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  #26  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 04:54 PM
hamster-bamster hamster-bamster is offline
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Originally Posted by NoCake View Post
Do you think it would be God's fault that you were not born as the 1%?
This is not a good analogy. While 99% of people are not born into the 1% by wealth, they have a theoretical opportunity to attain it (Steve Jobs and the like, without checking his actual placement as per the moment of death but you get the point, American dream etc. etc.). Homosexuals are a substantial minority of people at such a severe disadvantage as to never be able to achieve normal sexual expression (normal to them, per their orientation) if they are not allowed to be with other homosexuals. They cannot attain anything. So if you try to use your analogy, it would be better to compare homosexuals with people who are wheel-chair-bound from birth. Those people can never attain health and mobility of able-bodied people. But we try to do something as a society to bridge the gap between the level of mobility of wheel-chair-bound and able-bodied people - we have ramps, we have accessible restrooms and other facilities, we have ADA in US, etc. - we try to bridge the gap to the extent possible. Well, if you think that being born a homosexual is some sort of an unfortunate anomaly allowed by the creator, fine, I have no problem with that, but then society should intervene and try to do the same vis-a-vis homosexuals as it does vis-a-vis the physically handicapped - give them equal rights to bridge the gap.

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  #27  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 04:58 PM
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It is written that by following the commandments one will gain access to heaven.
I really don't mean to argue. But I am very much in love with God.

It is write IN THE BIBLE that acts will NOT get you into heaven. Only asking Jesus into your heart will get you into heaven.

Nobody is perfect.and never will be. Everyone sins. You are suppose to try to avoid sin. But it is impossible to succeed. You will sin no matter what. Even evil thoughts are a sin.
God still loves you, regardless
  #28  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by GirlOfManyFaces View Post
That was the problem with my case. The detective didn't want to have to charge a 17 year old "child" with rape. So he said it was consensual. And it was NOT! It was very much rape. Nobody listens to me though. They just think I'm trying to stay out of trouble by not admitting to having sex... But it wasn't my choice. That's why I feel so much at fault for what happened. He forced himself on me and I couldn't stop him. So this is what I get...
Oh so he was underage and they tried to protect him? But you are more underage than him! Why would consent matter in your case?? Is there no statutory rape in your jurisdiction? You are too young to consent.
  #29  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by GirlOfManyFaces View Post
That was the problem with my case. The detective didn't want to have to charge a 17 year old "child" with rape. So he said it was consensual. And it was NOT! It was very much rape. Nobody listens to me though. They just think I'm trying to stay out of trouble by not admitting to having sex... But it wasn't my choice. That's why I feel so much at fault for what happened. He forced himself on me and I couldn't stop him. So this is what I get...
Dear this sounds more like politics than law to me... It is a serious issue we face in America today... You did nothing wrong. You stood up for what you believe in and that's what counts. You can't blame yourself for not being able to help yourself or others at times. It is a hard lesson to learn and I still have problems with it.
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  #30  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by GirlOfManyFaces View Post
I really don't mean to argue. But I am very much in love with God.

It is write IN THE BIBLE that acts will NOT get you into heaven. Only asking Jesus into your heart will get you into heaven.

Nobody is perfect.and never will be. Everyone sins. You are suppose to try to avoid sin. But it is impossible to succeed. You will sin no matter what. Even evil thoughts are a sin.
God still loves you, regardless
No offence taken at all. You are right.
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Thanks for this!
GirlOfManyFaces
  #31  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 05:03 PM
hamster-bamster hamster-bamster is offline
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from findlaw.com:

For example, in some states sexual relations with someone less than 12 or 14 years old constitutes a first degree felony, while sex with someone older but still below the age of consent, might be a misdemeanor or lower level felony. In other states, any act of statutory rape constitutes a felony, with serious and sometimes mandatory jail sentences resulting.
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  #32  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by hamster-bamster View Post
This is not a good analogy. While 99% of people are not born into the 1% by wealth, they have a theoretical opportunity to attain it (Steve Jobs and the like, without checking his actual placement as per the moment of death but you get the point, American dream etc. etc.). Homosexuals are a substantial minority of people at such a severe disadvantage as to never be able to achieve normal sexual expression (normal to them, per their orientation) if they are not allowed to be with other homosexuals. They cannot attain anything. So if you try to use your analogy, it would be better to compare homosexuals with people who are wheel-chair-bound from birth. Those people can never attain health and mobility of able-bodied people. But we try to do something as a society to bridge the gap between the level of mobility of wheel-chair-bound and able-bodied people - we have ramps, we have accessible restrooms and other facilities, we have ADA in US, etc. - we try to bridge the gap to the extent possible. Well, if you think that being born a homosexual is some sort of an unfortunate anomaly allowed by the creator, fine, I have no problem with that, but then society should intervene and try to do the same vis-a-vis homosexuals as it does vis-a-vis the physically handicapped - give them equal rights to bridge the gap.
I wasn't comparing the 1% with homosexuals. I was only suggesting that people tend to end up where they are simply because of bad luck and the actions of themselves or others.

And I have said nothing negative of homosexuals themselves.

Anyway the whole detective situation seems odd to me.
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"Have patience with all things, but, first of all with yourself."

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Last edited by NoCake; Feb 12, 2013 at 07:50 PM.
  #33  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 07:42 PM
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GirlOfManyFaces, were you given a lawyer or not?
  #34  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by NoCake View Post
I wasn't comparing the 1% with homosexuals. I was only suggesting that people tend to end up where they are simply because of bad luck and the actions of themselves or others.
Agreed about bad luck. But we try to compensate for that. We have remedial education programs for the learning disabled etc. Shelters for the victims of domestic abuse. SSI for those who cannot work due to health issues (SSDI is insurance so you pay into it as you go, but SSI is pure aid). Etc. etc. If drawing the card of a minority orientation is bad luck, how would you compensate for it? How would you deliver a level playing field?

Well, it is a very simple problem with a very straightforward solution that does not cost any money, unlike remedial programs, SSI, and shelters. Just stop calling homosexuality bad names and accept it for what it is - an innocent variation of humanity. Interestingly enough, if you apply this solution, then the "bad luck" situation more or less evaporates into thin air. The whole problem disappears. No more need to compensate for anything.

And regarding actions: no, people do not choose sexual orientation so there is no action implicated in orientation. I have been well advised of the many benefits of the lesbian lifestyle but I just cannot force myself into something that seems so foreign and weird to me. The reverse is probably equally true. Sure, there are some flexible people in the middle who can vacillate between the poles of orientation as they go through their lives, but for the rest of us it is just a feature that we come with. And you cannot change it - you can dye your hair but not force-change orientation. So actions are irrelevant. What precedes actions is choice. In order to complete an action, you need to be able to choose it in the first place. You just cannot accomplish it with the orientation - there is no choice. Which brings us back to the issue of fairness - it is unfair to fault someone for having a harmless feature that he or she cannot disable or modify/alter.
  #35  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 08:49 PM
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Oh so he was underage and they tried to protect him? But you are more underage than him! Why would consent matter in your case?? Is there no statutory rape in your jurisdiction? You are too young to consent.
In my state, 17 is an adult if certain laws were broken. Such as rape. So technically he should have been charged. But that let it slid "this time"

All I know is, he did something that wasn't aloud and didn't get punished. I was punished. Which I really don't understand....
  #36  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 08:52 PM
hamster-bamster hamster-bamster is offline
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Originally Posted by GirlOfManyFaces View Post
In my state, 17 is an adult if certain laws were broken. Such as rape. So technically he should have been charged. But that let it slid "this time"

All I know is, he did something that wasn't aloud and didn't get punished. I was punished. Which I really don't understand....
That is totally, totally unfair to you. It is bad enough to suffer the rape and its consequences and now you are in addition made to suffer from unfair punishment.
  #37  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 08:54 PM
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GirlOfManyFaces, were you given a lawyer or not?
No. They wouldn't let us charge him. And MY law person, who is supposed to be on my side, told me he didn't want to charge the 17 year old. So the law person (I'm not sure what to call him) LIED!!!! And told my mom that it wasn't rape. When it CLEARLY was! I still have nightmares of the two times it happened....
  #38  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by NoCake View Post
I wasn't comparing the 1% with homosexuals. I was only suggesting that people tend to end up where they are simply because of bad luck and the actions of themselves or others.

And I have said nothing negative of homosexuals themselves.

Anyway the whole detective situation seems odd to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamster-bamster View Post
Agreed about bad luck. But we try to compensate for that. We have remedial education programs for the learning disabled etc. Shelters for the victims of domestic abuse. SSI for those who cannot work due to health issues (SSDI is insurance so you pay into it as you go, but SSI is pure aid). Etc. etc. If drawing the card of a minority orientation is bad luck, how would you compensate for it? How would you deliver a level playing field?

Well, it is a very simple problem with a very straightforward solution that does not cost any money, unlike remedial programs, SSI, and shelters. Just stop calling homosexuality bad names and accept it for what it is - an innocent variation of humanity. Interestingly enough, if you apply this solution, then the "bad luck" situation more or less evaporates into thin air. The whole problem disappears. No more need to compensate for anything.

And regarding actions: no, people do not choose sexual orientation so there is no action implicated in orientation. I have been well advised of the many benefits of the lesbian lifestyle but I just cannot force myself into something that seems so foreign and weird to me. The reverse is probably equally true. Sure, there are some flexible people in the middle who can vacillate between the poles of orientation as they go through their lives, but for the rest of us it is just a feature that we come with. And you cannot change it - you can dye your hair but not force-change orientation. So actions are irrelevant. What precedes actions is choice. In order to complete an action, you need to be able to choose it in the first place. You just cannot accomplish it with the orientation - there is no choice. Which brings us back to the issue of fairness - it is unfair to fault someone for having a harmless feature that he or she cannot disable or modify/alter.

I have no idea what you two are talking about, nor do I understand how this pertains to either of my situations. I'm just confused.
  #39  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by GirlOfManyFaces View Post
No. They wouldn't let us charge him. And MY law person, who is supposed to be on my side, told me he didn't want to charge the 17 year old. So the law person (I'm not sure what to call him) LIED!!!! And told my mom that it wasn't rape. When it CLEARLY was! I still have nightmares of the two times it happened....
He was not even supposed to tell your mom what it was or was not. He was supposed to protect your rights.
Thanks for this!
GirlOfManyFaces
  #40  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by hamster-bamster View Post
Agreed about bad luck. But we try to compensate for that. We have remedial education programs for the learning disabled etc. Shelters for the victims of domestic abuse. SSI for those who cannot work due to health issues (SSDI is insurance so you pay into it as you go, but SSI is pure aid). Etc. etc. If drawing the card of a minority orientation is bad luck, how would you compensate for it? How would you deliver a level playing field?

Well, it is a very simple problem with a very straightforward solution that does not cost any money, unlike remedial programs, SSI, and shelters. Just stop calling homosexuality bad names and accept it for what it is - an innocent variation of humanity. Interestingly enough, if you apply this solution, then the "bad luck" situation more or less evaporates into thin air. The whole problem disappears. No more need to compensate for anything.

And regarding actions: no, people do not choose sexual orientation so there is no action implicated in orientation. I have been well advised of the many benefits of the lesbian lifestyle but I just cannot force myself into something that seems so foreign and weird to me. The reverse is probably equally true. Sure, there are some flexible people in the middle who can vacillate between the poles of orientation as they go through their lives, but for the rest of us it is just a feature that we come with. And you cannot change it - you can dye your hair but not force-change orientation. So actions are irrelevant. What precedes actions is choice. In order to complete an action, you need to be able to choose it in the first place. You just cannot accomplish it with the orientation - there is no choice. Which brings us back to the issue of fairness - it is unfair to fault someone for having a harmless feature that he or she cannot disable or modify/alter.
I never faulted anyone for being homosexual nor have I labeled it in any way. I simply stated that I disagree with it. I'm not telling anyone what to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlOfManyFaces View Post
In my state, 17 is an adult if certain laws were broken. Such as rape. So technically he should have been charged. But that let it slid "this time"

All I know is, he did something that wasn't aloud and didn't get punished. I was punished. Which I really don't understand....
Whatever the reason it isn't lawful and it's unfair to you. And unfortunately your parents would have to have gotten involved to be able to press charges. This entire situation is not your fault at all.
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Thanks for this!
GirlOfManyFaces
  #41  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 09:27 PM
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I have no idea what you two are talking about, nor do I understand how this pertains to either of my situations. I'm just confused.
You are OK, do not worry about it. You said that you would be disowned if someone in the position of authority found out about your lesbian leanings. Well, it is unfair to fault you, especially to the point of disowning you, for something that is a) harmless and b) outside of your control. That is how it pertained to your OP.
Thanks for this!
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  #42  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 09:47 PM
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He was not even supposed to tell your mom what it was or was not. He was supposed to protect your rights.
Well he did. And now I've suffered his consequences while he is hitting on my best friends at MY SCHOOL. (I grew up there)

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Originally Posted by NoCake View Post

Whatever the reason it isn't lawful and it's unfair to you. And unfortunately your parents would have to have gotten involved to be able to press charges. This entire situation is not your fault at all.

My parents DID get involved. It that just made it more hell. And it really is my fault. I could have prevent this whole thing and didn't.
  #43  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 09:49 PM
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And it really is my fault. I could have prevent this whole thing and didn't.
What could have you done to prevent the whole thing save for disappearing from the face of this Earth? He raped you. You did not rape yourself. You did not make him rape you.
  #44  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 09:51 PM
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One of the definitions of rape is "any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person".

You cannot prevent other people from forcing something on you - it is their action that forces you.
  #45  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 10:12 PM
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I never faulted anyone for being homosexual nor have I labeled it in any way. I simply stated that I disagree with it. I'm not telling anyone what to do.
That gets us back to the trees growing. They do not choose to grow - they just grow. Homosexuals do not choose to be homosexuals - they just are. Homosexuality is a feature that comes with those individuals - it is not an opinion or a position, hence it is impossible to disagree with it. You can disagree with views, opinions, positions, teachings, theories, hypotheses, etc. etc. but not with people's immutable characteristics. It is like my cat Tommy is all black - he is all black. It is a fact of his existence. It is not his view or opinion or choice or statement or manifesto - he just happens to be all black. It is not my view or opinion on him either.

Should black cats be fed as much as Maine Coons? Should homosexuals have equal rights to marriage as heterosexuals? Those are questions that different people would have different answers to and we can agree or disagree till the cows come home, but we cannot disagree with the existence of black cats or homosexuals.
  #46  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 10:17 PM
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I have no idea what you two are talking about, nor do I understand how this pertains to either of my situations. I'm just confused.
Honey, no offense meant here, but you've got a lot of growing up, experiences, learning, etc. to understand the magnitude of this brewing convo between the two...Which in general is the solution to the original question here. You are young and have so much time ahead of you to learn who you are, what you believe, and so on. Please take care of yourself and for gods sake slow down in life. You are trying to move way too fast.
Thanks for this!
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  #47  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by hamster-bamster View Post
That gets us back to the trees growing. They do not choose to grow - they just grow. Homosexuals do not choose to be homosexuals - they just are. Homosexuality is a feature that comes with those individuals - it is not an opinion or a position, hence it is impossible to disagree with it. You can disagree with views, opinions, positions, teachings, theories, hypotheses, etc. etc. but not with people's immutable characteristics. It is like my cat Tommy is all black - he is all black. It is a fact of his existence. It is not his view or opinion or choice or statement or manifesto - he just happens to be all black. It is not my view or opinion on him either.

Should black cats be fed as much as Maine Coons? Should homosexuals have equal rights to marriage as heterosexuals? Those are questions that different people would have different answers to and we can agree or disagree till the cows come home, but we cannot disagree with the existence of black cats or homosexuals.
We cannot choose our feelings but we do choose how to act upon them. I have never argued that such feelings don't exist. And I have already argued that we cannot possibly make all of our decisions on feelings alone.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from or why you are taking this opinion so seriously. I have said nothing to offend you or any other homosexual. I have not labeled you or judged you in any shape form or fashion. My religion disagrees with homosexuality. I do not hold ill will towards any. All I ask is that you respect my opinion as I respect yours. I am not here for debate. I am only here to help a friend.
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Thanks for this!
GirlOfManyFaces
  #48  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamster-bamster View Post
That gets us back to the trees growing. They do not choose to grow - they just grow. Homosexuals do not choose to be homosexuals - they just are. Homosexuality is a feature that comes with those individuals - it is not an opinion or a position, hence it is impossible to disagree with it. You can disagree with views, opinions, positions, teachings, theories, hypotheses, etc. etc. but not with people's immutable characteristics. It is like my cat Tommy is all black - he is all black. It is a fact of his existence. It is not his view or opinion or choice or statement or manifesto - he just happens to be all black. It is not my view or opinion on him either.

Should black cats be fed as much as Maine Coons? Should homosexuals have equal rights to marriage as heterosexuals? Those are questions that different people would have different answers to and we can agree or disagree till the cows come home, but we cannot disagree with the existence of black cats or homosexuals.
Thank you, Hamster-bamster. It's nice to have a "straight" person go to bat for us "homo-sexuals". Nobody talks about the trysexuals though....the ones that try anything? Oh well.
As far as the legal issue that is rolling around here, I am not sure why the person that represented the OP is not termed "lawyer", although I don't know what country the OP lives in. Usually RAPE=RAPE. Maybe because it happened twice ( with the same BF), then the thoughts of pressing charges changed. It's all very confusing .Good luck to the OP. You are young and wonderful and you have plenty of time to figure things out. Breathe. No one is moving to Mars. It's OK.
Thanks for this!
GirlOfManyFaces
  #49  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamster-bamster View Post
That gets us back to the trees growing. They do not choose to grow - they just grow. Homosexuals do not choose to be homosexuals - they just are. Homosexuality is a feature that comes with those individuals - it is not an opinion or a position, hence it is impossible to disagree with it. You can disagree with views, opinions, positions, teachings, theories, hypotheses, etc. etc. but not with people's immutable characteristics. It is like my cat Tommy is all black - he is all black. It is a fact of his existence. It is not his view or opinion or choice or statement or manifesto - he just happens to be all black. It is not my view or opinion on him either.

Should black cats be fed as much as Maine Coons? Should homosexuals have equal rights to marriage as heterosexuals? Those are questions that different people would have different answers to and we can agree or disagree till the cows come home, but we cannot disagree with the existence of black cats or homosexuals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCake View Post
We cannot choose our feelings but we do choose how to act upon them. I have never argued that such feelings don't exist. And I have already argued that we cannot possibly make all of our decisions on feelings alone.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from or why you are taking this opinion so seriously. I have said nothing to offend you or any other homosexual. I have not labeled you or judged you in any shape form or fashion. My religion disagrees with homosexuality. I do not hold ill will towards any. All I ask is that you respect my opinion as I respect yours. I am not here for debate. I am only here to help a friend.

As much as I love hearing everyone's opinion. I really don't care for arguments. And would very much appreciate it if you would move this conversation to a PM.

I don't mean to be rude. It's just stressing me out more...
  #50  
Old Feb 12, 2013, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Freefall1974 View Post
Thank you, Hamster-bamster. It's nice to have a "straight" person go to bat for us "homo-sexuals". Nobody talks about the trysexuals though....the ones that try anything? Oh well.
As far as the legal issue that is rolling around here, I am not sure why the person that represented the OP is not termed "lawyer", although I don't know what country the OP lives in. Usually RAPE=RAPE. Maybe because it happened twice ( with the same BF), then the thoughts of pressing charges changed. It's all very confusing .Good luck to the OP. You are young and wonderful and you have plenty of time to figure things out. Breathe. No one is moving to Mars. It's OK.

What does OP stand for?
I'm in the US by the way.

Thank you for caring enough to say anything. It means a lot.
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