[costello]

Originally Posted by fishsandwich

Then you could make a ton of money by appearing on those faux-documentaries they make about the super-morbidly obese, then go on The Biggest Loser and win the millions. It's the American dream, if I understand correctly.

lol... But all of that activity would disrupt my humors and force me to exert unnecessary energy and deplete my food fun joy.

I tried the South Beach diet, actually -- when I was fat. It did nothing, but I was on the drugs at the time and this I would have noticed neither health effects nor weight loss. I remember there being quite a bit of grain, actually. Certainly not less grain than I would normally eat.

There's a woman on the other forum who lost quite a bit of weight on South Beach and maintained the loss. She swears by it. In fact she's a bit of a bore. The it-worked-for-me-so-it-will-work-for-everyone type.

I'm going to eat clean for a while (well, there were croutons in my salad tonight), then experiment with adding in various grains one at a time.

Why do they say to limit caffeine?

She's big on adrenal fatigue, stress hormones, cortisol. Somehow caffeine tortures your adrenal glands? I don't know.

Do you do this? I have to say it appeals to me, but I'm not sure if that's because it's a fad.

I have tried IF. I've tried the version where you don't eat every other day - for 24 hours at a time. So let's say you finish eating at 7 pm Sunday. You resume eating at 7 pm Monday. Then eat until Tuesday evening, stop until Wednesday evening when you resume. Stop on Thursday evening and resume Friday evening. So you get three 24 hour fasts in the week. Of course, you could just do one or two fasts a week.

I've also tried the other variant, called 19/5 or 20/4, where you only eat in the 4 or 5 hour window and fast the rest of the day.

My only interest in IF was losing weight, and it didn't help with that. I was cold during the fasting periods. It takes a while to adjust to it, but it can be done.

There's a guy named (I think) Mark Mattson at NIH who does research in this area. But you know, fish, it's supposed (theoretically) to extend your life span. That's why most people get excited about it. In mice it increases the life span substantially - almost as much as calorie restriction, but without restricting calories (the mice eat enough in their non-fasting times to make up for the calories they missed). The idea is that it reduces insulin levels and gives your pancreas a rest.

Anyway look up Mark Mattson if you want to see some of the research.

Somehow I get the feeling bacon is not involved :'

Bacon is ok on IF, paleo, and any of the low carb diets I'm familiar with. You shouldn't live on it, because it's a processed food, but it's not verboten.

[fishsandwich]

Thanks for this!!

Originally Posted by costello

There's a woman on the other forum who lost quite a bit of weight on South Beach and maintained the loss. She swears by it. In fact she's a bit of a bore. The it-worked-for-me-so-it-will-work-for-everyone type.

I'm always a bit suspicious of people who swear by any particular branded diet. Most people eat so poorly that they will lose weight on almost ANY regimented eating system . . . witness: that guy at Subway, Jared or whatever. I believe somebody also tried it at McDonald's. McD's and Subway are hardly "healthy eating" at its finest.

Originally Posted by costello

I'm going to eat clean for a while (well, there were croutons in my salad tonight), then experiment with adding in various grains one at a time.

Originally Posted by costello

She's big on adrenal fatigue, stress hormones, cortisol. Somehow caffeine tortures your adrenal glands? I don't know.

If caffeine is torture, then it must be that kind of self-flagellating religious torture that brings extreme pleasure and connexion with a Higher Power.

Originally Posted by costello

I have tried IF. I've tried the version where you don't eat every other day - for 24 hours at a time. So let's say you finish eating at 7 pm Sunday. You resume eating at 7 pm Monday. Then eat until Tuesday evening, stop until Wednesday evening when you resume. Stop on Thursday evening and resume Friday evening. So you get three 24 hour fasts in the week. Of course, you could just do one or two fasts a week.

That sounds unmanageable when one has to cope with a job/etc. Was it?

Originally Posted by costello

There's a guy named (I think) Mark Mattson at NIH who does research in this area. But you know, fish, it's supposed (theoretically) to extend your life span. That's why most people get excited about it. In mice it increases the life span substantially - almost as much as calorie restriction, but without restricting calories (the mice eat enough in their non-fasting times to make up for the calories they missed). The idea is that it reduces insulin levels and gives your pancreas a rest.

Oh, I've been hearing lots of things lately about severe caloric restriction increasing life span.

Originally Posted by costello

Bacon is ok on IF, paleo, and any of the low carb diets I'm familiar with. You shouldn't live on it, because it's a processed food, but it's not verboten.

I wouldn't live on it, I was just dreaming of all the amazing foods I could eat if I switched Bacon! Fresh mozzarella (when I'm bad)! Salmon! Scallops! Filtered yoghurt!!!!

I have a few more questions for you:
1. Natural peanut butter/nut butter -- OK?
2. What about soya milk? I imagine rice and oat milk would be a no because they're grains. And, indeed, I imagine coconut milk would be OK as coconut oil appears to be?
I tried googling these things but there is SO MUCH CRAP out there about this, I just got confused. Tell me if I'm annoying you. I'm trying to plan out a week of eating "low carb" to see if it's manageable for me, but I'm noticing most of my foods are going to be pitfalls.

[costello]

Originally Posted by fishsandwich

That sounds unmanageable when one has to cope with a job/etc. Was it?

No. Once you make the adjustment, it's okay. In fact it saves time over the lunch hour.

I wouldn't live on it, I was just dreaming of all the amazing foods I could eat if I switched Bacon! Fresh mozzarella (when I'm bad)! Salmon! Scallops! Filtered yoghurt!!!!

Yeah, I like all of those too.

I have a few more questions for you:
1. Natural peanut butter/nut butter -- OK?
2. What about soya milk? I imagine rice and oat milk would be a no because they're grains. And, indeed, I imagine coconut milk would be OK as coconut oil appears to be?
I tried googling these things but there is SO MUCH CRAP out there about this, I just got confused. Tell me if I'm annoying you. I'm trying to plan out a week of eating "low carb" to see if it's manageable for me, but I'm noticing most of my foods are going to be pitfalls.

Nuts are limited on Atkins. I'm not sure about the other low carb diets. I believe nuts are not allowed during induction, but you can add them in at later stages. Personally I do eat nuts.

Not a huge fan of peanuts, and their omega 6: omega 3 ratio is high. I do eat peanut butter sometimes, though. In fact I was thinking about making a recipe I found for ketogenic peanut butter cookies sometime this week. (Still trying to draw my attention away from the chocolate chip cookies!) My recollection is that it only has peanut butter, butter (?), and sugar (which I substitute an artificial sweetner for). [Ah! It's just hit me. It was someone on this site who gave me that recipe. It was for gluten free, but I swapped out the sugar for AS when I made it.]

As for milk substitutes, I'd guess they're a no-no on most low carb, but it really depends on how low in carbs you really want to go. I'd just check the labels for sugars. Real milk isn't allowed on Atkins. Too much sugar. I just mix half cream, half water, if I need milk. But since I don't eat cereal anymore, I have little use for milk.

I don't mind talking about low carb. Keep in mind, I've been eating low carb for a long time and have adapted it to my preferences and prejudices. As you say, there's a lot of crap info out there, and everyone seems to have an opinion.

Most of what you currently eat will probably be a problem. I see discussions of low carb vegetarian or vegan diets occasionally. Honestly, if you're not willing to eat meat and eggs and things like that, it's not workable.

[costello]

Peanut butter cookie recipe. It has peanut butter, egg, and sugar.

http://forums.psychcentral.com/showp...43&postcount=5

[fishsandwich]

I already eat fish, and I'm not opposed to eggs (and they don't make me ill) I just got out of the habit of eating them as I lived with a strict vegan flatmate for four years.

The more I google, the more I realise that most of what I eat already is OK. I'm still confused about the soya products, but mostly I'll just have to work on taking out all the rice I eat, and find something new for breakfast as I tend to eat porridge. I'm sure that will be easy if I start eating eggs. In fact, I'm going to go buy some tonight!

[fishsandwich]

And I keep hearing about an induction phase -- why is this for? Just for weight loss? Some kind of "detox"? It sounds like something I would fail at, but the other stages look fine. I'm not looking to lose weight, anyway.

[costello]

Originally Posted by fishsandwich

And I keep hearing about an induction phase -- why is this for? Just for weight loss? Some kind of "detox"? It sounds like something I would fail at, but the other stages look fine. I'm not looking to lose weight, anyway.

I think the point of induction is to shift your body into ketosis. It probably also helps with some fast weight loss up front to encourage you to keep going.

[fishsandwich]

Oh, and I don't know if chickpeas fly on this thing, but these are my favourite PB cookies right now:
http://www.texanerin.com/2012/04/gra...late-chip.html

[costello]

Originally Posted by fishsandwich

Oh, and I don't know if chickpeas fly on this thing, but these are my favourite PB cookies right now:
http://www.texanerin.com/2012/04/gra...late-chip.html

I like beans. They aren't low carb, but I eat them occasionally anyway. A lot of the "carb" in them is really fiber not carbohydrate.

The problem with those cookies - for me - is the chocolate chips and the honey.

[fishsandwich]

Yeah, how do you get fibre on this diet? Just from fruit and veg?

I am thinking I may have to eat some carbs still anyway. I'm not sure how much running I could do with no carb-fuel. There are a bunch of fanatics on the Internet saying they were suddenly able to run eleventy billion miles once they went low-carb, but I kind of don't believe them.

[fishsandwich]

So, this is the diet I came up with. I'm going to try it to see if I can manage. It's not especially low-carb, but it's lower-carb than I'm eating right now. Sorry if I'm boring anyone. I'm posting it mostly to motivate myself. It was very hard to come up with meal ideas, actually!!

Day 1 (run day)
1T pb when waking up (before run), breakfast -- omelette w/ tomatoes and mozzarella and herbs, lunch -- dense German rye with avocados smushed on + a salad, dinner -- baked fish and veg. Fruit and nuts for pudding.

Day 2
Might try fasting.

Day 3 (run day)

1T PB before run. Breakfast -- Poached eggs, grilled tomatoes and BACON!!! Lunch - salad w/ fish. Dinner -- tofu in coconut broth with veg.

Day 4 (run day)
1T PB. Omelette with spinach and mushrooms, guacamole. German rye with guacamole and salad. Baked fish and veg. Mango + coconut milk for pudding.

Day 5
Filtered yoghurt with fruit and nuts. Leftover fish + veg. More bacon (finish off the pack) with cauliflower mash and asperge.

Day 6 (run day)
1T PB. Coconut milk with quinoa. This is the day my coworkers go out for lunch, so I imagine I'll get something meaty at the restaurant.

Day 7
Vegetable smoothie (from store in bottles). Will try chicken on a salad, which might make me ill. If not, dins: tofu+veg stir fry with shrimp. This is my best friend's birthday, so there will have to be cake in the evening.

[costello]

Originally Posted by fishsandwich

Yeah, how do you get fibre on this diet? Just from fruit and veg?

There's very little fruit on Atkins. None during induction. Only small amounts of berries after that. Constipation is a common problem for new low carbers, but eventually your body figures it out. Coconut oil gets things moving for some people. Or those "sugar free" candies made with sugar alcohols.

I am thinking I may have to eat some carbs still anyway. I'm not sure how much running I could do with no carb-fuel. There are a bunch of fanatics on the Internet saying they were suddenly able to run eleventy billion miles once they went low-carb, but I kind of don't believe them.

I suspect running requires carbs, although I've seen the types of claims you've mentioned too. A lot of people have what's called the induction flu when they start low carbing. Then a week later they have a burst of energy - when their bodies shift from burning glucose to burning fat. I've never had either one - no flu but no burst of energy either. Our bodies are all a bit different. That's why the hard and fast rules are only a starting point. After that you just have to figure out what works for you. If something makes you feel like crap (after giving your body a chance to adapt), don't do it. Some people claim they can go zero carbs and thrive. I have no energy if I don't get veggies regularly.

Remember, low carb can be defined at different levels. Most people call induction about 20 grams of carb per day (although I don't think Atkins ever put a number on it). But I've seen people call much higher numbers low carb.

[costello]

Originally Posted by fishsandwich

So, this is the diet I came up with. ...

Looks good to me. I'm sure if you posted it on a low carb forum, they'd pick it apart, but it seems very sensible to me.

[fishsandwich]

I'm more concerned about refined sugar/carbs right now than I am about removing every scrap of carbs from my diet. I'm not going to freak out if I eat brown rice or similar. And I really feel great when I eat a lot of veg, so that'll probably never leave. I can't imagine how anyone could live well without veg, there are so many nutrients there.

[fishsandwich]

Originally Posted by costello

Looks good to me. I'm sure if you posted it on a low carb forum, they'd pick it apart, but it seems very sensible to me.

Sensible is what I'm aiming for at the moment.
And I don't think I'd care for that low-carb forum.

[fishsandwich]

Oh, and of course TODAY is the day that my monthly order of porridge oats and brown rice comes from Amazon. OF COURSE.

[coyotetaught]

-looks around-

....

Mind if I pop in? I need to reduce my carbs a LOT. Sugar first though. Then less carbs. Worried about my blood sugar, it can't be good right now. Breakfast for me consists of cereal with sugar and carbs. Lunch is carbs. Dinner? Carbs to the MAX. Sugar snacks all day long.

Not very healthy right now. :c

[fishsandwich]

I need to reduce my sugar too! That's why I'm picking Costello's brain and trying this.

My bar exams MAY have been passed on the power of glucose alone . . .

[costello]

Originally Posted by coyotetaught

Mind if I pop in?

You're welcome!

Sugar first though.

That's a good idea. One at a time. Maybe keep a journal. I remember several years ago a woman on the NAMI bipolar forum gave up sweets. She reported on it daily. It was amazing how much her moods improved and evened out.

I have to say I was also amazed how little note everyone else seemed to take. A few people piped up with "good job" occasionally, but I didn't see anyone else say "me too"!

[fishsandwich]

It's so, so hard to cut out sugar. I've been trying for eons.

Maybe that's why there were no "me too"s!

[costello]

Originally Posted by fishsandwich

It's so, so hard to cut out sugar. I've been trying for eons.

Maybe that's why there were no "me too"s!

Yeah, people really like sugar. And they see it as benign. It's really a liver toxin.

Dr. Robert Lustig's talk

is really instructive. It's also an hour and a half long and gets very technical in places.

[Taonuviel]

A major thing to cut out if you're drinking it is soda-pop. The stuff has absolutely no nutritional value and is no good in regular or diet forms. Once you stop drinking it it will be too sweet for you most likely, too - the only pop I can stand anymore is root beer in a float on occasion.

[fishsandwich]

I've actually never been a pop drinker. I like sparkling water because I like the fizz, but pop just tastes wrong to me. Sometimes I mix sparking water and fresh juice, though, which also has a lot of sugar.

[fishsandwich]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Paleo-Di...9610792&sr=8-4

I bought this book today: The Paleo Diet by Loren Cordain, Ph.D.

I looked at Dr. Atkin's book, too -- but it seems like what the bookstore was stocking were not his actual books, but trend-off of his general philosophy designed to make more money for his brand. I didn't like them.

Anyway, it looks really interesting. It's low-ish carb -- the book says to aim for 20-40g per day. It seems to have lots of suggestions for people (like me) with food intolerances, like to eat goat's milk products instead of cow's milk. It also suggests that people who tend towards vegetarianism because they feel ill when they eat meat should try eating game and organ meats. I had never thought of those things before, but I'm going to try it and see. It also recommends a lot of foods I already eat or like, and has an admittedly small section about endurance athletes. (Which, hey, is better than the majority of diet books out there -- they don't normally target themselves at marathon runners! Ha!)

[costello]

Originally Posted by fishsandwich

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Paleo-Di...9610792&sr=8-4

I bought this book today: The Paleo Diet by Loren Cordain, Ph.D.

I looked at Dr. Atkin's book, too -- but it seems like what the bookstore was stocking were not his actual books, but trend-off of his general philosophy designed to make more money for his brand. I didn't like them.

I have Cordain's book.

Atkins you can pick up for almost nothing at most thrift shops. People buy diet books and other self-help books and then get rid of them. I always wonder, when I see one, if the original owner found it helpful.

I watched Lustig's video (again!) this morning after I recommended it to you. He's convinced me (again!) that sugar is the main problem. Glucose isn't so much. I think I'll keep eating clean for the remainder of the week then experiment with adding back in rice or wheat or potatoes or something. One thing at a time.

Day 3 back on low carb, and I've already dropped a couple of pounds of water weight - and my blood pressure's back down. Yay!