[Edwyn]

I grew up a Christian, and I find that I am very disturbed by the things that I learned in the Bible. I am quite anxious and paranoid about "committing sins" and provoking "God's punishment." The whole Biblical idea that God is not going to love or forgive non-Christians after they die is extremely distressing to my emotions.

I trace a lot of my emotional problems to the kind of doctrines that the Bible presents. Do any of you feel the same way?

[SeptemberMorn]

I think it was the way in which those ideas were presented to you that is the problem. I'm a Christian and I have no problems with any of it.

I might add, though, that I don't go to church anymore. The reason is because there seems to be so much hypocricy within the members.

OOOPS! BTW, we're not allowed to discuss religion since it's such a controversial topic; just like politics.

[seeker1950]

I find it hard to believe in Heaven or Hell...(Maybe this will be moved to the Spiritual Forum). I see nothing wrong with discussing it.

[Rhapsody]

<font color="purple"> ((((((( HUGS ))))))) ~ ~ ~ ~ ((((((( HUGS ))))))) </font>

[Gemstone]

Hi Edwyn,

Although I was not brought up as a Christian (I was brought up Jewish), I do have a lot of problems with how religion was presented to me. I would say, yes, I do have a lot of emotional problems because of it.

Welcome to pc btw.

[Rapunzel]

I would have to agree with those who feel it isn't the theology that says that God won't forgive, but the way that it has been presented by some churches and some individuals. It saddens me that there are some who believe that way, but I guess there are. When your spirit, (or maybe it is the Holy Ghost) tells you through your emotions that something you have been taught is not correct, are you able to consider that it might be specific to that principle, and not the whole of Christianity?

I am Christian too, and I believe in a loving Heavenly Father who wants His children to return to Him. I believe that while none of us are perfect, and we all make mistakes and are in need of forgiveness through the atonement, the opportunity to be forgiven and to accept the atonement is open to all and will be open to all until they have had the opportunity to understand what is offered. Some don't get that opportunity during this life because they have not been taught. That is not because of any wrongdoing on their part, and they will be taught even after death. Nobody will be turned away except for the few who turn away themselves and reject the gospel, with knowlege of what they are rejecting. I feel that I was fortunate to be taught in a religion, and a church, that has this belief. It would just not make sense to me that God would turn his children away and punish them for not having found something that wasn't available to them.

As for being anxious about God's punishment for your sins, of course you should try to do the best that you can, but He knows that we aren't perfect in this life:
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Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isaiah 1:8

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This verse has long been a comfort to me, and one of my favorites.

[Direction]

I'm sorry this is causing so much pain and confusion for you.

I really didn't start learning about any religion until I was 12 or so...but never really grasped it and didn't get anything out of it. When I was 29 I joined a church who embraces what Rapunzel described.

You, also, seemed concerned about sins...I have been taught that if we ask for forgiveness through repentance we are forgiven.

Definition of repentance for me...more than just acknowledging wrongdoings. It is a change of mind and heart that gives us a fresh view about God, about ourselves, and about the world. It includes turning away from sin and turning to God for forgiveness. It is motivated by love for God and the sincere desire to obey His commandments.

I guess for me having been lost for basically 29 years...I feel real comforted by this...we are all on varies ways to figuring it out.

[SeptemberMorn]

Edwin, I was taught basically how you were. I grew up being afraid of God, being afraid that He saw everything I did and was judging me. Not sure whether my mom really believed that or if it was her way of controlling me when SHE wasn't watching.

Much later in life, something inside me told me that what I had been taught wasn't quite right. I went to a Bible study class and found out that God had been misrepresented to me. One of the first Bible verses that my mom taught me was "God is Love." So, if God is love, why was He to be feared? I saw Jesus as an aloof person that walked among the crowds with his nose in the air. He called his mother "woman." To me, that was highly disrespectful. In Bible study I found out that my perceptions were all wrong. God IS all about LOVE.

1. He created us in His own image.
2. After humanity went astray (Adam and Eve) He became flesh and dwelt among us. Went through what every human goes through.
3. He was scorned, beaten, abused, crucified, shed his blood which was necessary for our atonement then
4. He died.
5. He conquered Hell
6. He conquered the grave and rose again
7. He ascended into Heaven and said He was going to prepare a place for all those who loved Him.

He did all of this so we, His creation, wouldn't have to. If that isn't love, then I don't know what is.

If we accept his sacrifice for us He is quick to forgive. He understands the temptations we go through. He went through them, too. He knows how it feels to be friendless; his disciples abandoned Him in His our of need. He knows how it feels to be poor and hungry. He knows how it feels when we think God has abandoned us. Why would He go through all of this if He didn't love us?

I don't know what happens in the after-life, between the time our bodies die and when He comes back for the believers, but because I accept Jesus Christ, his love and his sacrifice, I know that if a thief hanging on a cross next to Jesus was told that he'd be in Paradise with Him that day, then I know that I will be, too, when I shed this mortal body.

An afterthought; we as humans tend to see God in the same light that we see our parents. If they were/are stoic, we see God as stoic. If they were/are angry, we see God as an angry God. If they were/are abusive, we see God as abusive. He is NONE of these things. He is perfect, unconditional love!

That doesn't mean that He just pats us on the head when we go against His wishes and says "That's okay, kid. I'll pretend it didn't happen." No, He wants us to admit that we know we did wrong, that we didn't resist temptation as we well could have and ask His forgiveness with a heart felt effort to not make that same mistake again. But even if we do, He understands. He may put us through the same challenge again and again until we learn our lesson, but He forgives!

God loves you, Edwin. No need to be afraid of Him.

[(JD)]

<font color="blue">

Christian theology. Hmmm.

The entire Bible is about Christ. Old Testament, New Testament. It is so that mankind can see their need for Christ, to be looking for Him. Throughout the OT they looked forward for the Messiah. Everything there points to God's salavation. In the NT it's about Christ's redeeming work on the cross, and then for those who believe (as in the OT) points us to look for Christ to come (again.)

It's a book about God's love. Yes, it can be seen as devisive. The book is about God, not about being "politically correct" or "pluralistic." It is about the need for salvation, the provision by God, and the great joy of being in His presence for eternity.

God's love shows through because it isn't a secret. HE has given us this textbook to follow, to read, to understand.. it's a road map to HIM. Don't feel insulted or hated because of what you read there, but feel God's love in that He has provided this way for you to know HIM. TO KNOW GOD! WOW! You don't have to accept what God says. But please don't hate the messengers of His message. If you had a neighbor that knew something was about to happen, even though to you it might sound bizarre, wouldn't you at least want him to tell you? Of course you would! You would want to make your own decision. How could you decide if the neighbor kept it a secret?

We are in the end times, I firmly believe that.

Sometime most recent has assured me of this, beyond what began to develop once Israel became a nation again. In the end times the country now known as Russia would become allies with the country we now know as Iran, and they would work together to eradicate Israel from the earth. If you are a history buff, well, you know some of the background on that.
What I have realized recently is that Iran has hired Russian workers for their nuclear program. How obvious this is to the world. First, Iran "knows" the USA won't attack because of the relationship now with Russia and not wanting to begin a war with them again. Second, this is end time prophecy.

I know many ppl will say oh, the Christians have been looking for Christ's return since he left the apostles. Yes, that's true, but they didn't have the prophetic answers, the results, like we do today. I mean, for 1948 years they supposed the reestablishing of the nation of Israel was a symbol of the Christian church, because there was no way for them, a small, scattered people, to become a nation again. Well, in 1948 Israel did become a nation again. And then they also took control of Jerusalem (another phophecy.)

No, it isn't disturbing to me, because I have studied and understand much of it. It's a great love story, that I accept by faith. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.

> I am moving this thread to the Spirituality forum so that the original poster's question can be discussed there according to the guidelines.

There seem to be two sets of guidelines...
On the spirituality forum one is only allowed to post in support of religious faith (as sky and septembermorn keep reminding me) whereas on the rest of the boards discussion of religious faith is supposed to be 'limited'. seems that some people feel that 'limited' is synonymous to 'eliminated' but those are two quite distinct things in my book. is it that there is a place on these forums for people to post in support of spirituality whereas there is no place for people to post in support of the absence of spirituality? given the way this thread has been dealt with that surely seems to be the case. how can we support the initial poster in their non-belief on the spirituality forum where non-belief is not allowed??? what takes priority on these forums - support of posters or support of god?

> Let me know if you are missing one of your posts and need it sent back so that you can re-post it.

yeah i would like my post sent back please so that i can repost it. trouble is... my post isn't likely to be acceptable to the spirituality forum now, is it.

[Direction]

The original post

"I grew up a Christian, and I find that I am very disturbed by the things that I learned in the Bible. I am quite anxious and paranoid about "committing sins" and provoking "God's punishment." The whole Biblical idea that God is not going to love or forgive non-Christians after they die is extremely distressing to my emotions.

I trace a lot of my emotional problems to the kind of doctrines that the Bible presents. Do any of you feel the same way? "

Alexandra...How does your post contribute to answering the question posted? He wants to talk about his Christian upbring and how others may feel the same way...Why don't you tell us or at the least let the poster know that you don't beleive in "blank" or "blank" and that "blank". "how can we support the initial poster in their non-belief on the spirituality" I don't see mention of non-belief...I see questions and distress in the original post? It's supporting the poster that everyone is trying to tell you not that you can only support a particular belief...

Edwyn...did any of the posts here help or make it feel that much worse?

[(JD)]

Direction, while I know what you mean, that those who do not accept Christ will not be forgiven... but we don't know the mind of God. Maybe there is that parallel universe, away from God that He gives ppl a second chance? I wouldn't want to tempt God that way, but things haven't stayed the same result already. By that I mean, before Christ died and rose again, believers went to Paradise, unbelievers went to hell. After His resurrection, he took the believers with Him to heaven from Paradise. After the White Throne Judgment, unbelievers will be taken from hell and cast into the lake of fire with satan, death and hell.

BTW I think there is hope for unbelievers even after the "rapture." It won't be easy, but if someone is left behind (an unbeliever) who wishes to believe, they can't take the mark of the beast (666) which will be required for anyone to buy food, stuff or sell anything, or trade for anything. BUT that means there WILL be some who won't take that mark, and will be saved from hell, imo. I'm sure that anyone who never heard of Christ and His salvation WILL have a chance during the tribulation, to come to Him. The Bible is more about NOT rejecting Christ once someone's heard.

AND there are verses in the NT about the spouse, or family of a believer, also being saved from hell. While I know the connotations of that, I really can't discern (yet) if that's because of the marriage making the two as one, and if one is a believer, see...????

We do not know the mind of God. He is a just God, He is a fair God. Because of His purity, he cannot allow sinful people in His presence. I get that.

My mom was resistant to accepting Christ. Her first inclination was, if she accepts that, then HER MOM went to hell??? As if her own rejection would change her mom's destination? Or, her own rejection would allow her to deny all of the faith of God? Her mom was Catholic. I explained that "just because" of that doesn't mean she won't be in heaven. (Catholicism was quite a bit different back then.) How does denial suit any of us? She did accept Christ, btw. (On her own, in her own time.) I would hope that no one puts any excuses in front of them to block truly realizing the power of God, and His Son's precious payment for our misgivings.

TC

[Direction]

Sky the original post was restated by me only to bring us back to Edwyns original post at it appeared it might go into the politics of the board itself and not provide support to the Edwyn...

So Edwyn...just insert your name where it says Direction...

[(JD)]

[bebop]

I am a firm believer myself. it is ok in this forum to express belief or non belief. but this particular thread is not up for debate either.

sky thanks for your wisdom!

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I grew up a Christian, and I find that I am very disturbed by the things that I learned in the Bible. I am quite anxious and paranoid about "committing sins" and provoking "God's punishment." The whole Biblical idea that God is not going to love or forgive non-Christians after they die is extremely distressing to my emotions.

I trace a lot of my emotional problems to the kind of doctrines that the Bible presents. Do any of you feel the same way?



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I very rarely come into this forum as it triggers me terribly.

I however, felt compelled to reply to you......

I feel very much the same as you. I was brought up Catholic-- not strict-- but Catholic nonetheless, I think the Holy Book of each religion...is quite the opposite of the way a loving God would present themselves as. I have much to say on this subject but fear this is NOT the place in which my view would be tolerated..... so if you'd like to further discuss, you can PM me....

Religions are much about worshipping a "human" and putting certain ones above others, which I feel is not appropriate and also "control" beyond what's necessary.

I don't wish to offend anyone, and hope I've not done so.

respect to all....

mandy

[Direction]

Mandy it is your opinion and/or belief - yours to have...you answered Edwyn's questions within those beliefs...that is very much the point of what this forum is for...you didn't slam any one for their beliefs...and offered to take the subject to PM as you are sensitive to others...and I'm guessing a little like me afraid to share a whole lot in threads...

I applaud you...

[tranquility]

Hi Edwyn,

I too grew up in fear of religion and everything that goes with it. You were to fear God, fear the nuns, fear the priests, etc., etc.

I think part of one of Sky's posts was that if you do not accept Christ then you are never forgiven. Sky I mean no disrespect - only my opinion Thankfully, I don't believe any of that!

Every religion thinks they have the right answer - so that would mean that either there are several different versions of heaven, or we all go there regardless of what religion tells us.

I believe that if we lead a good life and do the best that we can, we will all go to a better place. The only person that will judge us is ourselves.

Having this belief helps me not be hung up over these types of issues. I don't believe in a "God", I believe in an energy source that is the culmination of all the good vibrations here. I don't want to live my life in fear of something unknown. I have enough of my own other issues to add another one to the pot

Strictly my opinions - I think all of you are great people and I'll see you on the other side some day.

Tranquility

[seeker1950]

Tranquility....Great post!
I have evolved from being immersed in Protestant Christianity growing up to eventually finding my own way toward inner peace. This includes the acknowledgment of a higher power. If one finds oneself caught up in stringent beliefs, it becomes repressive. Stating "factual" opinions of what one can expect in the hereafter is hard for me to understand.
Patty

[Edwyn]

It seems to me that if there is a God, he is unlike that person who is described in the Bible. If there is a God, he does not curse non-believers as the Bible says he does. If there is a God, he forgives without receiving a "propitiating" human sacrifice on the cross. If there is a God, even his punishment is an act of love. If there is a God, he does not wish you to believe the Bible or believe in "Jesus." It just seems to me that the Bible is a very long and very complicated slander upon the wisdom and virtue of God. It presents a demonic picture of God and then demands that you worship it:

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Psalm 2:12 (New International Version)
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment.

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Perhaps I just read too much of the Bible and discovered how horrible and unforgiving it presents God? I dunno, but the Bible's teaching about God's hell just drove me a little batty. I applaud those who believe in a form of Christianity different from that taught in the Bible, but I don't know why you wouldn't take one step further and reject all aspects of the religion? The Bible actually teaches the things that all of us on this thread agree are unacceptable and crazy-making.

[(JD)]

Ok, I can accept that you believe what you believe. Why then are you discussing CHRISTIAN theology, why not discuss your own theology instead??

If you are truly interested, we can continue. I'm fine with this. I wouldn't use the NIV, to begin with, if you are doing deep searching. The best way to study is to compare Scripture with Scripture, not taking any one verse which might be out of context then (for study.)

The fool has said in his heart there is no God.
The righteous man receives not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned.

First, I would say, if you wish to work on understanding this (though not necessarily believing it, but understanding) I think one has to begin with "Who is Christ?"

Mind you that I am replying to the idea of some here that Christian theology is disturbing. I am a true Christian and wouldn't wish anyone to think the things you all are thinking and saying of the Most Holy God.

[Edwyn]

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_Sky said:
Ok, I can accept that you believe what you believe. Why then are you discussing CHRISTIAN theology, why not discuss your own theology instead?? If you are truly interested, we can continue.

The fool has said in his heart there is no God.
The righteous man receives not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned.

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I came here to discover if other people had felt troubled by the Biblical ideas of "God's wrath," "hell for non-believers," and "blood atonement." I was also troubled by the way the Bible characterizes non-believers as "fools." As far as I know, I don't have to be open to Christian evangelization in order to post my feelings on this forum.

[(JD)]

This is a support forum, not a bash the Christian theology forum.

[Edwyn]

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_Sky said:


This is a support forum, not a bash the Christian theology forum.

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And what of those people who have been emotionally injured by the teaching of a God who takes vengeance on non-Christian people -- where do those people go to get support?

If this is a support forum, then why did you just quote the Bible to say that those who do not believe in God are "fools"? You say that this is not a "bash the Christian theology forum", but is it a "bash the atheist forum"?

[(JD)]

Guess this ends this thread

I quoted Scripture, as an explanation for those wondering why they can't understand what I'm saying. I didn't begin the debate. I can end it, for me, though.