[InRealLife45]

In huge trouble at school. I was referred to the school's disciplinary board for:

Failure to demonstrate interpersonal and professional competence with faculty.

It is regarding a disagreement I had with a past Professor, but may also be due to the fact that when venting to my academic advisor, I told him that the Professor was an "a s s h o l e." So he referred me for disciplinary action based on the conversation where I told him about the disagreement.

The "conversation" between the Professor and I is here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/94x0t8lu30...spect.pdf?dl=0

I discussed it with my therapist and she doesnt think it should be something for the disciplinary committee, but I didnt show her the printout of the emails. But basically just told my adviser about it and told him I thought the Professor was an asshole and then he referred me.

Was I being disrespectful to the Professor or demonstrating "interpersonal and professional incompetence?"

I pay 2750 per class, I don't feel like requesting Professor feedback after being told my work had to be graded with leniency and being refused is something that is okay. How am I supposed to do better on the next paper if I don't know what was wrong with the previous one?

To be clear: it stopped being about the 1 point/A- when he told me he was lenient in grading. At that point I was offended bc I don't turn in anything that requires a Professor to grade leniently, and if ever I lose points on anything, I am speaking with the Professor after class to ask the reason for each deduction if it was not written on my paper. The price we pay for courses, feedback should be included and I have never had a Professor refuse to tell me what is wrong with my paper, except this one. (I believe he never read the paper, to be honest.)

I feel like I cant do this, that its just proof I am not meant to be a therapist, I am not meant to be in graduate school, and I've just wasted the last year of my life on a degree I will never finish.

[justdesserts]

I think that repeatedly pressuring your professor for a response after he had told you no, especially over the difference between an A and and A- may demonstrate poor boundaries and a lack of an ability to accept the answer, "no." In no way, do I see it as as proof you're not meant to be in graduate school or to become a therapist. Graduate school, especially to become a therapist, is about more than academic learning. It's about learning to navigate interpersonal relationships and to show that you can handle yourself under distress. While I was in school, the most difficult parts were the interpersonal relationships. I hope the referral is designed to help you and teach you so you can move forward successfully in the program. In my experience, it's never a good idea to call someone with power over you an a**hole. It's always come back to bite me.

Best of luck--Don't give up!

[Argonautomobile]

This may not be what you want to hear and maybe it isn't my place to say it, but I think you may have become so fixated on a tiny imperfection that you've lost objectivity here. Your professor said a lot of really positive things here--you did well in the course. An A- is a good grade. Heck, as long as you passed GPAs start not mattering the further in your career you get. It was only when you pushed and pushed that the conversation started getting unproductive.

You can be a therapist. You are meant to be in graduate school. You are doing well. I think being sent to the disciplinary board is a little absurd, but don't freak out about it yet. It's a place to calmly state your grievances and settle the issue as to whether a doc's note excuses the late grade. Worse case scenario, they tell you you were rude, you apologize and move on with life. Good luck.

[stopdog]

It may be that taking a year or two away would be useful for you to regroup and try again. I don't think making conversations of these sorts public, even with info redacted, shows a great handling of interpersonal and professional competence. I would advise a law student of mine to withdraw for a period of time and try again. And this sort of thing would be considered an ethical problem in some graduate fields in my experience.

[InRealLife45]

Originally Posted by justdesserts

I think that repeatedly pressuring your professor for a response after he had told you no, especially over the difference between an A and and A- may demonstrate poor boundaries and a lack of an ability to accept the answer, "no." In no way, do I see it as as proof you're not meant to be in graduate school or to become a therapist. Graduate school, especially to become a therapist, is about more than academic learning. It's about learning to navigate interpersonal relationships and to show that you can handle yourself under distress. While I was in school, the most difficult parts were the interpersonal relationships. I hope the referral is designed to help you and teach you so you can move forward successfully in the program. In my experience, it's never a good idea to call someone with power over you an a**hole. It's always come back to bite me.

Best of luck--Don't give up!

To be clear: it stopped being about the 1 point/A- when he told me he was lenient in grading. At that point I was offended bc I don't turn in anything that requires a Professor to grade leniently, and if ever I lose points on anything, I am speaking with the Professor after class to ask the reason for each deduction if it was not written on my paper. The price we pay for courses, feedback should be included and I have never had a Professor refuse to tell me what is wrong with my paper, except this one. (I believe he never read the paper, to be honest.)

And I didn't call the Professor an asshole to his face, I told it to my academic advisor who is supposed to be "helping". In my experience my academic advisors have always been cool with letting me vent if I had an issue. My normal one recently quit and this guy was new. My fault for being honest with him when I didnt know him and didnt realize he too was an asshole.

You really need to learn to accept "no" as an answer as all professionals have to do. Your handling of this doesn't show a great deal of ability to handle professional communication, and to go on and call a professor, to his face or to another professional, a derogatory name just isn't a good idea.

[InRealLife45]

Originally Posted by Argonautomobile

This may not be what you want to hear and maybe it isn't my place to say it, but I think you may have become so fixated on a tiny imperfection that you've lost objectivity here. Your professor said a lot of really positive things here--you did well in the course. An A- is a good grade. Heck, as long as you passed GPAs start not mattering the further in your career you get. It was only when you pushed and pushed that the conversation started getting unproductive.

You can be a therapist. You are meant to be in graduate school. You are doing well. I think being sent to the disciplinary board is a little absurd, but don't freak out about it yet. It's a place to calmly state your grievances and settle the issue as to whether a doc's note excuses the late grade. Worse case scenario, they tell you you were rude, you apologize and move on with life. Good luck.

No, I decided not to make a big deal about the 1 point/A-grade. Yes it was due to psych meds side effects that I didn't anticipate, but at the end of the day I enrolled myself in the DBT program while I was in school and I made the choice to be med compliant, so any side effect from that choice is my responsibility so the consequences are my own.

Lesson learned: Don't take multiple new psych meds with unknown side effects when you are in graduate school and have **** to do.

And yes, I did get fixated on the grade initially bc I have a problem with equating self worth with my school performance. I have a lot in my life that is uncontrollable, but I am still an excellent student- that is under my control. When my performance was affected by something out of my control-unanticipated side effects- it made me feel more out of control and FRUSTRATED bc how can I fight that? How can I do my best academically if "getting better" mentally means dulling my brain and thought processes?

[InRealLife45]

Originally Posted by lolagrace

You really need to learn to accept "no" as an answer as all professionals have to do. Your handling of this doesn't show a great deal of ability to handle professional communication, and to go on and call a professor, to his face or to another professional, a derogatory name just isn't a good idea.

Even though I was approaching him as a student wanting specific feedback on an assignment, and not as a Professional?

I just don't understand how he has the right to refuse to do the job he was hired to do; teach and help us grow- and when I insist I'm the one being rude? Never had a professor refuse to give specific feedback except him. He says very generic things that make me think he doesnt read our papers. If he doesnt have time to read them, shouldnt a TA read them? Arent students entitled to feedback?

[InRealLife45]

Originally Posted by stopdog

It may be that taking a year or two away would be useful for you to regroup and try again. I don't think making conversations of these sorts public, even with info redacted, shows a great handling of interpersonal and professional competence. I would advise a law student of mine to withdraw for a period of time and try again. And this sort of thing would be considered an ethical problem in some graduate fields in my experience.

How is it an ethical problem? There is no expectation of confidentiality with e-mail. I havent violated any ethics by sharing this.

And- Im borderline. Clearly I have severe issues with interpersonal relations, I know that and my department chair knows that as I have shared it with her, that I struggle with that. It's something I am working on, how can I be expected to enter graduate school a ready made Professional and behave like a therapist when I am two years away from becoming one? I am a STUDENT.

Originally Posted by InRealLife45

Even though I was approaching him as a student wanting specific feedback on an assignment, and not as a Professional?

I just don't understand how he has the right to refuse to do the job he was hired to do; teach and help us grow- and when I insist I'm the one being rude? Never had a professor refuse to give specific feedback except him. He says very generic things that make me think he doesnt read our papers. If he doesnt have time to read them, shouldnt a TA read them? Arent students entitled to feedback?

When you are in a graduate program, you are really expected to handle yourself professionally and are under scrutiny for all interactions. I would think this is particularly true in a therapy program.

If you really wanted feedback (which is not how you started the conversation with the professor), the proper way to go about doing that would be to 1) accept the grade wasn't going to be changed 2) make an appointment to meet with the professor one-on-one for a conference so you could both have eyes on the paper in question together.

You are still placing the blame for this on the professor when the problem here lies in your ability to accept a very acceptable grade rather than accepting that your behavior was without boundaries, quite pushy, and very disrespectful. Even the way you are handling it right now, publishing the email conversation on a public forum, is showing very poor judgement and boundaries. This IS a problem for you that has shown previously and is certainly something you need to work on remedying.

[venusss]

A- does not mean something is wrong, it's just not top notch perfect to his standards. I had some professors who never gave 100% because they thought only God and them knew the subject so well.

Asking to explain why A- may come of confrontional. Calling somebody who has finished theire studies already and works in academia really is unprofessional and disrespectful. You can say things like that to your friends, but never on academic ground.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by InRealLife45

No, I decided not to make a big deal about the 1 point/A-grade. Yes it was due to psych meds side effects that I didn't anticipate, but at the end of the day I enrolled myself in the DBT program while I was in school and I made the choice to be med compliant, so any side effect from that choice is my responsibility so the consequences are my own.

Lesson learned: Don't take multiple new psych meds with unknown side effects when you are in graduate school and have **** to do.

And yes, I did get fixated on the grade initially bc I have a problem with equating self worth with my school performance. I have a lot in my life that is uncontrollable, but I am still an excellent student- that is under my control. When my performance was affected by something out of my control-unanticipated side effects- it made me feel more out of control and FRUSTRATED bc how can I fight that? How can I do my best academically if "getting better" mentally means dulling my brain and thought processes?

I am sorry this is happening, but a few thoughts come to mind:

First, an A- is still an excellent grade. A- students are still excellent students.

Second, your university almost certainly has a disabilities office, which helps not just those with physical or learning disabilities, but those whose academic performances may be affected by medication. Seek them out, either to help you in the future or perhaps do some mediation in the current situation.

Third, I sat on several different committees that judged grade disputes and student disciplinary issues at my old university. Disciplinary actions against students are not brought lightly by either faculty or academic support staff. Universities tend to frown upon frivolous disciplinary actions against students, i.e., whoever brought this action had their reasons for thinking it was merited. They may be wrong about that, but you need to demonstrate that to whomever is dealing with your case.

I'd approach the situation as calmly and maturely as possible. And what stopdog said about posting material like this on the internet is right on...you might want to have this thread deleted.

[InRealLife45]

Originally Posted by lolagrace

When you are in a graduate program, you are really expected to handle yourself professionally and are under scrutiny for all interactions. I would think this is particularly true in a therapy program.

If you really wanted feedback (which is not how you started the conversation with the professor), the proper way to go about doing that would be to 1) accept the grade wasn't going to be changed 2) make an appointment to meet with the professor one-on-one for a conference so you could both have eyes on the paper in question together.

You are still placing the blame for this on the professor when the problem here lies in your ability to accept a very acceptable grade rather than accepting that your behavior was without boundaries, quite pushy, and very disrespectful. Even the way you are handling it right now, publishing the email conversation on a public forum, is showing very poor judgement and boundaries. This IS a problem for you that has shown previously and is certainly something you need to work on remedying.

didnt start it that way because it was during the conversation that he made the comment about leniency. not before so it wasn't an issue before, it was about the grade in the beginning. focus shifted.

[InRealLife45]

Originally Posted by venusss

A- does not mean something is wrong, it's just not top notch perfect to his standards. I had some professors who never gave 100% because they thought only God and them knew the subject so well.

Asking to explain why A- may come of confrontional. Calling somebody who has finished theire studies already and works in academia really is unprofessional and disrespectful. You can say things like that to your friends, but never on academic ground.

I WAS talking to my friends! the academic adviser overheard and pulled me into his office! and no, i know why i got the A- - one point overall.

I wanted to know what was prong with the PAPER which was a different grade/different issue.

[Merecat]

I think Stopdog is right on this one, and to be honest, posting the discussion to a public message board is even more of a disciplinary issue. In training to be a therapist it's all relevant, your academic scores, how you cope with "imperfection, how you manage interpersonal relationships and disagreements, your ability to keep a sense of proportion (an A- is a very good grade) and how you conduct yourself at college. I don't know whether you're meant to be a therapist or not but I do think you seem to struggle a lot with boundaries and that's a key skill for therapists. I wonder if it helps to think about in terms of how you'd manage a disagreement with a client - insisting they give you a response, calling them an asshole and posting details of your disagreement in public would loose your license. How you manage other relationships is a good model for client/therapist interactions simply because clients will press your buttons like no one else can.

I'd be advising you to take time out, sort out your mental health and treatment and come back to it when you're stronger/more able to manage relationships professionally.

[Argonautomobile]

Originally Posted by InRealLife45

And yes, I did get fixated on the grade initially bc I have a problem with equating self worth with my school performance. I have a lot in my life that is uncontrollable, but I am still an excellent student- that is under my control. When my performance was affected by something out of my control-unanticipated side effects- it made me feel more out of control and FRUSTRATED bc how can I fight that?

I think this right here shows a lot of insight. You've really figured out the problem for yourself. It is really difficult to figure out what to do with frustration. You successfully completed an undergraduate program--no small task. Was there ever a time (in your undergraduate) when your academic performance wasn't up to your standard due to something out of your control? What did you do, then?

[Pennster]

Well, do you think you might just see this as another opportunity for feedback? It's a learning experience and you will get through it. It might be interesting to see what you can learn from it in terms of how both you feel about it all and how the system will respond to the whole situation. It sounds like you are going to have to go through the process now anyway, so maybe it will be less troubling for you personally to try to figure out the perspectives of everyone involved and see what is the best way you can show the administrators that you're willing to take this on as an opportunity for growth.

I can imagine it's stressful, particularly as you clearly take great care with your academic work.

[InRealLife45]

Originally Posted by Argonautomobile

I think this right here shows a lot of insight. You've really figured out the problem for yourself. It is really difficult to figure out what to do with frustration. You successfully completed an undergraduate program--no small task. Was there ever a time (in your undergraduate) when your academic performance wasn't up to your standard due to something out of your control? What did you do, then?

yea, a massive depression. Couldn't get out of bed. Dropped out of school and stewed in my depression for 2 and a half years, completely non-functional.

Took another 3 years in therapy with ex T trying to get my **** together so I could return to graduate school so I dont have to live the rest of my life on disability and getting housing assistance from the county.

So I went back to school, and academically am very successful. But I still struggle with interpersonal issues and triangulation. I'm aware of my issues.

[stopdog]

In graduate school, such as therapy and law and other fields where the graduates are going to have certain higher standards of care in dealing with other humans, it is not just the straight grade that will matter when a university comes to bestowing a degree. In my field, you get a degree but professors get sent an ethics form by the bar examiners. Things like what is posted on a facebook page and how the student handled conflict at school - and whether they got into weekend fights or threatened a faculty member do count - regardless of any diagnosis. It is not acceptable to get into fights or engage in unprofessional exchanges with other professionals just because of a diagnosis. Getting the diagnosis under control and then continuing would be my advice to any of my students.

[venusss]

So you deal with severe side effects and still score A-? Look at it this way, your brains work even when you are all effed up.

Now just improve your people skills, accept that imperfections are okay and that some people might be difficult to get along with... and you will go well.

But getting your own issues sorted should be number one priority for you now.

I think you feel that you are being treated unjustly. Whether or not you are, I think you would do well to accept that you need your tutor and professor to mark your work, give you a pass and perhaps to give you a reference when you finish. I would suggest you apologise for calling him an ********** and acknowledge to the board that you did not handle this well and that you have learnt from the situation. I don't think you will ever be able to persuade your tutors into believing your view of the situation, some things we just have to let go.

I may be misreading things, but it sounds to me like you're saying "I have x diagnosis so I'm allowed to do y." It may be better to accept "Because I have x I do y and that's my problem, I have to deal with that/remedy that/quit this course". A diagnosis is never an excuse. It might mean your diagnosis is interfering with your studies - that means you can't do the course. Just because the reason you can't do the course is your diagnosis doesn't mean you have a 'license' to 'misbehave'.

I worded some things poorly in this post, especially the last sentence - I hope my meaning is still clear. (English is not my first language. (And if you're about to call that an excuse also - I'm accepting that my problem might interfere with my ability to make myself clear and I'm not saying "You should understand me even though English is not my first language." I'm accepting the consequences of my problem - namely that you might not understand me.))

[InRealLife45]

Originally Posted by Pennster

Well, do you think you might just see this as another opportunity for feedback? It's a learning experience and you will get through it. It might be interesting to see what you can learn from it in terms of how both you feel about it all and how the system will respond to the whole situation. It sounds like you are going to have to go through the process now anyway, so maybe it will be less troubling for you personally to try to figure out the perspectives of everyone involved and see what is the best way you can show the administrators that you're willing to take this on as an opportunity for growth.

I can imagine it's stressful, particularly as you clearly take great care with your academic work.

Don't really think its going to go my way. I kind of feel like they are going to expel me or compel a leave from school.

Having issues with the program chair, too- The day of the email convo I contacted her via email for an appointment to discuss it saying it wasnt urgent and could she see me at some point in the next three weeks. She replied asking when I wanted to come in and I told her, but she never replied with an appointment. So it was never discussed, and then she put me in another class with this Professor next semester and I asked to be put in a different class and she said no without even hearing me out. So I told my friend I was frustrated with the whole situation, that I didnt feel like I could be in his class again and not have a negative interaction the next time he refused to explain his reasons for point deduction, and that I thought I needed more time to discuss it in therapy and get over it.

I told my friend I had contacted the chair and requested an appointment to discuss and in over three weeks she hadnt been able to find a time to meet with me bc she was "so busy" (my friend is the receptionist) and by then I was really worked up and about to cry so I ended the conversation and went to the lab to calm down and not cry.

A minute or so after that, my friend called the chair and told her i asked for an appointment three weeks ago and had not gotten one, so the chair said she would see me right then. My friend came to tell me, and I said no, I couldn't go right now (too near tears) and could I in an hour or so after I calmed down.

Program chair got mad that I didn't come, and then like an hour later the academic advisor sent over a referral to her for discipline for me, then another hour after that I got the email saying I was referred for discipline.

And in class last week she said, "When I don't like someone I don't have to say anything, they just know" and I kind of felt like she was talking about me (I'm assuimg).

Honestly earlier this semester she really liked me and would see me whenever I called to ask for a few minutes, and I'm really not sure what I did to upset her so much to the point that I cant get an appointment at all in a whole month.

[atisketatasket]

You're not going to want to hear this, but I've looked over your dropbox file and the professor has done everything he should have done in the situation from the university's perspective, including explaining quite early on that the grade was mainly due to the lateness of an assignment.

Additionally, while "sick" as in pneumonia may not merit official accommodations, but is worked out between professor and student, "sick" as in psychiatric diagnosis and on medication long-term should, but you have to apply for such accommodations. You cannot bring them up post facto, whether or not the department chair knows about them.

I can see both sides of the coin in that instance - I can imagine she's pissed you're pressing for an appointment and then when she makes time for you you don't come, but I think she should've listened to your explanation instead of getting mad.

Did you send a follow-up email when she didn't reply to your email asking for an appointment?