To Fish re: diet/food (from: i would appreciate an opinion)

You might be surprised at how difficult it is to follow Atkins in our food culture too. Everything processed is awash in corn sugar.

Ok, I've started watching this. Two minutes in, he's already irritated me hugely. He characterizes obesity as "diet and exercise" - which is the flawed premise that is driving all of the public health advice and the research in this area - that obesity is the result of eating too much and moving too little. Taubes would say (and I agree) that he has the arrow of causality pointed the wrong way. We don't gain weight because we're eating too much. We eat too much because our body is storing fuel as fat. And it's doing that because of complex metabolic processes which are driven by our food environment.

Ok, now at five minutes in, he's saying that smokers are thinner because ... why? He doesn't say. It doesn't seem to interest him at all. What is happening that makes smokers thinner? Do they exercise more? Seems unlikely. Maybe this guy thinks that smokers satisfy their oral fixation with cigarettes rather that candy?

Within the first five minutes of his talk he mentions something that may blow a hole in his premise that obesity is the result of poor behaviors, and he doesn't seem to even be curious. Does smoking effect fat metabolism in some way? And what does that say about the underlying causes of obesity?

Here's a study from 2001: http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v2.../0801654a.html Nicotine acts directly on the fat cell to break down fats.

Nicotine effects metabolism. As do many antipsychotics. What effects metabolism effects how fuel (food) is partitioned. Is it stored or burned?

The fact that obesity is accompanied by increased rates of certain diseases doesn't mean that obese causes those diseases. I would argue that obesity and those diseases are caused by our tainted food supply. But the political will to say so isn't there because there's much money to be made in certain quarters by maintaining the status quo. In fact if I were a conspiracy theorist (which I'm not) I'm might say the whole thing is a plot. The food and agicultural industries make us sick. Then big pharm gives us drugs.

Telling a fat person to lose weight so he'll be healthier is simply stupid. Every fat person I know wants to be thin. There's plenty of motivation. Being fat is unattractive, uncomfortable, and unhealthy. Furthermore it opens you up to public ridicule and blame. If it were as easy as eating less and moving more, there would be a lot fewer fat people.

You seriously have to read Taubes - Good Calories, Bad Calories. He says the Germans had the whole obesity thing right before World War II. The work they'd done was discarded after the war.

I saw this on facebook yesterday and thought it was very good. Maybe you can get me the original French?

Anyway I think it applies to the research in the area of obesity, just as it does in medicine right now. Too many researchers are funded by big industries that have a financial interest in the outcome of the research. It's always enlightening to see who funds a particular study. We tend not to bite the hand that feeds us. Those people are among those we "are not allowed to criticize."

But you don't have to eat processed food. You do have to eat SOMETHING food, though, and if there is nothing vegetarian in your culture -- and especially if people frown on vegetarianism -- then it is tough. I mean, even if you didn't eat any processed food nobody would mock you for eating fish/meat and cheese. I get mocked constantly for being vegan, and questioned about whether it is anorexia from the doctors.

Voltaire was the master of quotes. He has two others you may like:
"The longer we dwell on our misfortunes, the greater is their power to harm us."
“Madness is to think of too many things in succession too fast, or of one thing too exclusively.”

I have so little time. It's difficult to find anything that isn't processed to eat. And processed food has carb.

Really? I was vegan for four years, and no one ever mocked me. Not to my face anyway. In fact people went out of their way to accommodate me.

OMG!!! My pdoc just says "eat less and do more" like I'm a fricking moron for being unable to lose weight!! I'm on an antidepressant that causes weight gain, which makes me more depressed and full of self-loathing at how I lack self-control for being unable to lose it. My body has been destroyed by meds as some have made me violently ill and lose a stone as I can't face eating, while others make me gain a stone above my 'normal' weight and yo-yoing up and down has ruined my once-flat stomach

This sucks!

*Willow*

That sucks. I'm lazy - I eat the same soup every day for a week. Or now, I have ten pieces of salmon in little plastic bags in my freezer and every day I bake one with some broccoli and mushrooms = meal.

Oh yeah, constant remarks on how I must be a "picky eater" or that I was eating "rabbit food" or not real food at all, or how I must feel "so superior" to other people because of my diet (and I was never a preachy vegan). Just . . . constant remarks like that. I turned down some M&Ms my class teacher brought in once on account of they have dairy products -- which I'm really not supposed to eat -- and he felt the need to tell me my dietary habits were rude and un-inclusive. (Never mind that M&Ms are gross and SMARTIES RULE!!!!1!)

Yes!! They always said that to me like i'm some kind of idiot and it's soooooo not true. (Well, maybe a bit -- I could lose maybe 40 pounds out of 170+ I had to lose through diet/exercise alone . . . so not really a big dent.) I don't know what it was, but I proper inflated on the drugs --- doubled body weight! WTF eh?
It made me really depressed, too. Like I was a useless failure and maybe I really must be ill if I got SO FAT and all it was was not having a proper diet and exercise.
So yeah. I wish someone had told me from the beginning that I would not be able to lose much weight by dieting on the drugs. I would have hated myself SO MUCH less.

Also . . . I know how tough it is . . . but a stone is hardly anything. I gain that much when I have to write exams and nobody really notices, even though I feel gross as all hell.

There's a great documentary on the BBC tonight:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...Fat_Episode_1/
Those of us in the UK can watch it. "The Men Who Made Us Fat: The story of HFCS".
Maybe those in other places can find it ripped online somewhere?!

ETA: It features Robert Lustig, too! From our lips to the BBC comptroller's ears, eh?!?

And a British comedian going off about the Atkins diet:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ins-diet-video

Hehe

Yeah my Mum keeps telling me that you can't tell I've put on weight but I really can't believe her. How can people not see the massive muffin top I've recently sprouted - ugh! I know a stone is nothing much, especially not compared with others, and I'm quite tall so I'm still in the healthy BMI range, but it makes me feel out of control. And I've had to go up a size in trousers and even that's getting too tight and I point blank REFUSE to buy even bigger trousers!! I will never lose it if I lose sight of how much I've gained. To be honest, I may weigh more than an extra stone as I've just had exams and I stress-eat but been too scared to get on the scales for the last month

This is another reason I want off my antidepressant (the main one being that it doesn't work!!). Aripiprazole is supposed to be weight-neutral so I'm happy to give that one the benefit of the doubt for now... Anyway I'm reading the diet talk with interest. Have to do something about this now before it gets worse!

*Willow*

What other people see is different from what we see . . . in large part because other people don't care (This is one of my life mottos.) I don't think you have to worry about trousers until -- like I was -- you go into even Evan's and their biggest size won't even come over your bum.

My baps are all flat and saggy now from such a huge weight gain>loss. I actually never had breasts before the antipsychotics and I'm convinced they made me get huge knockers. I still have FF cups, whereas before they were Bs.

It's not licensed in the UK for depression (just for smoking cessation), but buproprion is licensed as an anti-depressant in the US and Canada and it was surprisingly weight-neutral for me (it made my normal period bloat of 4lbs become 1/2 stone, which then left again). It's also the only thing I ever felt better on! Maybe you could ask your doc about that, too.

Nah, she won't prescribe off-label I asked for buproprion a few years ago. My pdoc where I live for Uni is much more on-the-ball (he takes tertiary referrals for mood disorders) so I'll ask him when I move back in Sept.

PS: I've just ordered the Radley bag as a reward for sitting my exams and not freaking out/topping myself. I feel so naughty (Just don't tell my Dad how much it cost! lol)

Night

*Willow*

Oooh, Radley bag! You'll have to report to me on how amazing it is!! I've got my eyes on a different £160 bag now and I'm trying to convince myself I deserve it, need it, and can afford it. No easy feet.

I hate it when pdocs won't prescribe off-label. They need to admit that they're grabbing at straws, blind AND in the dark, when they treat psych disorders and just prescribe anything you ask. I think they only let me stay on buproprion in the UK because I was prescribed it in Canada, though -- they try to keep the meds "stable". Also why I was required to take the maximum dose of clozapine for a year with nobody questioning it.

Oh carbs, why must you be so very tasty?

Costello -- I got ahold of "Doctor Atkins' New Diet Revolution" today for £2 -- thanks for the used bookstore tip! And I was thinking about what you said about used self-help books and whether the last owner found them helpful!
I've been wondering, what do you make of the suggestions that Dr. Atkins himself died overweight and from heart problems? I'm having trouble trusting his diet because of this information.

(To nobody in particular: )
I weighed myself today. It wasn't pretty. I think I'd like to lose about a stone. I can't quite figure out how I could have a BMI of 24 and still fit into the smallest sizes in clothing. Does my head in, actually.

I think it's tragic that certain groups were so set on pushing their agenda that they fraudulently obtained Dr. Atkins' autopsy records and released private information from them which mislead people into believing this nonsense. It's amazing to me that this misformation is still being circulated.

Dr. Atkins died of a head injury he received when he slipped on an icy sidewalk while walking to work at the age of 72. According to his widow he was a normal weight when he fell. By the time he was removed from life support nine days later he'd bloated up due to organ failure.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...atements_x.htm

http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp

His heart disease was cardiomyopathy and was not related to diet.

This reminds me of the story that goes around about Bobby McFerrin who sang Don't Worry, Be Happy. People say he committed suicide when in fact he's still alive. People just love an ironic story.

ETA: This story includes the information that Dr. Atkins was interviewed by Dateline 6 weeks before his death and he wasn't obese: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4327741/...ing-dr-atkins/

Wow, thanks for that! Those are not the hits that come up on Google when I search "Atkins death" . . . it's all stuff about dying from a heart attack. I hate the google search algorithm >

To be honest, I feel very sick eating this way. I was so weak I was shaking today. Not sure if that's the big change or what.

Could be not enough fat. Could be not enough calories. Could be your body hasn't kicked into ketosis yet. Could be it's not the right diet for you.

It's really common to feel sick at the beginning of the diet, because you're body isn't used to burning fat for fuel. I can't remember anyone complaining of weakness, though. It usually actually sounds like flu symptoms.

http://elowcarbfoodlist.org/the-keto...ms-and-relief/

I personally never had it, but then I never got the burst of energy either. I think they go together. You feel awful for a week, then you feel great.

This is a really common question from people not familiar with Atkins. These rumors started with a doctor who works for a vegetarian group. It's one of those stories that constantly gets recycled, and it never seems to die.

Well, I'll keep at it for another few days. I could very easily be getting sick and it's only day two.

Google's search algorithm creeps me out for other reasons, too. Like how the first hit on any news item I search is from the newspaper I work at . . . which is not a newspaper with even a small circulation in this country. So how does the Googlemachine know I am somehow associated with that paper?!?

Google gives you results based on previous searches and results. I watched an interesting talk on this subject a year or so ago. That's why you can't tell someone "do a google search on X" and the first hit will be "Y." Even the types of results you get vary. Some people will be given videos, for example, and others won't.

Of course this was before the last big change.

I finally bit the bullet and weighed myself...it wasn't pretty. I weigh half a stone more than I thought I did, which is 1 1/2 stone more than is normal for me. The passivity/apathy I feel (mentioned in the other thread about antipsychotics) meant I gave in a while back and just bought some trousers a size bigger than my usual size because I couldn't be bothered to do anything about it, but now they are too tight too

I simply REFUSE to get fatter!! All I want to do is cry, eat junk food and carve the word 'FAT" into my massive stomach, but I'm trying not to do all three. Why is it that weighing myself makes me want to reach for the chocolate?!

Anyway I've stopped my anti-depressant today (my pdoc can get stuffed, I don't care how mad she is!), but I will give the anti-psychotic the benefit of the doubt for now as it is actually helping (unlike my anti-depressant!), and I'm going to re-read this thread to see what I'm going to do about shifting this weight.

Anyway just wanted to thank you costello and fishsandwich for all the info

*Willow*

I wanted to do that when I weighed myself last night! I use the scales at Boots because I don't own one and then discovered I'm (also!) 1.5 stone heavier than I'd like to be, and OF COURSE I blindly wandered into Tesco right after and nearly bought one of those massive pots of Eton mess they do that (theoretically) feed eight people.

Anyway, I hope you find what works! I'm trying low-carb because vegan wasn't cutting it and I was having massive mood swings. I'm reading the Atkins book right now but I don't think I'll be so extreme for a long, long time. I'll focus on removing processed sugar instead of all carbs.

I think I'm also going to struggle with the amount of money this is going to cost. My diet as a vegan was beans and rice, which are just about the cheapest foods one can buy. Meat and eggs so expensive