive, yet you do deserve to protect your own interests.

Taking the vindictive path can end up with total loss and the lawyers getting whatever you have gained financially.

I don't see many things in black and white. I do see a lot of grey.

My hired lawyer.... I chose him originally because he's known to be a very kind and peaceful person. But his entire message was one of, be prepared to pay a lot for a long time, but that's ok because you'll have peace. You want to not go to court because that gets messy. Maybe she was abusive and possibly an alcoholic, but you don't need to dump your dirty laundry.

My friend, being my friend, jumped in to defend me. Somewhere above someone mentioned not punishing her. My hired lawyer also said my friends comments were punitive.

Were they?

Everything he said amounted to, let her be independent, totally financially independent. Your priority is the kids, now and long term. Don't be bullied, don't be rushed, don't be put out of your home. It's your kids home. He was forceful in saying it. But that isn't punitive. There's nothing there that is punishing her.

Maybe it reads different than it sounds in my head.

He was defending me, not punishing her. Letting her worry how to pay her credit card or fix her car, or figure out how to support her kids while working fulltime isn't punishing her. That's life. That's all what I did for her before.

I begged her up until 3 days ago to talk about finances, support, how much she really needed, etc. She refused aggressively, repeatedly.

Today my phone is blowing up, because I took the house off the market, and she's panicking about the money she assumed she was going to have.

As it is, I'm financially tapped out. I can't pay my lawyer anymore anyway. I had borrowed the money for the deposit on the house we were trying to buy.

Lawyers and court costs a lot of money. So, I guess we'll get there at some point.

Goodnight

Glad to learn you are not interested in anything punitive. There are times we can get advice from someone that has that tone. That would be about their character not yours.

It is important you move forward within your means financially. It’s also good to know your rights.

You and your sons deserve to live in a home environment you all feel safe in. When there is a presence in the home that has addiction problems the change in their behaviors can genuinely pollute the environment making it emotionally unsafe and confusing.