[costello]

My son and I had a heated discussion last night. I really didn't want to get involved in the conversation, but he insisted. He wants to move out, get his own apartment.

He has about $1500 saved. He figures he can use $900 for the deposit and first month's rent. The rest for furniture. Fine. Assuming he can find someone to rent to him, that gets him into the apartment. Now how does he live month-to-month? He doesn't know if his job will continue past March. And even if it does, does he want to be "stuck" with it? He wouldn't be able to afford a place of his own with just his disability. He'd need a job to supplement it.

So, I'm thinking, wait a couple of months. See how the job goes. See if they offer him permanent work. I pointed out that just last Thursday he wanted to quit this job. He said that was before they said they were happy with him. Well, that's nice for this very moment in time. But sooner or later, someone will say something critical or he'll have a bad day or a bad call, and he'll want to quit again. He pointed out that if he had an apartment and bills he couldn't quit, so he'd find a way to work through it.

I feel a lot of anxiety, because my son has a history of asking my opinion, then doing what I suggest, and blaming me if it doesn't work out. So, I feel like it's a trap. If I say, "Ok, go ahead," and it doesn't work out, he'll blame me. He has done this many, many times. He simply cannot accept any "defeats." It's too hard on his ego, so he has to "blame" someone else - usually me.

I told him about this, and he denied doing it. I couldn't think of any examples, but I know he's done it. Last night when he was trying to force me to advise him, I just kept thinking, "This is how the trap is set. He says he just wants my opinion, then later he acts like I 'told' him to do whatever." I tried to explain that if I take someone else's advice and it doesn't work out, I'm still responsible for the outcome.

Then I told him that I'm afraid I'll end up having to come rescue him. The last two times he moved into his own apartment, he immediately stopped taking his meds and had episodes - that I had to step in and clean up - at my expense. Yes, he's older now and making better choices, but it's hard for me not to feel scared. When he moved from mhc housing to his own apartment in October 2009, he was doing great. Stable on medication. Working a parttime job. Going to school. As soon as he moved into his apartment, he stopped his meds and started drinking heavily. Two months later he's in a hospital 750 miles away completely psychotic. I couldn't get them to release him from a distance, and they were making noises like they were going to transfer him to a longer-term hospital, so I had to catch a train to that city and arrive at the hospital and announce I wasn't leaving without my son.

Then he moved in with some woman in Feb. 2010 and didn't take care of himself at all. By Nov. 2010, he'd lost 30 pounds and had given his car away to a stranger on a promise that the stranger would come back and pay him for it (he never did). At that point I think he realized he needed help, and he told me he was moving into my house. I don't think he slept at all for the first three days he was here. He was like a wraith wandering around here, interacting mostly with his alternate reality and telling me my dad's ghost was living in the basement. It took a lot of afford to get him to the place he is now. I don't want to go back, and I'm afraid if he moves out too soon, that's what will happen.

Why can't he at least wait two more months and see if the job's going to be permanent?

So we had a heated discussion. He said, "So if I move out, and it doesn't work out, it's my fault?" And I'm thinking, "My God, I could spend weeks peeling back the layers of that one comment."

First, why does he choose the word "fault"? Why is it always about blame with him? This just goes to the heart of his main problem IMO. He can't have a failure or mistake without feeling like he's totally worthless. His ego can't sustain even the tiniest failure. A caller at work asks to talk to his supervisor, and it's a mortal blow!

Second, yes, adults take responsibility for their actions! Yes! We all have to take calculated risks in life. There's no completely safe life. But, yes, we have to own the results of our actions.

Third, this is exactly what I mean when I say he asks my advice solely to set me up to take the blame if it doesn't work! Maybe not consciously, but on some level, he's already trying to set me up as the fall guy if things go south. His ego can't stand it, so he has to shift the blame to me. And I just get tired of it.

I told him once that I wasn't going to be responsible for the results of his actions anymore if he does something he's done before and he ends up in hot water. At the time he was saying he wants to go back to hanging out in bars and drinking. Fine. You want to drink and then get in your car and drive, it's your responsibility to make sure you're sober enough to pass the breathalyzer test at the side of the road when some cop pulls you over. And I'm not getting out of my bed at 2 am to see if I can scrape together $1000 to bond you out. Been there, done that, you're on your own.

And, frankly, I'm going to have to apply that to the 'move to your own apartment and quit taking your psych meds' scenario too. I'm not going to fish you out of whatever psych ward you end up in because you've done something that will predictably end up badly.

But when I say this, which I think is a reasonable stance, he hears, "You're on your own. I won't help you anymore." He doesn't seem to distinguish between 'getting into the same old hot water doing the same old silly things' and 'being supported by loved ones as you try new things and you meet new challenges.'

You know, he was exactly this same way when he was a kid. He'd write essays for school and have so many spelling and punctuation errors that the teacher would waste all her red ink correcting those. I'd tell him, "Why don't you make some different mistakes on the next essay? Spell all the words correctly, and the teacher can give you feedback on something else. Word choice, maybe. Or transitions. Or ideas. Or organization." If you keep making the same mistakes over and over, you never learn anything new. Of course, people get tired of helping you get out of the same old scrapes that you should have learned to stay out of long ago.

[faerie_moon_x]

Hi costello,

I am having troubles today so could not read the whole thing.

But, about moving out, it's not as easy as he may believe. Perhaps you should allow him to apply at places and let life be the experience. Where I live, you need to make 3x the rent monthly to be considered for an apartment. Your credit needs to be in good order (which is my big issue.) You need to put down a $40 deposit per person for them to do a full background check on you (I know your son has suspiciousness problems so he might not like that idea.) And then the apartment deposit which varies, only if you get aproved.

I'm looking for a new place now and my credit history is making it very hard. I've never been late on rent. But, my dad doesn't report that to credit agency, so all the apartment sees are a lot of late credit card payments. >.> It's rather dumb.

I don't know if that's a good idea. I think one big issue with me and my dad is he never believed I could make it on my own, and his disbeliefe made me lack confidence to even try. Now I carry 7 people despite having bipolar.

[costello]

Yes, it's challenging to get an apartment here too. The last time he looked he couldn't get one because of an old assault charge he has (which he got a diversion for, so it shouldn't have shown up). His credit will be a problem too.

Originally Posted by dark_heart_x

I don't know if that's a good idea. I think one big issue with me and my dad is he never believed I could make it on my own, and his disbeliefe made me lack confidence to even try. Now I carry 7 people despite having bipolar.

Yes, this is one reason I don't want to talk with him about this. My anxiety surrounding this topic is really high. For good reason btw. But I don't want to send that 'I don't believe in you' message. He'll take it deeply to heart. I want him to be in a position where I can honestly say that I think he's in a strong position to get his own place. He can do it. He has before. In fact, he defended himself last night that he's held a job for an extended period of time and had his own place. All true, and he needs to hold that thought in mind. He's done it before; he can do it again.

I just don't think it's wise to decide that he can afford an apartment based on a temporary job that he wants to quit every other day.

I tried my darnedest to avoid the conversation last night, and I explained I feel anxious about it. But he insisted he needed to hear my views. My honest opinion is: Not now! But I'm also aware that I'm so anxious on this subject that now may never arrive. I tried to explain that to him too.

I don't want him to move out and think he can't bring his problems to me because he's interpreted my attempts to set boundaries to mean I won't help him at all ever ever ever again.

[faerie_moon_x]

Does he do any type of goal setting therapy or behavior?

Maybe let him know that you think it's a good idea but just not at the present moment because his job is a temp job. My husband's uncle is having this problem. He is living with us now, trying to get back on his feet. He had a job and it was going well, he was almost to his 90 days, but he was a temp and they decided the job ended and not keep him on. Now he's back to square one and having trouble finding another job.

Problem is, we're getting ready to move and he can't come along. So, it's all very tense at home....

So, anyway, maybe he can set a goal. Like if he holds his job for 6 months, start looking. In the mean-time keep saving money for the move. Since his credit is bad maybe try to build up 2-3 months rent to offer up front. (That's what we're doing.)

I think if you show you support the idea, but just want him to wait for a bit that might help. Also, maybe it will give him incentive to hold his job longer.

[costello]

Originally Posted by dark_heart_x

Does he do any type of goal setting therapy or behavior?

I think so, yes.

Maybe let him know that you think it's a good idea but just not at the present moment because his job is a temp job.

I did say that. (I hope he heard me.) I even suggested he start looking for an apartment now, with the proviso that he not sign a lease until they've offered to make his job permanent. That way he can have some real numbers to work with for his budget. Rent. Estimated utilities. And so on.

My husband's uncle is having this problem. He is living with us now, trying to get back on his feet. He had a job and it was going well, he was almost to his 90 days, but he was a temp and they decided the job ended and not keep him on. Now he's back to square one and having trouble finding another job.

My fear exactly. If his job doesn't go permanent at least he won't be obligated on a lease. He kept saying there are no guarantees in life. He could lose the job in 6 months anyway. True, but a temporary job is riskier than a permanent one.

So, anyway, maybe he can set a goal. Like if he holds his job for 6 months, start looking. In the mean-time keep saving money for the move. Since his credit is bad maybe try to build up 2-3 months rent to offer up front. (That's what we're doing.)

I agree. Six months sounds great to me. Why is he in such an all-fired hurry?

[faerie_moon_x]

I know this is true for me, and I know it's especially true for my husband (who has ADD.) But, once I get an idea that I want to do something, I have this very extremely high pressure drive that it has to happen now. (My husband even more so that if it doesn't happen now, then he gets very irritable about it.) It's an extremely hard emotion to fight against. It feels a lot like pressured speach to me.

I think a lot of people feel this when excited. But, I think for me (and my husband more so,) it's a feeling that is so overwhelming that it's hard for us to combat against it. It can easily push me into mania. Being excited about something does that to me. So, maybe it's something like that.

[cybermember]

Originally Posted by costello

I did say that. (I hope he heard me.) I even suggested he start looking for an apartment now, with the proviso that he not sign a lease until they've offered to make his job permanent. That way he can have some real numbers to work with for his budget. Rent. Estimated utilities. And so on.

My fear exactly. If his job doesn't go permanent at least he won't be obligated on a lease. He kept saying there are no guarantees in life. He could lose the job in 6 months anyway. True, but a temporary job is riskier than a permanent one.

I agree. Six months sounds great to me. Why is he in such an all-fired hurry?

Have you asked your son what's his hurry to move out?

[avlady]

Your son sounds like he has good intentions, but cannot apply them to the situation. another thing is the drinking sounds bad, it's so easy to get reinvolved with the bar scene, once he has enough for partying, i think maybe your anxiety could be from that too since he does have a past with abusing alcholol. maybe also letting him try another time to get him on his own just scares you because of the past too. I am going through empty nest syndrome am afraid of my son's handeling as to the use of alcohol, as he has brought liquor home, but it scares me too especially if he was going to be driving under the influence.He has moved out dec1 and i don't see him hardly ever but the fer is always there, I feel for you and hope it doesn't happen to me and my son. I'll pray for both of us -avlady

[KUREHA]

Yeah I think you should try and get him to wait a few months.

[costello]

Originally Posted by cybermember

Have you asked your son what's his hurry to move out?

No. I could ask, but it would have to be worded carefully. The other risk is that he think I want him to stay because I'd be lonely without him here.

[costello]

Originally Posted by avlady

another thing is the drinking sounds bad, it's so easy to get reinvolved with the bar scene, once he has enough for partying,

Too true, and he still has all the old friends, and they're all still drinking heavily and using drugs.

[costello]

Originally Posted by KUREHA

Yeah I think you should try and get him to wait a few months.

I think you're right. At least until he finds out of the job will be made permanent.

[cybermember]

Originally Posted by costello

No. I could ask, but it would have to be worded carefully. The other risk is that he think I want him to stay because I'd be lonely without him here.

It's a sensible question to ask why he's in such a hurry but I understand that your son may distort what your trying to ask.

You could say, out of curiosity and want to make sure you haven't done anything wrong... that you are fine with him moving out but would like for him to get more of his ducks in a row for him to be successful in his plan.

[costello]

I don't know if he's annoyed with me or what. I was in my bedroom when he got home from his therapy appointment. He was sitting on the couch, so I came out to the livingroom and sat with him. Pretty soon he got up and moved into his bedroom and just sat there on the bed. So I left to go into town.

When I was driving home I passed him as he was driving to work. I waved at him, but he didn't wave back. Maybe he didn't see me?

I'm so tired of it all. I hope he does move out. It feels like I spend a lot of time taking care of other people, and no one takes care of me.

[newtus]

Originally Posted by costello

It feels like I spend a lot of time taking care of other people, and no one takes care of me.

[costello]

Originally Posted by newtus

Thank you, newtus. I needed a hug.

[faerie_moon_x]

I feel the same way, Costello. You take care of everyone but when is it your turn? I feel exactly the same way all the time.

[likewater]

Originally Posted by dark_heart_x

I feel the same way, Costello. You take care of everyone but when is it your turn? I feel exactly the same way all the time.

Originally Posted by costello

I don't know if he's annoyed with me or what. I was in my bedroom when he got home from his therapy appointment. He was sitting on the couch, so I came out to the livingroom and sat with him. Pretty soon he got up and moved into his bedroom and just sat there on the bed. So I left to go into town.

When I was driving home I passed him as he was driving to work. I waved at him, but he didn't wave back. Maybe he didn't see me?

I'm so tired of it all. I hope he does move out. It feels like I spend a lot of time taking care of other people, and no one takes care of me.

Ultimately, he is going to do what he wants. I think you are smart by not letting him back you into a corner and make you responsible for his decision. He probably wouldn't like the idea and maybe they aren't available, but a group living situation could give him some independence and support at the same time. In the meantime perhaps you could get a massage, see a favorite friend, advisor, therapist or clergy member or do whatever thing would be special for you and recharge your batteries. Yoga, ice cream, a goodbook, a movie, meditation, bungee jumping?

[costello]

Thanks, likewater.

Sadly, I think he has doubts too. He called me yesterday when I was at work. He's afraid no one will rent to him. He's afraid he won't be able to find a good place. He's afraid he'll get isolated. etc., etc., etc.

I feel bad adding my worries to his.

He does have contingency plans, though. He wants to find a second job in case the first one doesn't work out.

I got a chance to ask him cyber's question about why he's in such a hurry. He doesn't know.

I talked to him about the time he moved from transitional mental health housing to that apartment in October 2009. He was in such a rush and so excited. And it went so badly, so quickly. He grabbed the first apartment he could find. I didn't go look at it with him. I sent my mom. After the mhc called me and told me he'd disappeared, I went to his apartment to see if I could find him. It was my first time in the building and the apartment (he'd left his door unlocked). The building had really weird accoustics. Lots of disembodied voices and doors slamming. I would think that it would be awful for someone who was hallucinating. If I'd seen the place, I would have tried to talk him out of it. Might not have succeeded, though. He was hellbent on moving out of mental health housing.

[faerie_moon_x]

I agree if you're somewhere that's extra noisy with things that are disjointed and you can't pinpoint them, that's not good. I would constantly be asking my husband "do you hear that?" Just to be safe, and that can get annoying...

Good you remind him of that. Maybe he will slow down a bit.

[newtus]

Originally Posted by costello

The building had really weird accoustics. Lots of disembodied voices and doors slamming. I would think that it would be awful for someone who was hallucinating.

lol.

well...
i lived in a college apt complex once for a week. it had weird "acoustics" too. heard lots of bannging and screaming. honestly i didnt know whether i was hearing stuff or not. 100% no clue. thats not why i left. the setup was weird. i had a roommate and we had keys to the door and our private rooms but shared the kitchen and living. the whole thing was a huge mistake to me cause i wanted to live alone but then my mom didnt want to pay for anything but a cheap place. utilities were paid all i paid for was rent. (or she did i mean. i was 20 at the time). i moved because i was harrassed. it all still remains a "mystery". i honestly believed i had been gangstalked but everyone thinks i was hallucinating these men. i really wasnt.

[costello]

Originally Posted by newtus

lol.

well...
i lived in a college apt complex once for a week. it had weird "acoustics" too. heard lots of bannging and screaming. honestly i didnt know whether i was hearing stuff or not. 100% no clue.

That would be confusing. I know there were weird sounds at that place, because I heard them, and I don't hallucinate.

i wanted to live alone

Yeah, my son has tried the roommate thing, and it doesn't work for him. He had one roommate who kept saying to him, "Seriously. You need a psychiatrist." Which was probably true, but maybe he shouldn't have said so.

i honestly believed i had been gangstalked but everyone thinks i was hallucinating these men. i really wasnt.

When my son was living at that apartment, he started drinking hard liquor. (He's normally more of a beer type.) He told me he knew this guy who was really cool and together who drank a lot of Jack Daniels. So, my son figures if he wants to be cool and together he should drink hard liquor too.

This thing is I still don't know if this 'cool guy' was real. And I can't just ask my son. That would be kind of rude.

[faerie_moon_x]

I don't like having too many people around. I'm good with my husband and my boys. I'm fair with his mom being there, we have our ups and downs, and for a short time I don't mind her living with us, but I don't think I can do it forever. I don't like having his uncle living with us. He's not a bad guy or anything, but it's just becoming too many people (plus his uncle isn't the best room mate and moody. Like he installs things on my pc without asking... like web cams! I hate web cams!)

Anyway.... I prefer it to just be me, my husband, and my kids.

I just always feel watched and judged when people are around. I don't feel like I have a safe place at my house right now.

[costello]

Originally Posted by dark_heart_x

I just always feel watched and judged when people are around. I don't feel like I have a safe place at my house right now.

My son too.

What makes me saddest is even if there's no one there judging him, he images a judge. He'll be thinking, "What if so and so were here? What would he think about what I'm doing now?" He can't ever relax and enjoy himself when he's completely alone. Or, not even enjoy himself, just relax and not feel like he has to be 'perfect' - whatever that is.

Every once in a while he gets a little playful with the dog or the cat. He reminds me of when he was little. He was such a sweet little guy. Even a bit of a flirt.

Then he just closes down again. No, he doesn't close down. He stiffens up. That's how he is. Seldom relaxed. Usually stiff - the way you are when you're very self-conscious. Like when you're walking across a room and everyone is looking at you and you become so self-conscious you almost forget how to walk.

[faerie_moon_x]

Originally Posted by costello

My son too.

What makes me saddest is even if there's no one there judging him, he images a judge. He'll be thinking, "What if so and so were here? What would he think about what I'm doing now?" He can't ever relax and enjoy himself when he's completely alone. Or, not even enjoy himself, just relax and not feel like he has to be 'perfect' - whatever that is.

Every once in a while he gets a little playful with the dog or the cat. He reminds me of when he was little. He was such a sweet little guy. Even a bit of a flirt.

Then he just closes down again. No, he doesn't close down. He stiffens up. That's how he is. Seldom relaxed. Usually stiff - the way you are when you're very self-conscious. Like when you're walking across a room and everyone is looking at you and you become so self-conscious you almost forget how to walk.

Your son sounds a lot like me. I always am thinking someone is watching me and judging me even when I'm all alone. It's really hard to relax. My husband always is telling me to relax. I was judged a lot, as a kid. Severly bullied. Like, you hear those kids on the news that commit suicide from bullies. That was me, except of course still here, and that was before Facebook, so bullies actually have had this power all along.

But, I just want to tell you because I don't know if your son can tell you, that you're a good mom. He's super lucky that he has you as a mom. So, don't feel bad about not having all the answers for him beacuse you do better for him than most people do for anyone.