In Memorium - Salem Witch Trials

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KathyM: Sky - the situation with the Muslims in the USA is a good example.

Yes. A very good and very sad example.

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"After 9/11, there has been a lot of looking at us Muslims," Meah said. "This verdict gives us hope. It means our voices can be heard. We can have justice."

-- Quoted from the article KathyM shared


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Jung was illumining the root cause of war itself, which is to be found in the unconscious psyche of humanity. Jung was pointing out the underlying psychological lesson of war, which is that to project the shadow, our darker half, outside of ourselves, is an “inner” act which always results in incredible destruction in the “outer” world.

Shadow projection is itself the unmediated expression, revelation and playing out of the shadow. Shadow projection, the process in which we “demonize” our enemies, entrancing ourselves into believing that “they” are inhumane monsters who need to be destroyed, is the underlying psychological process which, when collectively mobilized, is the high-octane fuel which feeds the human activity of war.

Commenting on the human act of projection, Jung said, “Properly understood, projection is not a voluntary happening; it is something that approaches the conscious mind from “outside,” a kind of sheen on the object, while all the time the subject remains unaware that he himself is the source of light which causes the cat’s eye of the projection to shine.” When we shadow project, we hypnotize ourselves into relating to our own shadow as if it is outside of ourselves. Jung talked about “…the overweening pretensions of the human shadow, which we so gladly project on our fellow man in order to visit our own sins upon him with apparent justification.”

Source: Shadow Projection: The Fuel of War


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Music of the Hour:

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NW: in making this thread, what have i 'projected' about myself?

I know I've certainly dragged a great deal about myself into this conversation. Everything I've spoken of comes from personal experience. I have been guilty of seeing others as my "enemy". I have "hated". I have wanted to do "grave harm" to another. I was one of the "Us" and the other was one of the "Them". Then, I went crazy and saw some things I hadn't wanted to see before, including the role I played in the creation of the very acts I presented myself as opposing.

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Kali was in my shadow. When it became too painful to see the things I did not want to see, she gave me her eyes so I could bear to look. I like to think she still sneaks them into me when I'm not looking.

Source: The Process of Individuation: The Shadow


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It can be helpful to understand that the shadow isn't comprised merely of the unsavory characteristics we might not want to see in ourselves. It also contains a great deal of pain and rage over the things we may have experienced. Disassembling the shadow means that we must come to terms with these parts of ourselves we would rather not own, including our own pain, suffering and desire for revenge. Until these things are removed we can not begin to see clearly and only then, can we begin to understand what justice really looks like.

See also:
[*] The Boundaries of Rage and Forgiveness
[*] The Forgiveness Project

Rapunzel said:
“People have always had a fear of change. They are usually most comfortable with what they know and understand, and differences often threaten our sense of security.”


Another quote from history; “So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.” FDR.

If…during the study of past history…one does not consciously and without prejudice apply what one has learned to the “now”…then as “Sting” once said in song; ”History will teach us nothing.”
You will blindly hold your “history book” aloft as a light…but stumble in the darkness over the projections of your own “shadow“.
My .02...on this 'subject"....
m.b.

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moodyblu: You will blindly hold your “history book” aloft as a light…but stumble in the darkness over the projections of your own “shadow“.

The shadow certain can be difficult to deal with.

Meanwhile, this conversation began as an examination and memorial of a past event and then turned to the realization that this same dynamic still unfolds daily in the relationships between people. It is not necessary to be on a spiritual path to encounter this kind of darkness in others or in ourself, it is enough simply to be human. Still... we can draw on the strength of others who have been there before us.

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If you undertake spiritual practice you willl be confronted by your dark side. This is an axiom. The spiritual quest is dangerous, just as the books say. Seeking truth means experiencing pain and darkness, not just the clear white light.

Practitioners must prepare themselves to deal with the dark underside of life.

This dark side can take many forms. Religious stories personify it in images of devils and dark, angry gods. Buddha, Christ, Mohammed, and virtually every other lesser figure report dealing with the temptations of the "Evil One," prince of the world -- Mara, Satan, lblis. The teaching story of temptation, which occurs before illumination, is more than just another "Hero vanquished Monster" myth -- it is a description of a specific peril of the spiritual path. The Christian and Sufi mystics experienced it more personally, as the obstinate pride and trickery of the ego and the "dark night of the soul." For the modem practitioner the dark nature is even more multi-faceted; our complicated world has many evil faces, and dealing with the dark side has never been more difficult.

Today the dark side is everywhere. We are completely saturated in it. It declares itself in every news broadcast, television show, and tabloid. No one growing up in a society like ours escapes being conditioned by this violence. Every one of us, from the most perfectly civilized to the imprisoned criminal, harbors an inner, festering, neurotic sore, a private shadow of anger, terror, lust, and pain. This shadow, this "dark side," is a miniature copy of the greater darkness of society which manifests in war, oppression, and starvation. We are surrounded, inside and out, by evil and suffering of all description.

When we practice meditation and contemplation the dark side within us is washed to the surface of consciousness by the purifying and energizing effect of these exercises. The ability to deal with these emerging dark impulses is a basic skill which must be mastered by every practitioner. Moral, ethical, and spiritual integrity is required, but accurate practical knowledge is just as important. Without study, our conception of the dark side tends to be a primitive relic of childhood creepie-crawlies and bogeymen. If we attempt to confront our dark side with this programming we are quickly paralyzed. Instead, we must gather reliable information, read books, observe and analyze our personal psychology, and in time develop a more complete picture of the nature of the dark side. An educated and mature attitude toward evil is a necessity for the practitioner.

With study, certain characteristics of the so-called "dark side" become obvious. This darkness is not really a side, or a shadow, or a persona -- it is a tangled web of complex forces, programs, and effects which we repress from ordinary consciousness so that we rarely see its true nature. It can readily be divided into the following four areas:

(1) the biological dark side;
(2) the cosmological dark side;
(3) the cultural dark side; and
(4) the personal dark side.


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Those who are so inclined can find the full article here: Meeting Darkness on the Path

See also: [*] Getting Intimate With Fear
[*] Skeleton Woman: The Life/Death/Life Nature

In history, people tended to live in smaller, more uniform cummunities where everyone in that place grew up not too far away, with the same kinds of experiences, education, and beliefs. They looked the same, talked the same, acted very much the same, and also for the most part believed the same. A community only needed one church (or substitute appropriate term for the relevant form of worship/spirituality for that culture), because they for the most part all had the same religion too. It may have never occurred to them that there was any other way to live. It must have been very hard to be open minded about travelers or anyone who was different, with such limited exposure to diversity of any kind.

Now the world has changed, and we travel, and people from the other side of the globe may be our next door neighbors. This gives us so many more choices and opportunities than our ancestors had! It is a wonderful thing that we can sit here and talk to each other here and get to know each other, and physical distance is no barrier. Yet there are still challenges. Most of us want to be comfortable with the differences, but it isn't easy to have enough trust and good will. There is a tendency to assume that our own way is the right way. That was what we were taught, wasn't it? It works for us, right? But if we put ourselves in someone else's place, and they want us to accept what they have learned is the best way, and they don't understand why we cling to our beliefs and ways of doing things, and maybe get irritable about our stubbornness and close-mindedness, then we can start to see the challenges that go both ways.

Most or probably nearly all of us here have good intentions. We want to share, and we want to be accepted and understood. Most of us accept diversity as a good thing, and something that we can all benifit and learn from. But it's just not as easy as it looks.

The best solution to much of the misunderstanding and hurt that has happened throughout the world and throughout history and which continues even now is for people to get to know each other as people, and see how we are more alike than we are different. We need to begin to understand each other and recognize each other's humanity. Most of the time, that is what happens here on these forums, where we are brought together by shared struggles and problems, and we become friends.

I am glad that we have the opportunity to share more of ourselves here. There is more to us than our mental illnesses. We are people, who have lives and cultures and families and beliefs. I believe in being holistic, and I take that term pretty literally. I think that all aspects of how we live our lives are very important.

One thing that is a challenge for all of us at one time or another is to open up our thinking enough to look from someone else's perspective. It is easy to see ourselves as victims. Many of us have been victims far too much, and we have learned to defend ourselves to try to keep from being hurt again. It isn't so easy to see how our defenses might affect someone else who also has been a victim, and now may feel victimized by our actions or words. That is the kind of thinking shift that needs to happen though. Imagine the difference it would make in the world if everyone were able to shift freely from a narrow perspective of themselves as a victim to themselves wielding power that they can choose to use to heal rather than destroy. I know it is idealistic, but I keep hoping that maybe we can start here. And I think that we have.

Rapunzel said: "One thing that is a challenge for all of us at one time or another is to open up our thinkin enough to look from someone else's perspective."
I agree with your post whole heartedly!

There is another good word for that....it's simple called "empathy".
Not telling someone what you know from your "ego's" experience...but just trying to deeply feel what the other person feels like. How it is to be "them".
Sounds simple doesn't it? Hmmm.....let's try that...shall we?
m.b.

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moodybu: Not telling someone what you know from your "ego's" experience...but just trying to deeply feel what the other person feels like. How it is to be "them".
Sounds simple doesn't it? Hmmm.....let's try that...shall we?

Do you find my references to "ego" to be off-putting, moodyblu? It's okay if you do -- sometimes others do as well.

I have a tendency to speak from my own experience and that includes ego collapse/fragmentation so I use those terms quite a bit. As a result of that experience, I can sometimes have difficulties with ego boundaries as well -- lack of empathy is seldom my problem although sometimes, too much empathy is. I've had to relearn what boundaries are since then.

For me, it's helpful to put those boundaries into place, sometimes by using words like "ego" and "psyche". I am talking about "me" when I do so; but I'm also talking about "us". There is both a personal experience and a collective experience. But if my terms don't fit for you, feel free to use whatever does.

hi all.. its a sorry excuse, but i am so busy at work right now i cant put the time into this thread i think it deserves... im hoping that all will stay the course and remember the reason why we are here... to support and encourage each other towards healthy and wholesome healing.. there has been a lot of great input on this and i can see great progress...

im praying we remember that we are all together in the current situation that is a real crisis in our world and hope that we will do our best to respect each other now

nothing is sadder imo than a group of God loving people who attack each other over the very things they purport to believe in...

not pointing fingers or blaming.. just hoping to add more later..

thanks everyone...

"Do you find my references to "ego" to be off-putting, moodyblu? It's okay if you do -- sometimes others do as well. ..Spiritual Emergency."

I was really not refering to anything you said ..or "terms" you had used directly....I was merely making a statement of related importance.
If you prefer that "ego" means "us"...or "all" I'm cool with that!
I'll not let my sudden "apparition" throw you off.

onward with the thread....stay your course....
m.b.

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moodyblu: I was really not refering to anything you said ..or "terms" you had used directly....I was merely making a statement of related importance.
If you prefer that "ego" means "us"...or "all" I'm cool with that!

There's never harm in clarifying what's said. Most of what I might have to say about the ego can be found in the schizophrenia topic and that's usually where I can be found, but discussion of "the shadow" is very relevant to this topic. Clearly, you have some experience with that as well.

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He was beginning to emerge from the dark defile. In truth, he had already come through it more than once, and would come out of it again. Treatises devoted to the soul’s ordeal were mistaken in assigning successive phases to that adventure: on the contrary, all its phases were intermingled; everything was subject to infinite restatement and repetition. The soul turned about in a circle in its quest.

Long ago, in Basel, and in many other places, he had passed through this same long night. The same verities had been learned and relearned several times. But the experience was cumulative: the pace gradually became surer; the eye could see farther through certain shadows; the mind was at least becoming aware of certain laws.

Like a man who is climbing, or perhaps descending, a mountainside, he was rising or ascending in place; at best, at each turning the same abyss would open below him, sometimes on the right, sometimes at his left. The gain in actual ascent was measurable only as the air became more rarefied, and as new peaks appeared behind those which had seemed to bar the horizon.

But the notion of ascension or descent was wrong, for stars burn below as on high; he was neither at the bottom of the gulf nor at its center. The abyss was both beyond the celestial sphere and within the human skull. Everything seemed to be taking place within an infinite series of curves closing in on themselves.

--The Abyss, Marguerite Yourcenar

Source: Melancholy & Spirituality


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onward with the thread....stay your course....

I'm glad you decided to join us. It's a "darker" topic than many others here and perhaps won't sit easily with everyone for that reason, but everyone's certainly welcome.

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Rapunzel said:
The best solution to much of the misunderstanding and hurt that has happened throughout the world and throughout history and which continues even now is for people to get to know each other as people, and see how we are more alike than we are different. We need to begin to understand each other and recognize each other's humanity. Most of the time, that is what happens here on these forums, where we are brought together by shared struggles and problems, and we become friends.

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I agree Rap

For over ten years, I worked for a pediatrician who was the head of the pediatric residency program. I raised pediatricians for a living, lol. As a white American, I was very much a minority among my co-workers. We had people from all walks of life, from every corner of the world - various cultures and races working together for a common cause. We had to deal with a lot of life and death situations, so we became very close with each other. We laughed and cried together, and even fought with each other. Our differences didn't matter - over time they were merely identifying features. We were close with each other because we shared the same passion for the children - who also came from all walks of life.

I wonder sometimes if people really do care for children, or if it's just a slogan. If we did, we (adults) wouldn't be fighting so much with each other, and we'd take better care of the environment. We would serve as examples to our children. As it is now, it looks like we're leaving them an awful mess to clean up.

spiritual_emergency said:

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It can be helpful to understand that the shadow isn't comprised merely of the unsavory characteristics we might not want to see in ourselves. It also contains a great deal of pain and rage over the things we may have experienced.

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i can relate to that s_e ... what is beyond me will pass thru me in the way of experiences.... i may never have visited a (popular brand name department store here) in Hong Kong.. but, i have known Chinese people.... and i've been to the local (depart store name here) within the USA.... so, in my mind, there is some relational experience of something i've never actually experienced in first person...

moodyblu said:

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You will blindly hold your “history book” aloft as a light…but stumble in the darkness over the projections of your own “shadow“.
My .02...on this 'subject"....
m.b.

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beautifully said moodyblu....

Rapunzel said:

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One thing that is a challenge for all of us at one time or another is to open up our thinking enough to look from someone else's perspective. It is easy to see ourselves as victims. Many of us have been victims far too much, and we have learned to defend ourselves to try to keep from being hurt again. It isn't so easy to see how our defenses might affect someone else who also has been a victim, and now may feel victimized by our actions or words. That is the kind of thinking shift that needs to happen though. Imagine the difference it would make in the world if everyone were able to shift freely from a narrow perspective of themselves as a victim to themselves wielding power that they can choose to use to heal rather than destroy. I know it is idealistic, but I keep hoping that maybe we can start here. And I think that we have.

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i believe you are talking about seeing ourselves as connected... as in a global community.... and able to empower ourselves... sure, it takes work and time, but, is it really impossible?

then moodyblu said:

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There is another good word for that....it's simple called "empathy".

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once again.. i like that moodyblu : )

s_e said:

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I have a tendency to speak from my own experience and that includes ego collapse/fragmentation so I use those terms quite a bit. As a result of that experience, I can sometimes have difficulties with ego boundaries as well -- lack of empathy is seldom my problem although sometimes, too much empathy is. I've had to relearn what boundaries are since then.

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empathetic ego boundaries? .. i like the idea.. you were also the one s_e who had contributed 'respectful regard for others' into a thread at one time... i like the ideas...

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I'm glad you decided to join us. It's a "darker" topic than many others here and perhaps won't sit easily with everyone for that reason, but everyone's certainly welcome.

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certainly its dark.... to me it feels like the social and environmental conditions are on a collision course... necessitating conversations such as these more than ever...

KathyM said:

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I wonder sometimes if people really do care for children, or if it's just a slogan. If we did, we (adults) wouldn't be fighting so much with each other, and we'd take better care of the environment. We would serve as examples to our children. As it is now, it looks like we're leaving them an awful mess to clean up.

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someone had to say that Kathy... thank you.... well... the question now becomes... are we the adults?

muffy said:

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no one should ever look away..........................
As I have said over and over we all matter
I know you think that too......

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KathyM said:

Coral, I hope you enjoy the bah mitzvah

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thanxs kathy, the party was a blast

it was a little hard keeping up with the songs during Temple though that morning, since they all sang in Hebrew and I am not as well versed yet

had a very long lesson on Jewish culture and religion last night, that was also great, btw, they condem no one for their beliefs and believe in the same God as the rest of us

wasn't able to read all these replys in detail tonight, since I just rolled in but, will in the morning

welcome back coral

thanxs, we had alot of fun...... but its good to be home