God, Archtypes, and Jungian Psychology

Muffy - It's okay because you didn't answer for Chocolatelover, lol. I feel the same way - i.e., we are all God's children. Nice to know your grandfather honored his wife.

Spirit Quest..... Vision Quest..... aligning one's spirit with Great Spirit for guidence and direction, to receive a vision for one's life or answers to a dilema. Term commonly heard in native cultures. Of course it has its counterparts in all religions. Prayer and fasting while waiting upon God. It is common practise among many Christians to retreat for a period of time into a prayer closet where undistracted they commune with God and wait upon God to answer their prayers. Judaism and Islam have their counterparts as does every other religion of the world. Same concept, different language, different culturally based religious reference.

Like anything involving the spirit world it can be done 'religiously' in the sense that there are specific steps and protocols involved. In my community, a traditional vision quest usually involves a number of days spent in the wilderness alone with just water to sustain you as you wait upon Great Spirit to enlighten you. Free of all worldly distractions and phsyical comforts -- usually sent during inclement weather with no blanket to intensify the experience -- to facilitate the transition into full spirit consciousness -- the person enters into a deep and intense spiritual communion with the spirit world -- kingdom of God. Its a right of passage into adulthood, and later a place people go when wrestling with major dilemas or seeking direction, preparing to make major changes in their lives.

It can be very ceremonial and involve the whole community keeping a fire for the time they are gone and saying prayers in support of those out on a quest in the wilderness. There will be ceremonies before, during an after to ensure the person on the quest is protected and helped by other spirits/angels/guides. I've not myself taken a vision quest though I have served as helper to prepare, support and transition back those who have taken the quest.

I'm a little too pampered to suffer that much physcial discomfort to endure a quest. Perhaps had I been exposed as a youth I might have been more adventurous and willing. For me any intense time of communion with God is a quest. A search of answers outside my physical consciousness. A transition into a spirit consciousness where I can see, feel, hear in the spirit which is kept from me in the physical. It's serious prayer time. Sometimes in involves fasting from food, sleep, human interactions -- striped of anything that may distract from the journey to being with Creator for a time of special enlightenment.

Yes KathyM.... I've witnessed all of that too. Religious intolerance in any form is cause for a very heavy heart. They are not of God but of the godless who are the most deceived. One can almost feel the tears of Creator and the sadness among the angels to see it go on and on and on.....

Many of my community's precious artifacts were burned because early religious Christians saw the paintings and carvings as evil. The ancestor's weeping can still be heard and be interpreted in the signs left behind. That is precisely why my beliefs are so liberal for lack of a better word. No matter the cultural context there is but one God -- 'the great spirit creator who has many names' but whose message is consistant. Walk with me in love and harmony and know my beauty from within where we commune together in peace.

God meets us where we are. That teaching is a cornerstone for me. It tells me no matter the context, the culture, the tradition, religious practise, the world view.... no matter the decor or setting or colour of the skin of the believers.... God makes 'his' presence known. Is accessable to everyone in the way that they will best understand. Naked before God with nothing but a willing heart or dressed up in ceremonial robes and loaded with abundant offerings.... the same before God.

I avoid cluttering my faith, my relationship with God with too much doctrine, too much ceremony, too much ritual. Too many boundaries.... rules, regulations, right, wrong, good, bad.... they distract me from my relationship with God and the spirit world. I've seen too much death and distruction in the name of God to have any tolerance for religious discord.

One can sit in a Chruch and sing with the choir and listen to the preacher. One can do all that twice a week for a lifetime and still never have a personal spiritual connection with Creator... still not choosing the way when the time comes for them to look. One can even go into a sweat lodge and be surrounded by the sights and sounds of the spirit world and not see any of them or learn anything from them. Ritual and ceremony does not cause one to know God.

God is love and the messages from Jesus came to remind us to be loving and kind and giving to one another. To break out of the chains of religion and rest in the love of God. Simple message. Clear rebuke of 'religiousity'.

The messages of Jesus' coming is to tell us to put aside our distracting ways. Put aside our prejudices, put aside our hurtful attitudes, put aside anything that causes one to not love and care for all living things. The messages of Jesus said love our neighbours as ourself. Love as I have loved. Love...... He didn't come to show us the latest candle lighting technique... from the left or from the right.... clockwise or counter clockwise.... red robe or purple... no jesus came with nothing, carried nothing, and left again with nothing of earthly value. His lax attitude about ritual got him into trouble with the ritual holders but he told them to get their focus back on God the Spirit.

Without love there is no God. The message of Jesus exuded love and had need for nothing because love was enough. Love caused others to feed him. To wash his feet and fill his cup. To care for him, to hear his wisdom, to follow his example. Love did that. The message is to be like Jesus, walk always in love, in need of nothing. Lead by a faith that love will never fail.

I have attended chuches, temples, longhouses and various other places of prayer and worship. Some are more tolerant than others of my native tradtions and views. I'm respectful of each communities right to worship in their own way. I can be with God in all of those places. I practise native spirituality with ceremonies passed down by the ancestors at a church where everthing is integrated. We don't have many trappings of religion around us. Just an open space where we pray, sing, share wisdom and understanding, dance and feast. We honour our ancestors and whe practise our traditions -- respectful of both ancient and modern understandings. We read from the Bible and from other sacred writings. We listen to prophecy and we discern its teachings.

Free to be free in the spirit.... all children of the same God... all touched by the messangers, the angels that do the work of the heavens on earth. Connected by love. Living to know and be one with love.

As usually I babbled on and didn't really answer the question asked. I'll try to do it without rambling....

I think all people of the earth knew Creator before, during and after the messages of Jesus were brought to them. Without going into detail... its about time and space consciousness. eeks... stopping a temptation to ramble.....

Some aspects of native spirituality do involve 'bad spirits'. Medicines and ceremonies can be used for good or for evil. This isn't exclusive to native spirituality. ... breaks on the babble....

God asks us to turn from our evil ways not to turn away those who may practise evil or be lost in evil clutches.

I honour my ancestors in all that I do, think and feel wherever I am at. They live in me in spirit and in deed. They guide me and strengthen me. I don't practise rituals where they are not welcomed or understood but with or without ritual I am honouring my ancestors by honour our Creator and carrying on the faith for other generations.

I see my ancestors and loved ones now in spirit but will be free in spirit to walk and talk and play with them when my life time on earth has run its course.

In heaven, paradise, the great hunting grounds in the sky.... perfection as each of us imagines .... that place where we are all spirit.... all perfect.... all peaceful..... beyond imaginings.... preparing for another chapter in our eternal life story.

Ok.... now that I've babbled myself silly.... here's a question back at you guys.

How does your concept of God and spirituality contribute to or contaminate your recovery? How does it aid or hinder your ability to cope with mental illness?

As you can imagine I could ramble a good tale about my own journey but will hold off untill others reply before I hog anymore space here.

gee... hope I didn't kill the thread with my ramblings. sorry... I think I'm a thread killer.... eeks

LOL chocolatelover. I used to think it was ME who accidentally killed threads with my rambling, but if you want to take the trophy be my guest. From what I hear, you might have to fight Kimmydawn for the title though, lol.

I gotta admit you had me spinning for a minute there wondering if the answer was Yes or No. I appreciate your response.

I don't have an answer to your question, so I guess we'll have to wait for someone else to show up and resuscitate this thread for us.

lol... dare I reply and have my name be the last to show on the menu.... can't resist.....

I just wanted to add.... lol.... my answer to any religious/spiritual question is usually captured best by the teaching.... 'all things are possible for s/he who believes.....' That says to me.... if its important to you to believe something..... and its grounded in love and goodness.... than it will be as you believe it to be. If you believe you will see your puppy or a loved one in heaven when you get there than you will see them in heaven. If you believe in Heaven.... it will be as you believe.

Connecting with God is meant to be easy and to remain easy with or without a manual of learned beliefs and shared traditions. Come first a children.... thirsting for love and knowledge.... trusting and open.

muffy..I agree that God is in all of us...though people like charles mansion may have had more of Satan...who God created with his power..imo

God being all around us , I agree also, as the holy ghost some would say...

perna...I like your reply,my comment about this was to try to
show why I feel I can say I am not sure if I will go to heaven...since for all I know I could have commited blasphemy against the holy ghost inadvertantly....since I am not sure what it is exactly..since there is only one example in the bible,that I know..and is the only unforgivable sin..if the bible is correct about this...then there is a long list of guidelines all different by different denominations..that seem to condemn..myself & some people here

one reason I am scared to be baptist(main religion around me) or many others...is that they,in my experiance, say pentecostel's dont really speak in tounges(when over come by the holy ghost).....and this might be blasphemy against the holy ghost for all I know...though even a baptist can rationaly justify their reasons and make since to me ..as can the pentecostels

far as the object worship go's...they almost all like to condemn catholics for this...in my experiance...and some of the most spiritual....caring people I have met were catholic

this is why I want to think(be spiritual)..like nowheretorun and chocolete lover...they condemn no religion..denomination

far as the babble'n go's...I thought that was me that got nowhere's thread of track...with my disorganized thoughts/speech LOL...sorry about that again nowheretorun

everyones views here have helped me think

Chocolatelover, I feel you are right on the mark. I believe that believing and having faith in the all knowing unseen God, is all that is needed, in making it simple. Love is second to none, Love thy neighbor as thy self. And lastly belief in the fact that Jesus died on the cross to take away the sins of the world.

Coral, Never feel that you are unforgiven. Go to God in prayer and ask to be forgiven for your sins, and He will forgive you. Then practice your faith by not returning and doing those same sins over again. It is never to late to turn your life over to God.

I feel comfortable saying that I have turned my actions/life to god type love many many years ago.."best I can for now"..but still have discontent with myself

I am afraid that belief in only the bible and the cross condmen every other belief though...so i can not go along with these specific scriptures that pretain to this condemnation..even if it sends me to hell

I dont feel unforgiven since I dont know exactly what i believe yet.....
I just don't like to feel pressure from almost all christan denominations around me in real life.. to say after being reborn that I "know" I am going to heaven...to fit in with all the christans around me..but feel i am as well or better versed about the cross/bible/scriptures.... as allot I have been around .
and I feel outcast and alone on my spiritual journey "in real life".....ie at work in the religious community etc
my wife btw ..is a firm bible beliver..though not as strick/religious as most...since her Itailan grandparents are catholic..though she is not..and does not really ask or talk about religion much

I just think that I need to have a since of humility in the sight of Jesus if ever there is this point in time of judgment, and hope I am worthy and my name is in the book of life...not know I am worthy....one of my main problems with the southern baptists,pentecostles,etc,etc...that I am in contact with....many seem to think this means I'm not reborn then..if I cant give the answer they want to the #1 question

I just want to go through the narrow gate if this is something real...with the few. and not play on every word of the many..that almost always condemn most of the rest

thanks for the kind reply...

not trying to build a tower to heaven here .....just babble'n..sorry all

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coralproper said:
I am afraid that belief in only the bible and the cross condmen every other belief though...so i can not go along with these specific scriptures that pretain to this condemnation..even if it sends me to hell

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Coral

I'm with you on that one because I've seen how it's been played out around here. It justifies hatred, discrimination, and oppression. It provides "believers" with an enemy with which to wage and justify wars. It baffles me that some people believe they are automatically forgiven for these sins.

When I was a teen, I was walking with some Christian friends to register for our first year of high school. We were nervous because we'd heard about how the older students picked on freshmen. We were also nervous because it was the first year Chicago introduced bussing (desegregation) and the black students who would be bussed to our school were described as very dangerous because they were poor.

My friends convinced themselves they didn't have to worry about anything because they were "better" than everyone else and God would protect them because they are good Christians. I was baffled by this statement.

Years later, I was sitting in a church during a time when congregation members stepped up to speak. One member spoke of the drug addicts and thieves outside. He implied they were lowly and worthless people because they didn't have Jesus in their lives - he claimed all of us inside were "special projects," deserving of all the joys in life. I was baffled by this statement.

When I moved back to the home where I was raised, I brought my husband (Mexican) and young son (black/white) to my former childhood church for Christmas service. After so many years, I was hoping the congregation had let go of their racial hatred. The pastor spoke of new people present and pointed everyone out. Everyone else (new faces) was able to remain seated when pointed out. We had to stand for the audience - TWICE. We weren't "welcomed" - we were scrutinized and made to feel like targets. Sure they smiled at us, but I could see "GET OUT!" in their eyes. After the service, we were completely ignored by the congregation AND pastor.

I have nothing against the Bible, but I don't like to see it used as a weapon OR a shield. It makes me angry when strangers are judged like this because none of those people ever walked in the shoes of the dangerous or lowly and worthless people.

It's easy to be joyful when you have food/water, shelter, clothing AND you're surrounded by supportive friends. IMO, the true test of faith is when all this is taken away. We're all "warriors" in our own way, and we all have loaded "guns" When our shelter and support is removed, what will we choose - silent indifference, hunger for vengeance, or words from a wicked tongue? The Bible can't answer that question for everyone today, it doesn't specify which individuals will deserve to be fed, and it can't guarantee who will deserve shelter.

this open discussion is good to see... thank you everyone... i may try to add some thoughts later....

Okay - see you later, Nowheretorun. It's nice to know you don't mind us dribbling all over your thread.

Kathy, Muffy, Perna, Chocolate, and All...

i was really hoping to refer to something besides the Bible and Jesus..

being raised in America, its nearly impossible to live without bubmping into those topics again and again and for me, its like a brick wall... unless i accept Jesus in my heart as my personal savior, according to "them" i can expect to go to Hell... i dont care for this type thinking...

imo, God is an entity separate from the teachings of any man or woman... i really felt a breakthrough at realizing that God can be seen, heard, felt... but to try and mentally diagnose becomes a puzzle with parts from many cultures and faiths...

i, myself, would prefer to see the Spirit as undistilled and as pure as possible.. personally, i find the Bible and its system o be an entrapment of sorts... conditions are placed upon my own Spirit in order to find and experience that whoch is free in its entirety.. how does one feel this free truth by boxing oneself into dogma?

It is the conditionalm acceptance that traditional Christianity places on my soul that i am uneasy with..

imo, God is aware of my human limitations and i am forgiven for that reason alone... i need not qualify for acceptance in Gods' arms... i was made by God for a purpose.. i agree with Jung that i have Moral obligation to uphold that purpose.. i do not believe in God as a damning judge...

i believe in God as a life affirming and supportive friend, one who loves me unconditionally despite my imperfections...

when an attempt is made to manipulate Gods' image for mans' gain, i believe this is the definaition of blasphemy...

to use the image of God to manipulate Gods' children is an act worth damining imo, but it is not Hell (after death) that one will experience, but Hell on Earth.. in the formm of war, social unrest, domestic violence, insanity, etc...

to use a path of salvation as an instrument to incite fear and intolerance and death is, imo, one of the greatest sins mankind can commit.. and if there is a Hell after death, i believe those guilty of creating Hell on Earth are destined for it...

God, imo, has no desire to see or participate in the slaughter of man...

this is why, imo, i am turned from the faiths which use and manipulate words to conscribe to evil...

i believe history repeats itself in many cases because of reliance upon ideaolgies that have gained large followings, led by those who maintain political connections and in turn young men and women find themselves on bloody foriegn soil... this is not what God is about imo...

any book or text which supports same, is not sacred and is not God, but the minds of wealthy, powerful and manipulative men and women... alive now, and working on their own goals, in this day and age, in the present...

then horrors of religious manipulation continue still... how long will we be the pawns in this game?

when will we break free?

I don't believe religion can be blamed for all the world's ills. I think living/life and people doing "their" thing is responsible. I know it isn't the dinosaurs fault or some mega conspiracy but just "normal" history taking place. As this generation German "children" complain, Hitler and WWII were not of their making, why must they still be under the restrictions put in force after that War? Those living in the former Soviet Union are not "responsible" for Communism or the Cold War.

I believe there's both continuity and "new" taking place with each generation and each generation's individuals decide how to respond to what is in front of them. You and I feel "pure" and like there's no way we would be party to war but we war with ourselves and our neighbors, some bomb in the name of "peace", etc.

Today or tomorrow is the beginning of the three day festival, eid Al-Adha, the Festival of Sacrifice, in the Muslim world. It commemorates Abraham giving his son Ismael up for sacrifice (half-brother Isaac for Christians).
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It is very important to understand that the sacrifice itself, as practiced by Muslims, has nothing to do with atoning for our sins or using the blood to wash ourselves from sin. This is a misunderstanding by those of previous generations: "It is not their meat nor their blood that reaches Allah; it is your piety that reaches Him." (Qur'an 22:37)

The symbolism is in the attitude - a willingness to make sacrifices in our lives in order to stay on the Straight Path. Each of us makes small sacrifices, giving up things that are fun or important to us. A true Muslim, one who submits his or herself completely to the Lord, is willing to follow Allah's commands completely and obediently. It is this strength of heart, purity in faith, and willing obedience that our Lord desires from us. (from islam.about.com)

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I think, Nowhere, that what one believes, religious or otherwise, drive one's behavior. That's what therapy/CBT teaches as well as what is "obvious". I don't think what anyone believes is bad/wrong, only the behavior they choose. One can think and feel what one thinks and feels but it is the "expression" of that thinking and feeling that I believe matters. The care one takes in posting, for example, is an "action" and whether one takes the time to spell check or think through what one says and whether that "shows" is important to me.

We are all related and in "this" together. But we are also all individuals with individual beliefs and ideas of what is right/wrong, good/bad, heaven/hell, etc. That some Believe and quote the Bible does not, in itself, either bother or thrill me. Their individual character that I connect with, their "Divine Spark" that shows in their posts is what I'm looking to meet up with, learn and grow from. That's my purpose here.

IMHO, nowheretorun
I think gods lets all of us into heaven

thanks muffster.... simple and complete : )

Wow... so much I want to comment on.... how do I do this without rambling my thoughts.... I am right there with so much of what you've shared, I'm chomping at the bit here.

First... The bible.... half the book is an accounting of how the people got themselves bound in religion without knowing God..... the other half of the book is a story of faith. The coming of the Messiah, the messanger of peace. The one promised in the old book prophecy. The messager, Jesus came to set the people free of religious doctrine and the fear that had come to represent God. Jesus cam to awaken their spirits and get them away from the religious trapings that are not of God. Jesus came to show the people that the way to the God was in the hearts of people and not in the ceremonies and rituals of religion.

The problem is not in the Bible as a book of history and inspired teaching. And its not in the essence and message of Jesus. The problem for me is with what people do with the Bible and how they interprete the visit from Jesus's first coming, and promised second coming.

The same religiousity that opened the heavens for a visit to earth by Jesus has built up again by the making of a new religion and naming it after Jesus. Christianity -- followers of Christ Jesus. Believers in his message. But true belief in his message would be to denounce organized religion. That was his message. Follow me. He told the people to build his Church -- him being the Chruch. Not bricks and mortor and narrow doctine and an exclusive club mantality.

The Bible speaks to me as I meditate on the stories, songs and lessons. Jesus speaks to me as I pray and follow his example to knowing God as a God of Love. My life example is Jesus because of his message of peace.

What puzzles me most in my spiritual journey is why we aren't living in peace. Why people are still living in fear.

I'm a pacifist because I believe the Bible teaches us that Jesus was a pacifist. War could not be an option for a true believer, for a true follower of Christ and his teachings. I can't get past that one. To consider war or the distruction of Mother Earth as acceptable to God is beyond my comprehension. With that as my measure of a true believer of Jesus Chrsit... the circle is very small.

Jesus represents a human experience free of the effects of fear. Overcoming fear is what Jesus represents. Over coming the fear that leads to wars, famines, environmental disasters....... Our world is still operating from a place of fear. Where is the peace? Where is Jesus?

Can a true follower of Christ really support wars, capitalism that exploits people, colonialism that destroys cultures, empirialism that overpowers the earth. Not according to Jesus they can't. But yet followers of Jesus do. Did they just not get the message or is this really how they thing Jesus would have us be living -- free of fear -- consumed by love -- one in a community of the world.

Sorry... I did want to comment on specific points you made nowhere but got myself caught again in a rant. Will come back and try again later.

Thank you Perna... your post was a true blessing for me. I appreciate your contribution to my growth today. I will take time to meditate on the words you shared.

Walk in peace...

you're doin' fine imo chocolatelover.. thank you and i am inspired...

Thanks NW.... I came back to delete my post but your words encouraged me. Be back again later.

Joy to the World......

hi Perna, it took me some time to process your post (cool) and i bet i could still glean more... thank you, the quote from about.com is a very good read... i feel uplift and honest approach in the words..

i agree that religion is only a portion of the Earths' pains.. hard to give an estimate... maybe 50%? idk...

people doing their own thing? yeah, i'd give that a column in the overall assessment... i'd say its a mis-understanding of what freedom is...

Jung says there is a Moral obligation... i ask, in what way do obligation and freedom merge? it seems a crux... so, perhaps, one is easier than the other?

Perna said: </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
We are all related and in "this" together. But we are also all individuals with individual beliefs and ideas of what is right/wrong, good/bad, heaven/hell, etc.

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most of us are against basic real life horror despite or maybe because of our chosen faith aren't we?

war is rarely popular with the people... rarely do the people decide to go to war... usually only in cases of revolution...

governments usually choose war... from the small political camps in remote African jungles to world politics...

at home, within our own borders, in cities and towns, destruction and intolerance continues because there is no stability in our leadership.. there is no continuing tranquility... where are the peoples examples?

i should say, im not anti Bible... but chocolatelover used the terms "narrow minded doctines" ...

i acknowledge that those who are guilty of mis-interpretations are not the true followers of the word and do not represent the true faith..

i acknowledge that the decievers of truth are base level contributors of pain and suffering... this is truth as i see it...

I think I have learned more and felt more comfortable in this thread than ever in church.thanks all

my thoughts spelling and organization of them are scattered and I can not help this
but do try my best

I hope perna as you mentioned in your post
this is not a negative reflection on my character to you
sorry..if it is..if feel I can read and comprehend well enough to understand what most say though

Kathy...I see this type of race discrimination all the time here in the south...though religious discrimination is the biggest type now of days imo

IMO Jesus must have been more dark than white to hide in Eygpt...I am white though..but mentioning this really makes
most white chritians I am around MAD. I have done it just for fun though once or twice to holy rollers I knew would take offence...probably should'nt of though.

I guess the word Apostate used by christians...is the most discriminatory word in religion to me...showing how controling men have become of men

As Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (1807-1882) said:

"I heard the bells on Christmas Day
Their old familiar carols play,
And wild and sweet
The words repeat
Of peace on earth, good-will to men!

And thought how, as the day had come,
The belfries of all Christendom
Had rolled along
The unbroken song
Of peace on earth, good-will to men!

Till, ringing, singing on its way,
The world revolved from night to day,
A voice, a chime
A chant sublime
Of peace on earth, good-will to men!

Then from each black accursed mouth
The cannon thundered in the South,
And with the sound
The carols drowned
Of peace on earth, good-will to men!

It was as if an earthquake rent
The hearth-stones of a continent,
And made forlorn
The households born
Of peace on earth, good-will to men!

And in despair I bowed my head;
"There is no peace on earth," I said;
"For hate is strong,
And mocks the song
Of peace on earth, good-will to men!"

Then pealed the bells more loud and deep:
"God is not dead; nor doth he sleep!
The Wrong shall fail,
The Right prevail,
With peace on earth, good-will to men!"

I didn't do/start/want it, "they" did.

thank you Perna... cause for reflection...

thank you 1oxbowgirl, coralproper.... all...

Thank You God... best wishes and prayers for all...

(((smiles)))

i would like this thread to make an upswing and speak of the positivity in Gods' word...

the hope and compassion of God... of the nameless One that exists in all things, watches alll things, loves all things..

a Creator whom at times appears presentless but is always present..

One who is nearly unfathomable, whose wisdom and mercy and obliqueness defies our human understandings...

Who will be for all eternity and will be present when the last atom snuffs out and will echo through canyons of time until time itself ceases to be and longer still...

there is no end of God in sight... there is little we understand about this vast universe... we still dont know if we are an isolated natural accident, or others are out there and we just cant see ...

with so many unknowns, a few good beliefs are good to hold onto...

Bless All..

Perna... should i ask what "I didn't do/start/want it, "they" did." means? : )