God, Archtypes, and Jungian Psychology

i assume from your response that you agree, Superiority creeds or master races are harmful?

i think its likely true that Jung did consult with Hitler.. same time period, same location.. influential people mingle... in our own time Presidents entertain dignitaries from all over.. politics is an entangled net... i could easily reference many scandolous meetings of leaders and characters..

the Chinese have been known to consult astrologers... leaders of men have consulted runes, stars, dowsers, psychics, spiritual counselors since the dawn of time..

that Hitler consulted with Jung or did not does little to influence me in any way.. lets' note that as a scandolous character, Hitler surpasses Jung in fact and deed... Hitler digressed into a terrible mania in comparison to Jungs' more positive contributions, imo ...

what iam talking about is an entire movemnt of scandal and decietfulness... a hypnosis on mass scale.... Hitler.. and other, current movements, which claim exclusivity and superiority... holding acceptance open by the narrowest of margins, and evil, ulterior intentions.... perhaps those followers themselves have been decieved?

whatever the explanation, the results are the same when followed to full course ...

1oxbowgirl, i hope you dont mind my saying, no offense intended... are you trying to slur Jung? save time... many men have had scandolous pasts and remained leaders in their fields.. no human is perfect... including Jung..

we are all caught in the crossroads of history..

No that is not my intent. As I said before I would tell of my research, but if in doing so you take it as a personal attack on your faith, then I will stop posting here. I too had an interest in the Jungian psychology, until researching all the facts opened my eyes to what it was all about. I was just trying to share what I had uncovered. Sorry I offended you.

((((1oxbowgirl)))) i would love it if you stayed in the thread.. honestly ...

source: www.answers.com/topic/archetype

from Oxford University Press ...

"archetype

archetype [ar-ki-typ], a symbol, theme, setting, or character type that recurs in different times and places in myth, literature, folklore, dreams, and rituals so frequently or prominently as to suggest (to certain speculative psychologists and critics) that it embodies some essential element of ‘universal’ human experience. Examples offered by the advocates of myth criticism include such recurrent symbols as the rose, the serpent, and the sun; common themes like love, death, and conflict; mythical settings like the paradisal garden; stock characters like the femme fatale, the hero, and the magician; and some basic patterns of action and plot such as the quest, the descent to the underworld, or the feud. The most fundamental of these patterns is often said to be that of death and rebirth, reflecting the natural cycle of the seasons: the Canadian critic Northrop Frye put forward an influential model of literature based on this proposition in Anatomy of Criticism (1957). Archetypal criticism originated in the early 20th century from the speculations of the British anthropologist J. G. Frazer in The Golden Bough (1890–1915)—a comparative study of mythologies—and from those of the Swiss psychologist C. G. Jung, who in the 1920s proposed that certain symbols in dreams and myths were residues of ancestral memory preserved in the collective unconscious. More recently, critics have been wary of the reductionism involved in the application of such unverified hypotheses to literary works, and more alert to the cultural differences that the archetypal approach often overlooks in its search for universals."
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if this is true, as people, we use these images sub-conconsciously in our daily activites...

the associated emotions releative to each archetypes character are basic emotions we carry, there but not conciously considered... a set of prior thoughts and examinations with rooted foundations manifesting themselves in our personality and fully present in our interations with others...

many actors are capable of portraying several archtypes.. some report the role being more natural than their own personalities.. could the reason for this be because of the implanted archetype characters having been so implanted, that literally, the role is second nature?

the stories of centuries past may be implanted on our memory at birth through geneology...

it would explain child prodigies... past life memories perhaps ... children who recall historical, factual events but have had no exposure to anything relative to the memory..

as some part of our parents seed, not only flesh and bone, but, the memories, the knowledge, and the emotions are passed onward to the following generation, why not the memory of Archetypes?

with each generation the mind of a particular, more exposed parent would have larger resources of memories, knowledge, emotions...

some children could perhaps be born with encyclopaedic knowledge.. explaining exceptional children...

children may be born primed for certain vocations due to these past influences... if the child were not given opportunity to fulfill these base, natural tendencies, he/she may feel the effects of depression brought on by missed connections/opportunities...

a child may have exceptional talent in music due to family histories.. not always presented from one generation to the next, but, skipping an indeterminate number of generations only to re-appear in full blossom many generations later...

we begin telling our children stories from birth forward... aren't we teaching them archetypes? as adults, doesnt this education by media continue throughout our whole life?

are all of us, now carrying these hidden sources of self-empowerment? waiting to enlighten and encourage, if only we became more aware of their presence and their influence in our everyday life, and in extension, our current world and world conditions?

ive spent time exploring these concepts, and these are my thoughts and questions...

i'm grateful for others additions...

This is another person's opinion and reasoning on the aspects of Jungian Psychology. It is just a reference point.
http://theconstructivecurmudgeon.blo...ng-beware.html

Since this topic deals with either psychology or religion, and it is hard to find psychology sites that discuss the topic in a manner that can be easily understood by the most people. That leaves mostly religious sites that may have a view that seems slanted, but not really as they only give opposing views. If we can keep this in that prospective, without attacking each other's opinions, but only referring to an article in question then I think we can continue to have a fairly good discussion on this matter. Otherwise, I will let the rest of you continue on without me.

I am reading what you both post with interest

From your same source NW....

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
In Jungian psychology, an inherited pattern of thought or symbolic imagery derived from the past collective experience and present in the individual unconscious.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Thought I'd highlight that since the discussion seems to centre around Jung's interpretation of archetypes.

Hi everyone... nice to be back with you again, catching up on the conversation. Hope you have all had a wonderful Christmas day.... able to spend time with family and touch people with your love.

The quotes and links made for some interesting reading. I'm not familar with Jung so this has all been enlightening for me to read and consider.

I process new information visually and organically. That is to say 'I feel and picture' what I read. It's how I put new information into a context I can relate to so that I can remember what I read. In Jungian terms perhaps I'm filtering it through my own collective unconsious to hear when and where it rings true for me. I only say this to preface how I respond to the definition from a feeling, seeing perspective.....

I feel archtype being defined as a 'mood'... changing, adapting, reacting. As I read on... essential elements of universal human experience....the moods responding within familar/basic norms -- knowledge bases, comfort zones, discomfort zones, spiritual comprehensions. Mood triggered by experiences, triggering other responses. In or out of norms -- social, political, spiritual, religious....

I read further.... patterns of death and rebirth.... natural cycles of the seasons.... my interest peeks since its fitting my own patterned thinking.... my own spiritual journey teaching me about the circle -- balance, wholeness, renewal, reinvention, redemption. My own journey with mental illness. Death and rebirth. Faith the depression will pass. Faith the mania won't get out of hand. The balance will always be restored. New beginnings, new passion, new determination, new hope... renewed faith.

I read on..... symbols in dreams and myths... residues of ancestral memory preserved in the collective unconscious. I acknowledge this understanding..... but I'd include other collections and connections that I see combining in my unconscious.... spirit guides and angel messangers... visions, callings, revelations.... any manifestation of God and his kingdom that visits me, touches me, comforts me, directs me... steers my thoughts, my actions, my prayers. All that is within the circle, the core, the heart of my existance. Whatever is true. I think this is a universal craving that unites all of creation. To live in peace and harmony one with another. This takes death of things that tear down and rebirth of things that build up the light that comes only from the kinddom of God... the God of all that is and was and will ever be.

I think I hear what you are saying NW... the workings of the sub-conscious in our lives. Interesting examples you contemplated.... the genetic factor played out in human talents, aptitudes and interests. Experts say much of mental illness is genetic. Study the question of nature versus nurture. Genetics versus environment. Sub-conscious, conscious. Past life, current life, spirit life..... measured time of the human life span.... timelessness of the eternal spirit.

My question would be if genetically influenced, and sub-consciously influenced how does this impact an individual's mental welless? How does one reconcile with the negative sub-conscious triggers when they threaten one's wellness? It can be useful to understand that the unhealthy symptoms of my illness are in some instances inherited, other instances experienced, still other times a combination of both influences on my present day life. I question how does one draw fron this understanding to apply life enhancing self care and make life affirming choices. Change distructive thinking patterns... modify unhealthy behaviours.

Philosophy, religion, psychology... all very interesting... but how do they contribute to or contaminate my recovery. How do I process the learning into life altering decision making. That remains my pursuit. I rest in the Love of my Creator as I take steps to greater understanding.

Thanks for the post NW.... it gave me a wonderful chance to think and make new connections in my own understandings. Not everything fits for me but all facilitates greater understanding. It raises my faith and expands my appreciation for God's glory and supremacy.

(((chocolatelover))) its good to have you back (((smiles)))

((((1oxbowgirl)))) ... Coral ... glad you're still with us... still a public discussion everyone.. thanks for staying with us...

a few comments i wanted to make..

from the above Oxford Press quote:

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
More recently, critics have been wary of the reductionism involved in the application of such unverified hypotheses to literary works, and more alert to the cultural differences that the archetypal approach often overlooks in its search for universals."

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

i believe that anyone following a Jungian path should consider the gravity of this statement... "stereotyping" ... universally accepted as a not so good thing..

in my path ive done my best to avoid labelling and categorizing and i find myself continuously backstepping to avoid this pitfall.. archetypes are exactly that however, "types" ... and it is, imo, best kept in mind that we each are unique individuals and typifying does need regular maintenance checks...

the oxford quote establishes a distinction between archetypes as individual characters and thematic archetyping ...

both are subject to the ambiguity of generalization and stereotyping... a "path" may be archetypical, but the individual is unique, only using the archtype forms as "guides" ...

in regards to 1oxbows cautions... they need to be heeded... no question... its important that the full volume of information about a subject is made available to a searcher... in no way would i reccommend wreckless spiritual endeavor...

one thing ive kept in mind, and not everyone is like me, so, it may not work ... i believe Spirit never gives more than i can handle... that's not to say i'm given little to work with... i get as much as i can handle... just how ive been about it myself.. like Jung.. pushing the envelope...

in the therapuetic process one is always given "homework" .. in traditional therapy, that amount is measured by the patient and therapist.. if self-searching, one needs to know their own limits.. the dark side is very dark... most of us know and understand that...

i think most of us have tried to avoid entering the dark places where our fears and memories are... it hurts there.. we dont want that, we want good stuff instead..

but, for me, i had to go thru the dark stuff... no going around it.. it wouldnt get out of my way...

even though i did do traditional therapy, when alone, i still worked on the pervasive inner turmoil... it was ever present... i couldnt escape it...

i had to keep looking for a way to heal... it wasnt a part time job or something i needed to do to keep myself busy... i had no choice... everywhere i looked was another idea to try... from everyplace i took a little piece of something that somehow gave me 5 minutes of peace...

ive kept all these ideas in a bag in my mind for 29 years... they're still there and i still need them...

Jung is part of that bag...

need a break... more later.... thanks everyone....

sorry for the delay everyone... still working on responses ...

drifted back for a moment to the question "where is God?"

for me, God, God Spirit, is omnipresent... It lives everywhere... in me, outside me, in all things material and immaterial...

a light i envision, that i can envision standing within, but, mostly, a light that shines through ... i feel God Spirit in me as it passes through me ... i don't have to understand it intellectually, but, i try ...(doh!) (((smiles)))

Good morning everyone... had company these past few days and wasnt able to reply properly..

(((1oxbowgirl))) i will respond to you first...

source: http://theconstructivecurmudgeon.blo...ng-beware.html

ive been unable to determine Groothuis' qualifications in this field. Apparantly a member of the Christian faith, a personal blog wouldnt have been considered a reliable source during the time i spent in college, but i will
go ahead and work with it the best i can..

Title: Carl Jung Beware

begins the article with a personal experience. unverifiable. opinionation and no support. he admits no formal education in
psychology, psychiatry, or psychology but because of his Christian beliefs and some knowledge about Jungian thought feels qualified to counsel a complete stranger relative to her therapy needs..

states Groothius: "I accept the legitimacy and importance of integrating a thoroughly Christian world view with psychological insights."

Mr. Groothius sees no issue with integrating a non scientific theology which HE accepts as truth into the complicated medicine of brain examination but rejects those he cannot personally
believe in...

He has no issue whatever in inserting his personal viewpoints into this "unbiased" review..

".. I have repeatedly found Carl Jung to be a fountainhead of all manner of spiritual aberrations..."

excerpt:

"Many Christians are attracted to Jung because of his recognition of the spiritual nature of the human condition. While atheists such as Freud, B.F. Skinner, and Albert Ellis offer no solace for a soul they do not believe exists, Jung delves deeply and sympathetically into a variety of spiritual topics. When asked in a BBC interview if he believed in God, Jung replied, “I don’t believe--I know.” Many Christians hope that Jung may provide a fruitful model for the elusive integration of psychology and spirituality"

In this statement, Groothius finds cause to support Jungian thought. He finds the theory of spirituality to be an important element in relation to mental and psychologocal healing (we are still left to wonder of his credentials) and selects Jungian theory as a vehicle to his means
except one catch... the spirituality in question is not Christianity..

one can conclude the only acceptable spirituality is going to be Christianity...

in the following statement Groothius uses the argument that Christians can "allow" non -Christians to contribute to the field of mental health, but due to those individuals not being of the Christian faith, most likely, said contributions are to be questioned or disqualified simply because the ideas originate from non-believers... apparantly, according to Groothius, only the Christians know best...

"Unbelievers may have legitimate psychological insights that do not violate Christian truth and which bear good fruit in the counseling situation. Just as God gives rain to the righteous and righteous (Matthew 5:45) through his common (non-saving) grace, so God allows non-Christian thinkers insights into human psychology. However, when a theorist’s views are incorrigibly enmeshed in a world view that radically opposed Christianity, these views are incompatible with Christian thought--whether in psychology, psychiatry, or any other discipline."

Groothius offers some history of Jung that i find interesting although i have to wonder about factual basis given his (Groothius) penchant for opinionation and biased Christian views...

Groothius' motivation can be summed up in this quote:

"Given Jung’s background, it is not surprising that his major theoretical claims have little if anything to contribute to a Christian model for psychology and counseling."

deduction: non Christian, non acceptable.... clearly only a Christian Theology is acceptable as a spiritual compliment to mental health service in Groothius' eyes...

he goes on to say: "He (Jung) rejects the Christian view that God is outside of us and has the authority both to redeem us and command us."

how dare someone think outside the "box" of Christianity! IMO, Jung teaches of transcendence (self-empowerment) versus
salvation (other empowerment) as in Christianity ... transcendence comes from a more powerful place than its meeker "seeking salvation" 'from outside the self' counterpart (as in Christianity). Could this explain why Christians are threatened by Jung? Is it improper (a sin) to seek peace and sanity as an individual and outside Christianity? For some it seems so...

the following statement expresses the Christian need for "other" validation, and attempts to highlight an
opposition in folowers of Jungian thought...

"Because Jung rejects the authority of a personal God outside of the individual, he can only look within for redemption."

again, the reader is to assume that the "only" correct thought, is Christian theology..

in reading the article i am disturbed that the entire basis for rejection of Jungs' ideas appears based on the viewpoint of its (Jungs') non Christian foundation...

Groothius suggests that self-examination of human personality is only acceptable by the Christian
standard... that examination of thoughts not of Christian origin is an evil ...

what follows is that to have thoughts of non Christian origin is evil...

Groothius then appears to state that evil is un Christian and therefore should not be examined in any way (unless supported by a Christian authority I presume) ...

"Responsible Christian therapy sensitively challenges the conscience of the client according to scriptural realities. Christ challenges us to get to the root of our sin and uproot it if we are to be his disciples (Matthew 5:29-30). Jesus also offers pardon for those who confess their sins and trust in his loving forgiveness (1 John 1:8-10)."

one is left to deduce that non Christian thoughts are evil and by extension, the individual is evil, and salvation is as near as the nearest Christian authority.. how convenient...

Goothius seems to be saying something similar to the old time medicine show people... First, i'll tell you what ails you (didnt know you had an illness now did you?) ... and then, I'll tell you how to relieve it... (and only the one remedy is available) ...

IMO .. another be all/end all scenario... kinda like working for the company store... on payday, take your check to accounting to reconcile your living expenses and leave with enough cash to get to the job til next payday... a self perpetuating cycle...

according to Groothius: "Jungian visualization requires the suspension of rational judgment to facilitate the formation of inner images. Such occult and irrational elements in Jungian therapy should give pause to any Christian counselor who believes that Jungian visualization practices can be healing to the soul."

beware Christians and non Christians... imagination is now unacceptable...

(((1oxbowgirl))) I have had a similar experience finding documentable sources.. this is in part due, as you mentioned earlier in the discussion, to Jungianism being a "new" theory and as such is still in creative form..

Hi 1oxbowgirl.... I read your reference with interest. I was immediate struck with the viewpoint expressed that Jung was not a believer. Yet in his own words Jung claimed differently. From the little I've read to date on Jung that doesn't seem to be a fair assessment to be making. I get more the impression that he was a believer who wanted to experience a deep spiritual connection to God through greater spiritual enlightenment. To transcend doctrine to secure a personal relationship with God that engaged his own spiritual essence.

I also puzzle over the issue of God being outside of us versus inside of us. I experience God as being everywhere and as being all powerful ...omnipresent and omnipotent... Christian expressions of the Godhead. I don't understand this discrepency around the question of 'where is God'.

Is it really a question of authority that is being discussed? Is there evidence Jung has taking God from the top position of authority over all matters of Creation? I haven't seen that come through in any Jung writings or in his expressions of the spiritual nature of the human experience. Can you enlighten me as to the root of this controvercy. What am I missing?

I do appreciate that Jung represents and connects with those among us who search deeply for spiritual enlightenment. Who aren't satisfied with only one cultural or religious expression of God's authority and greatness over all of creation. Who expect to find God everywhere. Who anticipate a greater knowing of God's love and intentions by aligning with God's spirit and words.

I have discovered in my own journey that wanting more from my relationship with God gives me cause to explore and to question and to seek more from every source for new truth and enlightenment. More than what I already understand. More of what I already feel. More of a relationship with God. More of God in the centre of my life. Seek more God in my life motivates me to want to know God more deeply, more intimately, more completely. That I might be a better vessel for God's love. That I might be more balanced and whole. That I might be useful to the world in which I live. That I might love as God loves and carry on the gifts of my own life experience and those of my ancestors for all future generations for all time. The continuum of life that weaves me into God's divine plan.

I don't have any comment about the subject of evil or the devil characters, fallen angels and such. Its one of those topics that are so clouded by 'hollywood' and mythical fiction to make it a difficult topic to discuss without offending someone or being misinterpretted. In my culture and in many other ancient indigenous cultures there are rituals and ceremonies that are misunderstood and misinterpreted. I rely on the gift of discernment to keep me from entering dark places where God is not welcomed. I've seen God in many places and in many ceremonies and rituals that many of my Christian brothers and sisters would consider suspect at best, evil at worst. I respect other views without feeling pressured to conform when lead by my spirit to meet God everywhere.

The collective unconscious question still stumps me. Unlike with most of what Jung has expressed this the one area where I think he stopped short. I feel we are more than our inherited psychic system of collective, universals thoughts and experiences.

I had more comments noted but think I'll leave it there for now. Been an interesting exploration. Thanks everyone.

Real life events had me rushing to end my post earlier and so I didn't really get a chance to offer a closing to my comments.

I just wanted to add that I've gained from this discussion about Jung's ideas and his influences on the world. I've benefited from the blancing of extremes that flowed from the discussions. I relate to the yearning that directed Jung on his journey. I also acknowledge the dangers a jouney like his can encounter. The extremes of searching. The extremes many of us are familiar with in forms of mental illness and such. Any chance Jung was bi-polar.

All in all this discussion has served to humble me and cause me to marvel at God's amazing power and grace.

It gives me cause to pause, to praise and give thanks. There is no fear in God. There is nothing to fear when God is in the centre. All has been handed over to him in awareness of his great power, authority, supremacy, glory. He is the Circle and the Light. God is all and everything at the same time. He is in me, around me, above and beyond me. hummm.... More Tao influences coming out of me since I've been studying those ancient verses.

Did you know that Tao Te Ching, book of wisdom has been translated into more languages in the world than any other volume except the Bible. I'm readying Dr. Wayne Dyer's study of the Tao. I've no previous knowledge of Taoism so I'm enjoying the early recognition of familiar spiritual perspectives. Circle of Life harmony -- medicine wheel teachings from a new direction.

Sorry off-topic again there. Shall say good night now.

I think I have added to this discussion all that I can. The links I gave you starting with the one on page 16, were articles that posed the for and against. The idea being read them and if you learn something from them, thats good. If not then disregard them, but don't pick them to pieces so that someone else cannot learn or form there own opinion about the articles. I think ((Chocolatelover)) learned something that will help her on her journey. If you check and do further reading at innerexplorations, it is mentioned several times that Jung was uncomfortable with Christianity and belief in God. I do not know if he was or was not. I never met him to ask him. It seems we always can find fault with others writings when what they say is different then what we want to believe. But when we put up that wall, we can not learn anything either. I try to read and think about things said, pay attention to the important points and disregard the things I question. That is how we learn new things. If we go at it as only (in my opinion), we lose the battle before we have fought the war. And so do the ones who have followed along behind us.

(((1oxbowgirl))) i'm sorry, i may have misunderstood.. i thought we were doing "point/counterpoint" ... if i'd known you didnt intend to do that i wouldnt have picked ythe article apart like that... my misunderstanding and i hope you will stay and contribute but i respect your choices..

Hi,
Just wanted to say that I'm enjoying this thread. I'm not sure I'm here enough to be able to participate, but I am getting a lot out of reading it. Thanks!

gg

Thanks 1oxbowgirl.... I've really appreciated and learned a lot from your contribution to this discussion. I will go back and read through some more of your links.

At the end of the day my explorations always takes me back to the foundations of God's Word. The Bible and other sacred teachings are my primary sources of reflection. I practice tradtional native ceremonies as well as those of othe religions and beliefs that honour God at the head.

I appreciate that we share a faith in God that surpasses all understanding while providing a personal and collective source of all that is good, true and honourable. How sweet is that! Thanks again 1oxbowgirl for the journey.

Hi everyone... hey GG .. nice of you to say you're reading, at least i know its not just those of us posting who find this interesting... i hope you'll continue to find it worth following.. so many have made great contributions and i'm really grateful to everyone...

i needed to mention that i'll be unavailable til later today.. i will be talking about individual archetpyes in particular a bit, i hope its something you'll be able to find an instant connection to chocolate because of the native ceremonies you've mentioned...

hope you all have a great and wonderful day!

((((1oxbowgirl)))) please consider re-joining the thread.. there was a misunderstanding... i understand that you've researched this subject and i also understand how important you feel it is to participate..

would it be fair if you rebutted my original counterpoint to the Groothier article (if it is uncomfortable for you, perhaps another observer would volunteer to provide the rebuttal) and from then forward, we'd agree to limit personal commentary relative to the articles.. let them speak for themselves, as you mentioned, allowing positive commentary rather than adversarial?

sorry that i assumed we were in a debate... that is against the forum guidelines and i apparantly fell off track.. i cant go back and edit or delete my post and i'm not sure i'd want to... what do you think?

You are correct that debating is against the forum guidelines. I know that many people enjoy a good debate. This is just not the place for it. Because this forum is not for debate, any rebuttals are inappropriate. We need to keep it safe for everyone here.

Thanks,
Rapunzel

If Jungian Psychology, was just another point of view, it could be easily accepted and used. However, my research uncovered much more than that and just a point of view became only the tip of the iceberg. The use of Jungian Psychology, is a use of many different parts of many different eastern religions all wrapped up and packaged up with a mix of hard to understand terms and fancy words making it look like a form of Christianity. It involves the use of mysticism and occult practices. It includes the waking of chakras or Kundalini or also known as the serpent power.
It is awakened by many forms of practice such as: yoga postures, breathing exercises, manta meditation, singing, chanting, alcohol, drugs, transcendental meditation etc... Once awakened this engery cannot be turned off. It is said that if you do not know how to control it within yourself and if you do not understand the depth of it, that you can end up with insanity or even death.
Do you not remember the serpent in the Garden of Eden, and yet when you hear about the serpent power of the chakras, the warning falls on deaf ears. I have personally witnessed the dangers of this practice and so I ask that all of you please be very careful in what you seek, for in the end you might find you have gotten far more than what you bargained for and once you have it there is no going back. The engery is like being plugged into a electrical socket, day & night. It envolves terrible strange feelings and thoughts. It is not something to seek. There are warnings against these practies in the Bible. I hope I have not offended anyone, but there is only one way to tell of the danger, and that is telling it as it really is.

well, to let things balance, i wont make any direct comment regarding your post (((1oxbowgirl)))

i'm feeling a bit spent.. i've been fighting this resistance from the same faction since the thread began... i dont care to force my beliefs on anyone.. especially not after this latest addition...

i'm requesting a show of hands on whether to continue this discussion... i need at least five to post an interest..

Hi NW.... I will raise my hand for more discussion if it is useful for you to continue. I am gaining from the information and the knowledge people have shared. I can balance the views expressed without feeling any need to challenge any of it or cut it off.

I hear what 1oxbowgirl is saying and I am reminded of how dark the dark side can get if left unchecked. I am reminded to always put on the armour of God to protect me from energies that seek to do harm. I need those reminders because I tend to be naive about evil. It doesn't suit me to consider evil and that leaves me vulnerable sometimes.

I hear what you have shared and I have felt how intensely the freedom of searching enriches your relationship with God. I am reminded that God's truth and wisdom is evident in all things and he knows the hearts and cravings of all people.

I think any journey into the unknown, any study of thoughts and approaches that stretch the boundaries of God's Word can be risky business. I think one needs to always tread softly in places where God is not the centre. I think one needs to know their own limits and be willing to keep God at the centre of their searchings. One needs to take special care to protecting themselves at all times. To put on the cloke of prayer and the garments of praise, to walk in purity.

There are things I've read in this discussion about Jung and his approaches to mental welness that cause my spirit to go 'eek' and turn away. There are other ideas that cause me to go 'ahhh' that fits. There are times when I can't read anything that challenges my current understandings and there are times when I can discern with confidence.

So I guess, NW so long as you don't need people to 'give their hearts to Jung' and become 'disciples of Jungian psychology' then the discussion can still have value. I know that isn't your intention because you've expressed many discrepencies with Jung yourself.

I feel as though I walk the same ground with you on this. I hear you proclaiming God as your centre of devine authority.

Perhaps we need reminded of your intentions with this discussion. I've gained from witnessing again how God's truth shines in every space in our universe. Those seeds of truth can be used for good or for bad. One can influence the power of the good even in the 'badest' of circumstances. Clarity can be found in darkness by believers of the true God. I've seen ceremonies in my own culture realign for good because of the work of believers. I've seen medicine people whose gifts had been used to do harm turn their darkness into light.

I'd encourage you to feel free to keep shining new light on things that may or may not be caught in the darkness. Let us gleen the truth or discover the lies that we might not be caught in dillussion but rather brought further into the light with our explorations.

I'm with you NW for as long as you are gaining benefit from the journey. Let's just heed the caution for what it is. Honest, real, grounded in truth and lovely shared to edify and lift us up to be in the light of God's glory.

I'm kind of 'flighty' today and its showing..... peace....

thank you chocolatelover.. your interest inspires me... i believe sincerely that 1oxbowgirl cares about us..

1oxbowgirl, may i ask if you've studied Thomas Merton?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Merton

here is a related link regarding Catholic Mysticism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystical_theology

a book about buddhism i'd read about 20 years ago also mentioned the phenomona 1oxbow describes and gave a caution that the student risks losing his/her place in ascension by dwelling on the supernatural occurences while in meditations..

the books advice was simply, do not dwell...

a similar statement as your own:

chocolatelover said:
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I think any journey into the unknown, any study of thoughts and approaches that stretch the boundaries of God's Word can be risky business. I think one needs to always tread softly in places where God is not the centre. I think one needs to know their own limits and be willing to keep God at the centre of their searchings. One needs to take special care to protecting themselves at all times. To put on the cloke of prayer and the garments of praise, to walk in purity.

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i heeded the advice of the buddhism book .. it was not for many years before it became important in a real life way..

i cant imagine not having experimented and explored with spirituality...

such was the pain inside me that i ached for relief...

i dont want to feel damned for what ticks inside me... i, like you, like anyone i believe, only wish for inner peace... for whatever variety of reasons, we've both sought outside ourselves and simultaneously, looked within...

My hand is raised I second the motion to continue the discussion. I took the risk of losing your friendship to remind you of the dangers. ((Chocolatelover)), thank you for your insight. I do care or I would not have added that post. And ((Nowheretorun)), please my friend keep your eyes open and keep reading and learning. To do so is a gift given to those willing to receive it. I will check out the links you provided. And I will tread softly so as not to offend you, again.