[Juliaspavlov]

I am so frustrated.
My 20 year old son is in the psych ward again
and to doctors and relatives other than husband
his schizophrenia is obvious. J has the 10 top
symptoms of schizophrenia
I have been trying to educate myself on the subject
so as to be less confused.
My husbands scoff's at my efforts.
He says you may as well try to understand the meaning of
the universe than understand a 'label' of schitzophrenia.
Bleeeecccchhhh><

[iamtwilight]

Sigh, I'm so sorry you have to struggle with this. I can totally relate. I'm (according to my pdoc and to a certain point I agree) psychotic and I'm afraid of telling my dad because I think he will deny it all. My mother was okay, worried, like you, but she believed me.

Everybody says it takes some a while to "accept" schizophrenia etc. I'm not sure, but I hope so!

How does he see your son's symptoms? I hope he knows there's something wrong with him, that (presumable, since I don't know your son's situation, but seeing he has 10 symptoms it seems pretty serious) he can't function properly without treatment.

Well.. This is not much, but it's all I can say. Your son is very lucky to have a mother like you who educates herself. That is definitely going to help him. All the best to you and your son.

[spiritual_emergency]

<blockquote>
Juliaspavlov: Husband does not believe in schizophrenia...

I'm not so sure I do either at times. What I do believe in is that people can go through periods of extreme crisis and they may need assistance from other people for a while in order to successfully move through those crisis states. Will everybody be able to do so? No. For reasons I don't yet understand, not everyone will.

He says you may as well try to understand the meaning of the universe than understand a 'label' of schitzophrenia.

I can appreciate his sentiments. In a nutshell... if you have an experience of psychosis, that's psychosis. If you keep having experiences of psychosis from time to time, that's schizophrenia. Personally, I prefer to think of it as psychosis that's not yet been resolved.

There are two factors that can help guide you in understanding your son's experience: the first is cause, the second is model.

Cause: There are a lot of theories out there in regard to what causes psychosis in the first place. For this reason, psychosis has been described as the "fever" of mental health -- it can be present alongside a number of other factors. Mainstream psychiatry tends to push the biomedical model to the extent that most people believe that's the only cause, but it's far from the only one. In spite of the confusion, it can be helpful to try and identify any triggering factors because this can help determine the best treatment options. For example, sometimes the use of streets drugs can produce psychosis. In these instances, the cure is usually pretty simple -- stop taking drugs and the psychosis goes away. As another example, there is a link between trauma and psychosis. An individual experiencing psychosis who also has some heavy trauma in his or her past will likely benefit from therapy that will assist them in dealing with the trauma. For a sampling of some of the factors that are thought to produce schizophrenia and psychosis, try here: Presumed Causes of Schizophrenia &amp; Psychosis.

Model: Over the years, people have identified a number of causes and then created models of approach to address those causes. Some of the models include the biomedical model, the mystical model and the myth-of-mental-illness model. Each model contains different treatment approaches and it's possible that one will fit your son better than the others. For a brief introduction to various models of approach, try here: Controversies Over Cause of Schizophrenia.

If you identify more with the medical model, I suggest you read up on the work of Dr. Jaakko Seikkula. If you identify more with the mystical model, I suggest the work of Dr. John Weir Perry. I toss those two names around a lot and I do so because both of those doctors have (or did have) a recovery rate in the range of 80-85%. This exceeds by far what most psychiatrists in this culture are able to produce -- a number of whom don't even believe recovery is possible. It's beyond me how anyone who doesn't believe in recovery could possible produce it in others, but maybe that's my own personal bias.

Meantime, if trauma may play a role I suggest the work of Dr. Bertam Karon and Dr. John Read.

Your best bet is to read them all, but if you prefer to pick and choose, you've got a few options to choose from.

Meanwhile, if you were going to read only one book on schizophrenia I would recommend Mad in America as a solid introduction to the complexities of schizophrenia and it's treatment.

It's possible that other people will have some other recommendations for you. Best of luck to you and your son.

Sorry to hear about what you husband thinks. I also noticed that a lot of people dont believe in mental illnesses or think people are faking it or something. Im 19 and when I was diagnosed with severe depression and anxiety a lot people in my family and friends kept asking me to just stop it... I was like WTF stop what? I actually didnt know what depression, anxiety were back then and I thought there was nothing wrong with me but when I look back I was doing real bad. For some reason people were mad at me because of the illness, like I was doing something wrong. People would try to force me to do things that I was in no condition to do because they thought I was faking it sometimes. A lot of people got tired of dealing with me.

I dont blame them thought because none of them had any idea what I was going through. I lost a lot of friends and relatives and messed up my whole life because of something that I had no control over. It basically ruined my whole life even worse than it was before it happened. I realize that I will be dealing with some form of mental illness for the rest of my life. I still have mild depression, anxiety, and psychosis. Thats just the way it is sometimes Im okay other times I feel like Im going to do something bad, but luckily I have kept it under control. Sorry to hear about your son also hopefully he will get better one day.

[Juliaspavlov]

thank you Katie Kaboom. Your comments
are very encouraging. I'm sorry it hard to
talk with your dad. It's hard to face not
being believed so I feel for you in that.
Thanks for saying about how I am as a mum.
its nice to be acknowledged for that.

Keep up your good work in being there for
others.

[Juliaspavlov]

Spiritual emergency thanks for being very helpful.
I have appreciated your many replies to my posts
about my youngest son J.
He in a functioning mind would love
your responses. They are very much alongside
of his views. His inner core is very sweet and
compassionate and charismatic,affectionate
and a people person.
His inner core will emerge again I keep hoping.

You are a tremendous asset here at PCentral.
(((((((spiritual emergency)))))))

[Juliaspavlov]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Pennkid said:
. I also noticed that a lot of people dont believe in mental illnesses or think people are faking it or something....a lot people in my family and friends kept asking me to just stop it... For some reason people were mad at me because of the illness, like I was doing something wrong...... People would try to force me to do things that I was in no condition to do because they thought I was faking it sometimes.....

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Pennkid I feel you are brave and courageous and kind.
Please accept my hugs and thanks . Sorry you have been
thru the above. I hope your problems don't prove to be
relentless, and that you see hope and relief ahead.
(((((Pennkid))))) &

No problem and thx for the good words and support. I also hope that I can find a way to work out my problems and that I will get better one day.

[pachyderm]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
spiritual_emergency said:
<blockquote>
Meantime, if trauma may play a role I suggest the work of Dr. Bertam Karon and Dr. John Read.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

There is an audio interview of Dr. Karon titled "What causes schizophrenia?" at

http://www.jackstreet.com/jackstreet/wpsy.dr.karonE.cfm

I find it quite interesting (and not necessarily calming) to listen also to the tone of the voices in this and other similar interviews.

[teejai]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Juliaspavlov said:
I am so frustrated.
My 20 year old son is in the psych ward again
and to doctors and relatives other than husband
his schizophrenia is obvious. J has the 10 top
symptoms of schizophrenia
I have been trying to educate myself on the subject
so as to be less confused.
My husbands scoff's at my efforts.
He says you may as well try to understand the meaning of
the universe than understand a 'label' of schitzophrenia.
Bleeeecccchhhh><

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Have you checked out the parents board at schizophrenia.com ?

[spiritual_emergency]

<blockquote>
Have you checked out the parents board at schizophrenia.com ?

I went. I saw. I was appalled by the behavior of the moderators. To be more specific, their behavior was disturbingly cult-like.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>

To heighten our awareness, Them and Us identifies four basic cult behaviors that influence our thinking:

1) compliance with a group,
2) dependence on a leader,
3) avoiding dissent, and
4) devaluing the outsider.

These forces operate in all aspects of society. The core process is devaluing the outsider, resulting in Them-versus-Us behavior.

Source: Them &amp; Us


</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

A few examples...

One of my first comments was in reply to a news story about a woman who had found a recovery treatment program that was working very well for her. I noted that it was interesting that she had a history of trauma in her past, given the link between trauma and schizophrenia. I was directed by a moderator to read a specific link rebutting the trauma-schizophrenia link. I read it and noted that I hadn't been swayed (one professor up against 40 studies doesn't say much). I was then chastised by the moderator: your comment reveals that you don't actually read or understand ... I hope you can put more effort into understanding what we have on the site here.

Another moderator then suggested that I take a "little quiz" to see just how much I knew about schizophrenia. I scored 10 out of 10 but pointed out some of the expected answers were wrong. For example, question 1 asked quiz takers to determine what is required to make a diagnosis of schizophrenia. The correct answer is the presence of positive or negative symptoms over a minimum course of six months, but the quiz answer omits any mention of negative symptoms, thereby implying that a person must be in an actively psychotic state for six months straight!

To make matters worse, the quiz author's bio includes this statement: One Friday night, she became paranoid and had racing thoughts, and exhibited odd behavior all night, unable to sleep. The next morning, her mother drove Christina to the ER, where she was diagnosed with schizophrenia and placed on the psych ward.

Who, in god's name, makes a diagnosis of schizophrenia as based on 24 hours of symptoms and why does schizophrenia.com present that kind of information as the be-all and end-all of knowledge?

So... that was my introduction to the place.

Then I made a book recommendation. That post was deleted. I thought that maybe I had made the error and posted it again. The moderator posted a lengthy rebuttal from E. Fuller Torrey in response. I noted that I wasn't too crazy about Torrey, especially his inclination to tar all individuals with the same brush in regard to violence and schizophrenia via the Treatment Advocacy Center. I then posted an excellent piece John Grohol had written in regards to those issues. The quote by John Grohol was edited back to nothing but a link but the moderator's full quote by Torrey stayed in place.

It just got worse after that. Threads locked, posts edited, posts radically modified, posts completely dissappearing! I was seriously starting to get paranoid about the dissappearing post issue -- wondering if I had merely imagined posting them at all. And still, the posts kept vanishing without any explanation.

The people on the other hand, were much like the people here. Kind, empathic, courteous, honest, trying to be helpful and supportive.

Although the people were nice, I had to bow out because of the manipulative behavior of the moderators. I was starting to think they were actually getting their kicks out of playing mind games on the people there. That part of the experience was rather disturbing. I think I'd quickly go insane in a place like that.

It's worth noting that I didn't go to the parent boards so maybe it's a different kind of environment there. Nonetheless, based on what I did see in just one 24 hour period... I couldn't possibly recommend the place to anyone in good conscience.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
It's worth noting that I didn't go to the parent boards so maybe it's a different kind of environment there.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> I doubt it..... It's all about controlling someone with drugs, to be that which they are not... it's so so sad.......

Why don't others-- especially loved ones-- JUST listen-- really listen..........?????

mandy

[spiritual_emergency]

<blockquote>
Mandyfins you have my sincerest sympathy. I couldn't stand that place for one more second! The need to control and dominate others was very disturbing.

When it comes to parents, I do believe that many of them mean well. I do believe that most parents sincerely love their children and want what's best for them (I also recognize that's not true of all parents, as many members here can attest). What seems to happen to parents is they get frightened and then they rely on "expert" opinion to fill the places where they feel frightened, overwhelmed and out of their league. Some of them do from the point of conception and you're right -- they miss out on that connection with their kid that might allow for real insight, understanding and healing.

I am sincerely sorry that you don't feel heard. I just had 24 hours worth of it and I'm completely fed up with it. For me, I was able to leave and put it behind me but there isn't those bonds of attachment in place. It's much more difficult when it's a real parent and a real child.

Here's mandyfins, here's a good video for making you laugh. I know it's only a temporary solution but laughter is always good medicine:

[Juliaspavlov]

Mandyfins I hear you too!!!!

I went to the site recommended......
no comment

Sweet.....((hugs))
I went to the funny cat video..ta..

the song I don't know but something
about we keep on fighting!
well I suppose as long as we keep on fighting
to be there for our loved ones huh?

thanks for all contributions. Anyone else out there
have loved ones who don't believe in
psychology or psychiatry etc?

[pachyderm]

> Anyone else out there have loved ones who don't believe in psychology or psychiatry etc?

As you may have seen from the site on schizophrenia, I think there are some valid reasons for people not "believing" in psychology or psychiatry...

And I felt sorry for the cats. They make mistakes too.

[pachyderm]

> The moderator posted a lengthy rebuttal from E. Fuller Torrey in response.

Oh oh. Warning flag.

[spiritual_emergency]

<blockquote>
pachyderm: Oh oh. Warning flag.

I was so thoroughly unimpressed I gave them a great big thumbs down.

Meantime the truly disturbing thing is that this is what someone carrying the label of "schizophrenic" faces day in and day out. Bias, stigma, discrimination, being dumbed down, being invalidated, being silenced, being insulted, being disrespected. It's especially disturbing when this kind of behavior is carried out by those who purport to be in a position of support.

Fortunately, it's not all hopeless. Examples like this help people to develop discernment, and with discernment, one is more capable of finding that which is authentic, affirming, empowering, and truly supportive.

And now, I must go wash. *shudder*

[spiritual_emergency]

Juliaspavlov: Anyone else out there
have loved ones who don't believe in
psychology or psychiatry etc?

I should clarify Julia -- I most certainly do believe in psychology and psychiatry but I have very high standards. I expect to see quality care, quality information, very high moral and ethical standards. No one has been able to present me with any viable reason as to why I should lower those expectations.

I sincerely believe there are some exceptionally skilled professionals out there, my blogs are swarming with some of those I believe to be the very best. But damn! -- those good ones are hard to find.

[teejai]

The site is firmly geared to the ''genetic'/medicine model of schizophrenia with most posters adhering to that model.
It has to be said that the moderators are more rabid in ensuring discussion is focussed on a medical model etc approach than posters are in adhering to such an approach.

I personally support the medical model approach to a degree(Antipsychotics work with a varying degree of success but are not the 'magic bullet' that some would laud them to be) though not with the avid rabidity of some. Where i draw the line is with the overemphasis on medicine as a solution at the exclusion or playing down of other approaches.

Indeed it is my firm belief that the rabidness and intellectual posturing inherent on both sides of the pro and anti meds schools of thought does a great disservice to those sufferers caught up in it's crossfire.

I certainly do not agree with the clamping down on alternative view points there that are sensibly presented which may not be the same thing as necessarily agreeing with them.

Many there are great supporters of Fuller Torrey to a point that if Fuller Torrey announced that standing on your head and singing the 'Ballad of the green berets ' was an effective treatment for schizophrenia they would most probably believe it.

I have to admit that i do not hold Fuller Torrey in such high esteem but then neither am i totally dismissive of what he has to say.

I just do not see him as a 'God like' figure as some do. I certainly do not agree with his advocating that parents and relatives exaggerate or lie as to how bad mentally ill people are to facilitate the chances of them being compulsorily treated as this is a potential recipe for abuse of the mentally ill person at the hands of parents and or relatives with selfishly ulterior motives that have nothing to do with a genuine concern for the sufferer.

I am above all a believer in the diathesis-stress model of mental illness including schizophrenia with genetics and stressors playing their part to varying differing in different individuals.

I also believe that medicines should be used to improve functioning and quality of life rather than as a tool for dampening down harmless but societally disapproved of behaviours.

Unfortunately medication to treat the most disabling effect of sz ie the cognitive aspects as opposed to those seen as 'societally undesirable' leaves a lot to be desired with this research suggesting that the purported cognitive gains made by the newer atypicals are down to practice effect rather than the drugs.

I would not go as far as saying the behaviour of the mods there is particularly 'cult like' though i do not disagree that you offer up some valid points. [

[spiritual_emergency]

<blockquote>
Note that I started a new thread to address the topic that had sprung up in the middle of this one. Those of us who want to discuss the issue any further can carry on there.

Meanwhile, this thread was originally begun by Juliapavlov to address her concerns about her son.

I was wondering, Julia, how is he doing?

[Juliaspavlov]

thanks spiritual emergency
I always appreciate your replies.
I suppose I asked the question
re psychology and psychiatry
because my husband believes if everyone
got their teeth fixed then there would
be no problems. lol nervously.
maybe he is delusional?lol

[spiritual_emergency]

<blockquote>
Juliaspavlov: my husband believes if everyone got their teeth fixed then there would be no problems. lol nervously. maybe he is delusional?lol

Oh no! It's another one for the Presumed Causes File...

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>

Thousands of Studies Link Mercury in Dental Amalgam to Other Diseases

Research from more than 1,000 peer-reviewed or government studies documents the mechanism by which mercury causes or is a major factor in over 40 chronic health conditions, such as arthritis, multiple sclerosis, Lou Gehrig's Disease (ALS), Parkinson's/muscle tremor, Alzheimer's, muscular and joint pain/fibromyalgia, Chron's disease, lupus, scleroderma, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS), endometriosis, and diabetes.
...

Other neurological and mood disorders linked to mercury in amalgam include: memory disorders, depression, schizophrenia, insomnia, anger, anxiety and mental confusion, neuropathy/paresthesia, tinnitus, and dizziness/vertigo.

Source: Is there a Silent Killer Hidden in Your Metal Fillings?


</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I don't know if mercury fillings can cause neurological damage that, in turn, might be a contributing factor in the development of psychosis or schizophrenia. However, given that the scientific community is willing to seriously consider cat poop as a cause I see no reason why anyone would hesitate to toss "mercury fillings" into the ring along with everything else that's already there.

As a result, I'd have a difficult time saying that your husband is delusional. But it does seem to be that you're not feeling supported by him. Perhaps what you need are some ideas that might help the two of you get on the same page. Maybe the parents board of schizophrenia.com really could help you with that, Julia. Then again, maybe it depends on what you identify as the problem. Is it that he has his ideas fixed and he's not willing to alter them or is it that he doesn't have any ideas and he's not willing to educate himself so as to find some?

[Juliaspavlov]

good work in your answer
as to my husband
there is a sort of support
but whenever my son rings him
hubby says 'so when are you going to
get your teeth fixed and when are you going to
get a job?' as if he thinks my son
is just faking.
thats the frustration
I think the saying "you cant fix what you
don't acknowledge ' applies?

I am with my sons at the moment
where they live and I was
here for my young son J's 5 hour leave
We went to go-karts and he wanted Macca's
plus I got magoes and banas...I heard they are
quite useful. also useful is
plums tomatoes walnuts and pecans I heard.

[spiritual_emergency]

<blockquote>
Julia: whenever my son rings him hubby says 'so when are you going to get your teeth fixed and when are you going to get a job?' as if he thinks my son is just faking. thats the frustration

I can't recall at the moment if it was Pennkid or Itadakimasu who made a similar comment a while ago -- that they felt as if their families believed they were "faking". It's always possible that your husband believes the best thing he can do for your son right now is to not "stick" him with a label. Sometimes people also feel that it's better to be jovial and lighthearted around people who are in a crisis. I suspect that in their own way, they're trying to instill a sense of hope that life will still go on.

How is your husband's response sitting with your son? Is he feeling misunderstood, considered a "faker" by his father? If so, maybe there's a way you could gently point this out to your husband. Sometimes, people are more open to these kind of criticisms if you can first acknowledge their sincere desire to help.

I got magoes and banas...I heard they are quite useful. also useful is plums tomatoes walnuts and pecans I heard.

Do you recall why they're considered useful? I'm guessing it's something related to whatever nutrients they contain but do you know what those nutrients are and why they're supposed to be helpful?

[Juliaspavlov]

This is my 3rd try at a reply.
I said thanks.I appreciate it.
Good news:my son is home with his big bro.
I am so happy for him.
the book re fruit and so forth is:

Nature's Prozac
Natural ways to
achieve peak ,mental and
emotional health.

by Judith Sachs