God, Archtypes, and Jungian Psychology

well, there are many ways to know God...

yes, that's what I am trying to say, but dont seem to be getting very far....

jin

again... there are many ways to know God... i didnt say buddha was a god, or confucious, or any other you want to be confused about... God, Allah, Yahweh... the entity has no name...

it was Sky who brought up the idea of worshiping archetypes and that is why i posted in that regard.. i dont think any part of my posts even mentioned the word worship until someone else brought it up... i would like to know why some feel so threatened by alternative beliefs?

maybe it is the fear of God....and the repercussions it would bring to think of anything else.....I know people who were raised by nuns and the damage it did to them was unspeakable....scared to do amything in case the devil took their souls.....forgive me if I am being outspoken here, but that is no way to live imho......I mean, would gOD REALLY HAVE WANTED THAT?????

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nowheretorun said:
it was Sky who brought up the idea of worshiping archetypes and that is why i posted in that regard.. i dont think any part of my posts even mentioned the word worship until someone else brought it up... i would like to know why some feel so threatened by alternative beliefs?

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I don't see anything about worshiping archetypes anywhere so far, don't see what we were discussing as being about worship at all. I don't see anything anywhere that says anyone is feeling threatened.

The only reference I see to the Bible is mine, about there being lots of stories there. The Koran is similar to the Bible and Buddha and others taught through stories (archetypes) so I don't see the Bible being important in this discussion?

thanks for pointing that out Perna... this is the statement i am referring to, and you're right, she didnt say worship, she asked if we are to "be" archetypes of God.. to be like God is a form of worship imo...

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_Sky said:
Should we be archetypes of God, instead?

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again, i didnt suggest we be archetypes of God.. also, at the beginning of the original post i said the article didnt exactly fit my belief system, only came close to it..

once again, i post something not of others beliefs, and someone has to come along and hack it up... why?

no Jinny, i do not believe God does want that... it sounds more like the work of some other diety, but not Gods'

This thread seems to be rather iffy to me. It is fine to post about your beliefs, and to share how your beliefs enrich your life. Please steer it back in that direction, rather than any analyzing of who said what , or picking each other's words apart.

Thanks,
Rapunzel

No, it's not only Sky's belief. It's my belief, also, and it's any Christian's belief that has taken the time to study their Bible and has experienced God and his Love in their life.

Personally, I don't see where Sky is "pushing" anything. She merely stating her beliefs and in the proper forum.

What I see is non-Christians taking exception to Christian beliefs... and if you'll forgive me, without knowing much about Christianity.

As for support, how can anyone support those ideas that we don't believe in? All we can do is state our possition and why we stand on that possition.

As for "archtypes", I can certainly agree with Sky in that we should be "archtypes" of God. The apostle Paul encourages to be immitators of God; "be ye therefore immitators of God as beloved children."

I'm sorry, Wendy. You and I must have been typing at the same time. I didn't see your post when I began mine. If I'm out of line, feel free to edit my post.

Thank you for the opportunity to keep the thread alive Rapunzel.

Perna, as i said in the pm i sent you, i have respect and admiration for your knowledge, as well as your personality. I am thankful for your contributions to this thread. Sometimes i am lost in some of your writing, but, it's my fault, not yours. I hope I can ask for clarifications..

You had stated that in your opinion the topic is currently 'How one knows God' ... yes, we're on the same page.

are you describing the archetype as a vehicle to God? That is my view of it.

for me, it builds a curiosity of the archetypal family. it causes me to think that if i understood the archetypes better, through that understanding and knowledge, it would increase my understandings of mankind.. his desires, her desires, a childs desires, or an older person... it would help me munderstand people from all walks, all times...

i would have a vision of the conglomerate... and a sound to go along..... a wailing...

how many are in fear, pain, suffering? what do they call to for help?

to use this energy, this sound, this vision and reach for the collective sake towards God and to do so sincerely... is something like Jungs' theories...

i wish i could quote from the article but im afraid of losing this post by flipping pages...

the more i read the article, the more i find it does apply to me... i have felt disconnected and misunderstood for so many years, and now, its like a new light has turned on...

"the possessors of happy faith" were the groups i also was unable to connect with... it seemed they had it, hut, it didnt fit my skin... so, like 1oxbowgirl said, i wanted more, i needed more..

i had no context as a teen, no context until 30 or so years old... lost in a confusing and contradictory world..

so i searched spiritually, keeping my mind open... took me down some screwy paths...

but i kept coming back and seeking the right fit.. one that still fell within the mandala of sprituality, but not one of the ones from the usual choices....

to find God... in all things, as Sky and you Perna said, God just IS ...

and not a book, not a character, not an archetype...

one of the greatest things i think you said in this thread Perna is:

"I think the archtype and Jung's collective unconscious is the best approximation of sharing/knowing another's experience."

right, with stories... and there are many, many books....

in a more personal note, i hope i am not out of line, you also said:

"...how do I "learn"/get to "know" this and what is "It" that I get to know? I believe I have experienced love and that I have experienced God's Love but there is no way to share that experience or experience someone else's experience because I am an individual."

this is where the collective unconcious fits in i think... by sharing the stories, that experience becomes shared between individuals, forming the "us" in "collective" through the emotions we each feel and the reactive compassion and empathy...

God has a story... it has changed, adapted with humanities ascension... as humanity ascends, Gods story will continue to adapt.. the last book about God has not been written yet, imo...

the article mentions the concept of transcendance... of maral obligations...

this thread exists because i wanted any other people out there who are lost and confused and cant find a way, to keep looking...

thankyou Darrell, thankyou, you have said so brilliantly how I feel. ((((((Darrell)))))

To openmindedness, tolerance, spirituality and understanding. I wish there were more people like this in the world today, I admire you so much for standing up to what you believe in and not judging. Who has spoken here on this forum who is not Christian? That in itself is judgmental is it not? We don't have to know the ible back to front to be Christian surely?

So many people these days judge others because they are not a 'certain way' or because they dont 'conform' to certain ways ... just live and let live, be and let be if someone needs help and comfort dont turn them away for being 'different' or less knowledgeable than you ....

I admire good Christians for their faith and goodness, a faith that forgives and doesn't judge .... one of those Christians is my friend Tymber, one of the fiercest believers I know, he has never been judgemental, he would never turn anyone away regardless of their faith, to me he is a true Christian, follows in the ways of Jesus and does it without prejudice, preaching or demanding .... sorry, going off here but I just needed to mention it

Tymber if you read this I love you, but you know that anyway, Perna I respect your intelligence and I cannot match it in any way, Darrell I admire and love you for YOUR fight and the way you are so open minded and follow the path YOU choose to believe in, the same path as many others albeit different to the 'norm' whatever that is.....

Sky and Sept I respect YOUR ways, I just think sometimes, although you say people are intolerant of your beliefs, you show the same intolerance to others' points of view, this is in no way meant to be disrespectful to either of you, I still say we are ALL entitled to be free to have our own beliefs and still be accepted, this is such a prolem in the world, this is what has caused so much unrest .... there HAS to be tolerance ....

Sadly I dont think there ever will be, and I'm sure, well IMHO, it was never that higher being's will .......

Jin x

the only thing I have to add..is the word "God" is used far back as Greek mythology to name their God's

Jehova is used in the bible...mostly if called anything other than God

I find it interesting how people become so offended when people don't follow the bible as the gosspel...the bible is easy for me to rip to shreds with words for it's ...well...but people would just get offended...so I wont...this is not directed at any response to this thread...but in the real world

if we are supposed to be fishers of men...you need the right bait or lure for the type of fish...the bible most think imo.....but what I find is if you don't just jump right on the hook ......and question it first....you get accused of not being worthy of their pearls...and called swine that will turn on them after casting their pearls...stuff like that out of the bible,men try to use today...what I experiance is you either go along with them or they don't want to talk about it...if you don't just agree...or ask more than a simple minded question

I am just someone with my own opinion

(((((((Coralproper))))))

thankyou so much ... hugs to you. Jin xx

thanks Jinny, you've made a point i hoped would come out in the open... I do not know Timber as well as you, but my brief experience of him shows me he his a man positive in his faith, draws strength fromit, and uses that strength to love and support others... a kind and fine man... wish there were more who held their faith up as a kind and supportive faith as he does..

COral.. i am estatic that you find thoughts worthy of consideration here and that you are able to access the net for more info ... the net is a wonderful tool and i am thankful for its invention.. it allows those spread far apart to find common connections and i really do think the nets very existence is a positive thing for all...

thanks for your input and i hope this conversation can continue in a positive, learning, growing direction..

What I see is people stumbling around trying to find the Truth. It's all well and good. Most people, if not all, that eventually find that Truth do a lot of stumbling around. I know I did. There was a short time there that I had allowed my thinking to be taken astray by a non-believer and thought that there really was no God.

But as the Bible says, God is the Good Shepherd and came looking for his lost sheep (me). Also, "Phillipians l 1:6 ... He Who hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ..." He has given us free will, but when He wants you in his "sheep fold" He'll keep nudging and nudging.

It has been my experience that a true relationship with Jesus/God is strictly a personal thing, so to think that there is a "collective conscious/unconscious" is an impossibility for me. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm just speaking from my own experience. The Good Shepherd knows each of his sheep and calls them by name. John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine." This also means that we know His voice. We know that it is HE who calls us.

As for Jung, I like what I know of him, but I don't go along with his idea of God and who He really is. The way I read it, Jung puts humans first and then God. It's the other way around. God is Truth, God in body (Jesus) is The Way and the Life. He is above everything, the Alpha and the Omega. Without God, there certainly wouldn't be humanity, much less Jung and his theories/knowledge.

For those who think they could shred the Bible ten ways from continuous, try doing it with someone who knows and understands it. Not here, though. Maybe by PM?

PS Like in everything else, there is good and bad... and there is "different." So with Christianity. In my experience and in fact, also, there are different kinds of Christians. There are "legalistic Christians, "Fundamentalist Christians" and then there are those like me that have had more personal experiences that live more by Faith than what is in textbooks. I'm one of these. I live by Faith, not by sight. I believe what the Bible says through and through because it's been proven to me to be Truth before I even knew what it said. I've had experiences, questioned them and then was led to read it as fact in the Bible. There's not much argument there at all!

No way would I tell someone that has come to their Faith in a different way that they are "wrong." It is THEIR walk with God, not mine. Like I said before, it's an individual relationship that one has with God.

yes September... people are stumbling around in the dark... lost in deception and false truth... and dying in battlefields as we speak...

The compassion of God is a cure.... imo, you've mis-interpreted Jung... i interpret Jungs teachings and faith as a path to God... and that God exists as a collective information... collective unconcious... a thought which exists in the minds of many, of many faiths...

Jung presents archetypes as character forms, aspects of each human beings personality and behaviour and exemplified as "models" of personality types...

these "types" strive to make connection with a HIGHER Being...

i think it can also be misunderstood that Jung names the Self as God its own... i do not percieve it this way, but, more as Perna and !oxbow suggested, God mis, imo, outside us (humans) and as humans, we have very little command over the wishes of God...

God is a Great Other...

as for using only one text for information... it may work in the case of wiring your home for electricity... but, it would not teach you how to build the house.... unless you already possessed those skils naturally...

...again I will say to you Sept .... whoever said that has THEIR opinion, because it is your opinion doesn't mean he/she is wrong or right ..... we all know you have your faith, let others share theirs and the way they percieve it please, if others were to turn around and actually argue the toss with you about hinduism or Buddhism or spiritualism, and SURE they knew THEIR God was the truth, would you be offended?

You think God is THE truth, I believe in God, that makes me Christian, I don't have to believe in YOUR word about how I think
YOU are not the truth if you get what I'm saying ......I'm not posting here for the time being as I was finding my own way and my own path and I am being overwhelmed by these opinions, they are not said in a gentle way Sept, I feel an overwhelming black cloud looming when I read such STRONG opinions......you are entitled of course, but I for one feel very patronised and overwhelmed by such strong views....sorry

Jin

((((((((((JinnyAnn))))))))) i am sorry to see you go....

((Jinny)) - Your belief, your truth and your path is JUST as valid here. Go out and play with some wildflowers if you feel the need. Heck, go ahead and throw a rock at me and Nowheretorun if it makes you feel better. On second thought - make that a snowball. We'll test our aim by shooting spitballs at you.

If it gets too cold out there, you know how to find your way back to the forum.

My apologies if I was unclear. My statement "should we be archetypes of God, instead" should have been stated, "shouldn't we consider ourselves archetypes of God, instead of Him being an archetype of us?" Perhaps even a better statement would have been,"I believe we are archetypes of God, as I believe we are created in HIS image."

I won't be commenting further. TC!

Couldn't an archetype of God be just that, an archetype of that which many are seeking? Archetypes appear in dreams, in stories, in art, and if we can identify them, we can understand more about what is represented and what it means to us. The image or concept of God appears in dreams, in stories, in art, etc. Don't we identify this and thus bring a greater understanding and meaning than if it were a random, meaning-free image or concept presented? We don't worship the archetype, but we do use the archetype to understand more and to move ourselves closer to the concept of God, whether we find that inside ourselves or outside.

And about the collective unconscious...I could be wrong, but I'm not sure that represents God. (I forget if it was Sky or Tomi who wrote about this, and exactly what was said, sorry.) I tend to think of it as a collective knowledge or wisdom that we can tap into. In my own beliefs, I think of it as a tool or waypoint for connecting with God, but I don't think of it as standing in for, representing, or being God.

Just my thoughts on what is an interesting thread.

gg

I think it's dangerous to think of ourselves as archetypes of God or any other "super-hero." At the most, we can only emulate them. We'll never have their "magic" powers, and they are not our servants in life.

I place humans in the number one category because I think it should be a given that God (by whatever name or symbol) comes first - it's our "base." Mankind, Mother Earth, and all living things are on first - THEN we get to head for "home."

I don't think we were placed on this earth to spend our lives pretending to be God, fantasizing about heaven, or focusing only on the sins of others.

I've been reading this thread with great interest. I'm always fascinated by the exploration of one's individual spirituality and the human dynamic which draws us to identifying with a collective consciousness.

I'm not well read on Jung or psychology in general but I'm always interested in how others see the connection between the mind and the spirit.

I'm sorry the discussion here like so many discussions about such explorations became a bit of an either or debate. I personally have no interest in debate because that suggests a right or wrongness. I do have an interest in finding the truth and intellectually I like looking for common ground among alternative persectives. That's the God, Creator of Life that I believe gave me breath, guides my heart and provides me examples of the Love that for me is the purpose of my existance.

I live that I might walk in a knowing Love that breeds life and peace. God is Love works for me. I resist making God too human or too finite or too limited by human consciousness and human experiences. I simply rest in the essense of God's intentions as Great Spirit. The source of spiritual essense from which I originated. Having many purposes as a spiritual being that remain a mystery to me I sense the purpose of my human experience is to transcent into 'life time' the essense, purpose, perfection of Great Spirit's centre which is Love. Life on earth is all about Love and Peace. States of being that are the closest definition and expression of the great beauty and secure safety and supreme satisfaction and unconditional belong that is the true 'paradise' we were created to understand and experience. Words of course are not enough to describe what my heart craves and how my Creator affirms his truth in me. Yet feeling a spiritual connection to a higher source provides me with a sense of purpose and understanding that words and other human constrains can not ever describe. Who among us can describe Love without having experienced it?

Spiritual awakening, awareness, centredness for me means transcending my humanness with spiritual expressions of love, peace, joy, patience, kindness,.... gifts of the spirit world.

I'm interested in what Jung and others have learned from their search for more than worldly expressions of God to answer thier questions. To satisfy their spirit's quest. I can relate to a need to go deeper with a spiritual awakening than to simplify my human consciousness. I sense Creator asking more of me. Asking me to walk in a balance of spirit and humanness. To be able to transcent my humanness to walk in the spirit before I pass on from this earth. I want to know total spiritual enlightenment before I die rather than waiting till after my physical body breaks down and I transend naturally into spirit.

I know from my own experiences and readings that there is a risk involved and it is not for the untrained, inexperienced, falsely led. The spirit world is a very powerful place and it can be a hard consciousness to balance with humanness. A place with both positive and negative energies at work. Shape shifters, transformers, spirit helpers.... what ever you call them... people who carry these gifts and talents practise this level of spirituality sensing the role of spirit in guiding humanity on its journey.

But I digress.....

I think we often over intellectualize the journey we all take towards knowing Creator.... the source of our beginnings, the architect of our doings, the energy force that is invisibly linked to our individual eternal spirit. I think that may be why I don't sweat the small stuff. I don't accept any one 'authority' other than my own spirit when it is seeking to be aligned with Love.

God's essense must be discernable to children, to simple minds, to all beings. If we have to learn rather than feel something as powerful as Creators life force than for me we have gotten distracted.

God is Love..... Love being the definition of paridise on earth. In our hands to make real by our connection to love. Walk in love... walk in beauty..... no fuss no muss works of me.

It's not rocket science... it can't be found by our intellect but I believe it can be feed by our acknowledgement of our spiritual essense. If we see ourselves as spirit then we find our own ways to feeding our spirit with its favourite diet.....love and more love.

Chocolatelover,
You write well about your beliefs. Much of what you said so eloquently, I'm stuck trying to convey by waving my hands around in the general vicinity of my head, hoping that someone can "see into" it to get what I'm trying to say.

Take care,

gg