God, Archtypes, and Jungian Psychology

dang....just got home from work and ate super with the wife and kids....who I'd like to add have the traditional teachings/knowledge of the bible and that is how I'd like them to start out(my kids)..since I do think the MANY denominations of christanity are all a good influence on them....until/if they want to explore other beliefs on their own...I'm ok with that also

septembermom..it is not my intention to shred the bible with words...though I feel comfortable saying..if facts are stuck to, we can have a healthy debate by pm if you like..just pm me..but no blind faith answers...only facts and figures

ok...now that I have a few open minds to listen to me.....I have a question about a common question that I'd like input on..not trying to debate or shred...for the record

one of the most common questions asked by christans...scare tactic in my opinion...
"If you die right now do you know your going to heaven"

Now I know that Jesus makes this promise to you if you become reborn...and this promise is said in many ways in the bible.

there is a day of judgment and a book of deeds and a book of life...and you get through if your name is in the book of life...

why do we need a judgment day if so many can already say their name is in the book of life.....why do they have to wait for jesus to judge them if they can so easy just judge their self...I know it is comforting to think you know your gonna go and Im sure that alot who say they are will..if its all true

So why the analogy about the narrow gates of few entering to heaven and the broad gates to hell with so many more entering, Jesus gives...
why do so many more think they can say they know they are going..knowing their name is in the book of life ....than say they are not sure...I dont need all the promises given in the bible here since I have already saw them, and they are promises given by holy men not just men like us...its more of a discussion for me..on what other men/women think about this, not bible promise's comprehended by many differant denominations many differant ways

If I ever do see Jesus on judgment day I would hope to be humble at his feet, and hope I'm worthy of my name being in the book of life, than to have the attitude..."well here I am Jesus let me through I already know Im going so save your time and just judge all the ones going to hell"..and then have to go with the many through the broad gates to hell...since I already judged myself.....and my name was not in the book of life like I thought

but heres where I'm trying to, get to..I have found in real life if you dont say "I know I'm going"...then somthing is wrong with you...they think..you have to already know your going to go

is the book of deeds and life just a euphemism...for somthing else I don't comprehend...other than somthing used by jesus to read out judgments for "ALL"....even when we don't really need to be judged, if we just believe we are reborn..and already know we are going

eddie

I like how you said that.... 'tool or waystation for connecting with God.' Highlights the importance of human interactions in our journey to knowing God.

Suggests to me that interacting in physical form as humans is part of the journey for enriching a deeper and deeper spirit consciousness.

Live among others lovingly to become a more loving people... become more connected to the love source. Live respectfully, tolerantly, curiously, wisely, optomistically.... become one who reflect the qualities... become the essense of the qualities... align by spirit... beyond intellect.

From a Christian perspective I think perhaps Jesus would fit the archetype profiling better than G-d. The stories are told that we might be more like him. Jesus' journey in human form to lead by example how to think, act and do all things in a spirit of love.

From other religious, spirituality-based perspectives, I see the story and lessons of Jesus told there too. I see it in ceremonies and rituals across religions that impart the same teaching and identify a similar archetype for the purpose of connecting people to the higher power. To guide people to know their spiritual essense within an authentic cultural context. Within an context true to every persons spiritual essense. Unique yet familiar to all.

Kathy and Jinny.. whenever i think of snow and spit balls i think if that movie... Dumb and Dumber ... lol .. i hope you've seen it.. yes, please come back when comfortable Jinny... your views seem pretty on track to me, and what i think i enjoy best is how my view, and your view, are not the same and still, each is a good thing imo...

Sky, maybe you are owed an apology here.. ive waffled back and forth over this... in re-reading the post in question, you only asked a question... i apologise that i didnt treat it as that and ive learned (again) from this... i hope you will reconsider joining the discussion... September, the same applies for you... i only want to do my best to answer the questions you pose... not bash...

GG... yeah, similar thoughts as you... the archetype is a tool... who would worship a shovel? i can imagine feeling great gratitude for a shovel in a specific situation... but not worship... use, care for, maintain, repair, even replace... but not worship..

ChocolateLover... i recieved from your words a great caring and benevolence... a high dimension of self=awareness, other awareness... connectedness... transendance is apparant in your ideas and thoughts and i pick up a true desire to be a servant of God Force coming from you...

i know little of your personal path, but in my eye, it is well rewarding by example of you...

Chocolatelover said: </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I'm interested in what Jung and others have learned from their search for more than worldly expressions of God to answer thier questions. To satisfy their spirit's quest. I can relate to a need to go deeper with a spiritual awakening than to simplify my human consciousness. I sense Creator asking more of me. Asking me to walk in a balance of spirit and humanness. To be able to transcent my humanness to walk in the spirit before I pass on from this earth. I want to know total spiritual enlightenment before I die rather than waiting till after my physical body breaks down and I transend naturally into spirit.

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your quote gives Meaning to Life...

Coral... good questions... thanks for being involved.. i hope someone who knows may be able to answer...

Blessed be ........

Jin xx

choclatelover

I do not have the organization with words that allot here have,but something you said about Jesus as a human form....his last words on the cross..different in different books in the bible, but in one of them...

I think it is,(Father why has thou forsaken me)..or something pretty close.....do you think he was human as could be at this point.....after almost all his discipeles forsook him, as well, after even walking with him..and might of thought even he would not make it to heaven(when he said this)....so therefore ..its possibly normal for us as actual humans to feel this way ,as well

I haven't read the posts that follow yours eddie but I wanted to interject a perspective that alters the way I look at the bible stories you are puzzling about. One that keeps me from engaging in theological debates because I don't like to get caught up in details when exploring spiritual questions. It distracts me from being spirit lead in my thinking. It hold my heart too protected sometimes and confuses my search. Not one to debate facts in the context of spiritual thought. Seems counter productive to me.

What first struck me and gave me cause to comment on your post was the notion of 'going' someplace as though it were an actually physical destination, made up of mass and matter. And the notion attached to that 'going' of earning the privledge... of 'measuring up'.

I don't see the stories and lessons you were recounting quiet so literally. I see lessons about the choices we make everyday....lead by spirit or left with only our physical, mental and emotional dimensions to guide us. Its a message for me to remain connected and conscious of my spirit-ness. To be filled with the essense of God in all that I think and model the gifts of the Spirit and the lessons of the Prince in all that I do.

It's not for me a message about our rights of passage to be earned while alive and cashed in when our physical body dies or when time ends. It's for me about a perspective on living an earthy life acknowledging my spiritual essense. We all fit and operate and journey through the same universe of timelessness. Pathways will come and they will go from our midst and the journeys we take will be influenced by many factors. The question we face everyday is the one Jesus asks about. The path, the view that is lead by a spirit consciousness or the view that is lead outside the spirit.

What Jesus reflects for me is a life lead by spirit. So I figure if I live my life lead more and more by spirit.... which is essensially a physical manifestation of heaven.... the kingdom of God... the home of our spirit then I will be walking in wholeness on earth and in all other dimension.

I walk, talk, breath, feel and touch in real time. At the same time I exisit as a spirit in eternal timelessness. I exist as a spiritual being having a human experience in both a micro minute of my earth time experience and in a macro eternal life in endless spirt time.

opps.... meant to keep this short......

wow...I like how you talk..but am confused if you are a bible follower and believe in Jesus, as the only way to salvation/or the kingdom...(not that it really matters) just curious

my questions still remain.... ..perhaps for someone else

I admire your virtues.....as well as others here...would you say if you die today your going to the kingdom?you don't have to answer if you'd rather not...just curious

thanks
eddie

all I can offer is my perspective from the lesson as I learn it for myself but here's what I take from the story of the cross.

Jesus admitted his spirit was weak at that moment. He spoke the words to allow his spirit to weaken in my view. To ensure his last breaths were a reflection of his human life form so that all might know that he felt and carried our human pains. He'd mustered every bit of strength from his spirit consciousness, his true essense, the source of our true essense to make it to the cross. Through the most difficult and inhumane of circumstances he stayed in spirit consciousness. Until the last moment.

Those last moments his physcial consciousness felt and cryed from the pain. He let go of the protection of his spirit consciousness to show us that he knew the effects and the horrors of suffering that comes from a disconnection from spirit.

He was assending to heaven and teaching us that assension is a choice. A giving up of the physical and acknowledging the spiritual. He was already showing us to choice heaven's way. He was further affirming that we had to power to choice the way of paridise for ourselves when our time of testings come.

Again... on the topic of heaven... I don't see Heaven as a destination one qualifies for but more of a dimension of timelessness one choices to experience. It exists always and forever and we have a choice to experience it in all of its dimensions during our physical and spiritual timeframes.

It's like with God.... if we try to crasp the essense of a supreme being within the context of our limited human form and consciousness then we won't be able to crasp the spirit of God without putting 'Him' into some human context and then 'He' becomes judgeable. An automatic disconnect. A hell of a decision that is the opposite of heaven..

If we think of Heaven and Hell as physical destinations or even compare them to our perspective of physical destinations rather than see them as themselves spiritual consciousnesses, then we are going to, in my my view, miss the truth. There in begins the role of faith and admiration for the enormity of creation. The cause of worship if you will. Too awesome for words... too awesome for the human psychi to comprehend. An admiration and appreciation expressed best in song and praise. Makes me want to sing just thinking about it. wow....

cool reply

thanks

I don't limit Jesus to making himself known and his message understood to only one religion. I believe Jesus appeared to all in the context of every culture and religious expression. The essense of Jesus is his message. Connect by spirit to Creator God. Follow my example, hear my teachings and find your way through me to Creator God.

So yes I do believe Jesus is the only way. The Jesus that manifests himslef for all to see in the context of our own culture and experiences.

As for going anywhere.... I'm already in the kingdom of God. He put me here when he breathed life into my spirit and sent me to earth school. I will return to sit with God when my journey here is done. No more long distance telephone calls to my Creator amid the interferane of my life.

wow..now thats what I was looking for in my question to you

I like that you don't condem(or debate) others just because they dont follow the "King James" version of the bible..and leave it open to other cultures views as well

I really want to find what you have .....I know its all around me though...

thanks again

Wow.... that's been fun and interesting. Better pull myself away. Listen to my spirit telling me to pace myself and practice good self care to restore my energy. My spirit has been feed, time I go do the same for my body and feed it some dinner over here.

Catch up another time.

Walk in beauty...... find the peace

i am going to respectfully differ chocolate... i just cannot see Jesus being the only way and i have a number of reasons why, in my opinion, it is dangerous to believe so..

i will agree that to follow Jesus, the teachings of the Bible, etc, are "a" way to find God... but i disagree that it is the only way...

i sense that ideaology is an invention of man, humans, and therefore, imperfect... if an individual thought in a mans head is once removed from God... how many steps removed are 1000 thoughts?.... one million thoughts? how many thoughts are in the Bible?

the potential for misinterpretation is astounding and happens and happens in ways which have caused harm... the proof is in the news... and in body counts..

the same applies for those who are accused of misinterpreting the Koran or the books of Dante or of Jung ...

youve spoken of essence of spirit... i believe words fail to describe and beyond, toxify the esssence.. and ideaologies even more so...

imo God exists in a simple flower bud... seen with the eye, not read with the mind... imo

yes... I believe that too.... it is all around you. It is that still quiet voice inside you that causes you to search. Mediate on yourself as a spiritual being and see where that takes you. Just rest in the concept without needing to understand the how or why. Visualize spiritual awareness as your centre of peace. Free yourself from human assumptions and set your spirit free. Give up the need to control and intellectually understand. Let your craving for love, peace, joy, hope be your guide.

I dont think choclatelover is seperating jesus from god really since they are "one" in the trinity..in the bible

to say its ok to be in another religion and still be learning from jesus in a different way, is a major step to me...not having to be baptized reborn...etc etc...nothing like traditional down your throat belief in jesus as the only way...or you go to hell...as I meant....but still at one with God and peace.....

may be wrong

thanks to everyone... this is an enjoyable and enlightening thread.... i appreciate all your input and sincerities.. Blessings All...

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i believe words fail to describe and beyond, toxify the esssence.. and ideaologies even more so... imo God exists in a simple flower bud... seen with the eye, not read with the mind... imo

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I see it too. Words cannot capture the essense of God and God is in everything.... all of creation is an expression of God love. When I enjoy the gifts of nature I know I am communing with God. I commune with the spirit world when I meditate on a rock cliff and see the faces and symbols of my ancestors and my culture. I commune with God when I sit by the river and sing with the birds and marvel at the strength of the water and the rocks. I commune with God and marvel and respect his creations.

I hear what you are saying about the Christian view of Jesus as the only way. I'm just suggesting that every religion got the same message but it gets presented differently and it is 'their way'. The message is that God is love. That God is the way. Is that not the true essense of every spiritual concept. God is Love and the way to know his love is to follow his messangers.

I rebell against any message that is excludes anyone. I respond to a message I think is universal and I beleive the life and times of Jesus is universally told in context appropriate to one's own culture, identity and perspective.

I think we are saying the same thing. It just may be how we interpret 'the way' and how we load the language to cloud the essense of its truth.

My belief starts and ends with acknowledging a higher power who created me to be aligned in spirit with my Creator and all of creation. My spiritual awakening was facilitated by my culture's expression of the lessons of Jesus in ways different but equally significant and real as the way recounted in the bible.

oh my.... really starting to babble here. Getting a little non-sensical. Great discussion. Love it.

had to edit what the quote captured...

yes Chocolate, i agree.. in All things.. in the beauty, as well as the "not so pretty" .. beauty is a mountain, beauty is a rockpile, beauty is a garbage can spilled in an alleyway... God is in all of these things and places and times...

ok, so, now my thoughts this morning say... so if words only confuse, and archetypes and psychology are presented using words... what other alternatives are available for experiencing archetypes...

music? art? others?

Its funny have been thinking this morning along these lines I think.....
As much as what is written, I do not get........but thats ok
my thought on god... IMHO
I blieve god is in everyone of us. No matter what religion you are.
WHen Jesus first started preaching, :teaching" he did it out in the open air. no church did he have, or a name for it. He just knew his father.
Somewheres it says no object is to be prayed to,
I believe like choc god is everywhere, and he loves us all

No matter how we choose to pray, or honor ..god knows..
he knows whats in our hearts...........

i agree muffy... im not as well versed as some, but this is my understanding: that Jesus, thru the Father (and i do have issue calling God male, female, or any gender, but more on that later maybe) made a statement similar to "worship no icons"

this i think was in response to the previous history of worship which included idolotry... he witnessed people practicing worship of many gods (as in Hinduism) and beleiving there was only one great Spirit, his statement is interpreted as condemning of worshiping objects versus spirit, which, imo, is a transending thought.. but also, this doctrine appears to disrespect and alienate anothers belief system (still in existence today) ...

others will know more than i, but its my current understanding and i want to add... understanding intellectually and believing spiritually have not always met easily for me..

not to get too many topics going at once, but chocolate (or others) ... i'd like to hear more about your view of "spirit quest" ... i have my own thoughts, but i'd enjoy hearing others ideas... thank you...

((((Jinny)))) it is good to see you back (((smiles)))

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coralproper said:
I think it is,(Father why has thou forsaken me)..or something pretty close.....do you think he was human as could be at this point.....after almost all his discipeles forsook him, as well, after even walking with him..and might of thought even he would not make it to heaven(when he said this)....so therefore ..its possibly normal for us as actual humans to feel this way ,as well

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I think one of the differences between Jesus and "us" is that he actually was forsaken. I have felt forsaken but don't think I have ever actually been. I think the "purpose" of feeling forsaken is different for Christ versus me. However, I don't think it is "wrong" to feel any way one feels; all feelings are human/"normal". If one thinks one is forsaken, one is going to/"should" feel forsaken. I think Christ was forsaken to show he was totally devoid of any "in" with God the Father, wasn't "special" other than as a "Sacrifice". My feeling forsaken is a clue to me to "check again" and see if I can't find resources to support me, if "only" God.

Chocolatelover

I've spoken with traditional native elders, and they tell me their people were connected to their Creator long before the introduction of Jesus by settlers. I know many Christians who consider traditional native culture "evil." I know traditional natives who consider Christianity "evil" (Manifest Destiny, boarding schools, etc.). I've seen SO MANY families torn apart over this. I've seen people choose their church family over flesh and blood - to the point of bloodshed against their own people, for the good of the church.

Are you allowed to fully honor your traditional ancestors in your church, and do you think you will see them again in heaven?

I hope this isn't too personal.

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KathyM said:
Chocolatelover

I've spoken with traditional native elders, and they tell me their people were connected to their Creator long before the introduction of Jesus by settlers. I know many Christians who consider traditional native culture "evil." I know traditional natives who consider Christianity "evil" (Manifest Destiny, boarding schools, etc.). I've seen SO MANY families torn apart over this. I've seen people choose their church family over flesh and blood - to the point of bloodshed against their own people, for the good of the church.

Are you allowed to fully honor your traditional ancestors in your church, and do you think you will see them again in heaven?

I hope this isn't too personal.

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Many years ago when one of my grandfathers passed away. He was married to a native american"senaca nation"
Anyways he was buried half senaca way half the way my dad wanted it.

Just my thoughts god " Creator" sees us all........
I hope its ok to answer. Sorry if not...
I think we get to see everyone again in heaven...our family , our friends, our pets.
I think god is honored if we honor him no matter how its done.
Hope this was ok to post....