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Old Nov 29, 2013, 12:50 PM
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comicgeek007 comicgeek007 is offline
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Let me start this off by saying my fiance and I are both consenting (albeit young) adults and so this really shouldn't be an issue so it is extra frustrating that it is.

Because of unfortunate circumstances, I go to college a few states over from my fiance and neither of us owns a car, so visiting is infrequent and short-lived. Because of largely financial reasons (ie so he can save up money for us to be able to live together sooner), he does online college and lives with his parents, while at the same time working.

At the same time, everyone - us, and our parents - are religious and believe that sex before marriage is a big no-no. Why is this a problem, you ask, if all of us agree on this?

Well, the problem is there is a distinct belief disconnect between our respective parents' beliefs and our beliefs. Simply put, we and our parents do not agree what defines 'marriage'. Our parents are convinced that the end-all-be-all is me wearing a froofy white dress and us shoving cakes in each other's face while in a church. However, my fiance and I agree that marriage is actually about the promise of commitment and loyalty between the couple, with God being the only necessary witness. Sure this is not the legal definition of marriage, but the religious definition of marriage was never about taxes, anyway, it was what it symbolizes.

On a related note, this is also why I think shotgun weddings are stupid, even if there is a child involved -you did not make a spiritual commitment to each other, someone just caught you with your hand in the proverbial cookie jar and so it is all about making them (the person who found out) happy. And let's not even get me started on the idea of forcing someone to make life-changing decisions based on your moral compass with no regard to theirs, but I digress.

Anyway, so I'm staying over with him for the short break I have before exams start. We are staying in separate rooms, separate floors even. Miraculously, the other night we had a few hours of uninterrupted alone time and made the decision to give our virginity to each other, which had been a big deal at the time despite the fact that we have had sex a number of times before - just, you know, not intercourse (because that is magically more actual sex than anything else). We used protection bequeathed to us by a knowing and kind friend of mine. And since part of our beliefs require that if you are not asexual, consummating your marriage is what 'seals the deal', we are spiritually married and that is what counts.

I am highly frustrated about how paranoid we seem to have to be that our (particularly his at the moment) parents will disapprove of our affectionate-but-not-sexual cuddling and would have a cow if they found out about anything more sexual than playful pecks on the lips. Don't get me wrong, our parents are awesome people. There's just this. And it's frustrating.

I completely understand being against voyeurism and honestly find the idea disgusting (I don't even enjoy porn), but what's done in a private setting should be between us and dictated by our personal beliefs.

You know what I would absolutely adore? Being able to participate in the ultimate expression of love with the man I intend to be with for the rest of my life without fear of all the bad things that can happen when your religious parents find out you actually are in fact, sexually attracted to your fiance and you have a slightly different moral compass than them.

What can/should we do, and can someone answer why if we are adults and we have made this very personal decision together, why this should even matter?

TLDR: Religion and sex should not be mutually exclusive things. And right now you can almost literally cut the sexual tension between my fiance and I with a knife. This is not at all how I wanted to spend the few days in six months that I get to see him.
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  #2  
Old Nov 29, 2013, 02:54 PM
EmilysZoo EmilysZoo is offline
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I think I'm a little confused as to what you are asking. Are you asking for permission to have sex with a person whom you've already had sex with? Are you wanting to ask your parents to let you have sex in their house because you now consider yourselves married?

It seems like you were able to be alone for a few hours, the sexual tension was too much, you decided to spiritually give yourselves to one another (intercourse), and now you are trying to relieve some guilt about this action by saying it's ok because it's what you believed all along.

I assume you are over the age of 18 since you are both in college. You are now adults and should be able to do what you want. True, you have to respect your parents and not behave inappropriately in their presence/house, but what is it the two of you really want?
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  #3  
Old Nov 29, 2013, 06:47 PM
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Harley47 Harley47 is offline
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Kudos to you and your maturity. I wish more people your (well, "our" I guess is more appropriate if you're in college, but you get the point) held it with the gravity that you do. I find that admirable.

That said, I did lose track of what precisely your question was, so do forgive me for that. I'll sort of address everything I can think of in the hopes that I'll hit the nail on the head somewhere.

As far as your parents go, you two are consenting, legal adults, which in one regard sort of ends the debate right there, if push came to shove. That said, I again find it admirable that you respect their opinions enough to incorporate that into your relationship. Speaking frankly, they'd be, with all due respect, rather dense if they didn't put two and two together and sort of naturally assume sexual attraction is at least present among you two...sort of comes with the whole "dating" thing. You, of course, know them better than I, but were they to find out, I would hardly imagine it as that much of a blindside. They aren't, I don't suspect, going to be totally thrilled with the idea...there's the natural parental concerns of "what ifs," if you take my meaning, the simple fact their daughter is having sex (as an older brother, I get upset when my younger sister, who is six, goes through that puppy love stage in elementary school. Imagine the same principle on a larger scale), and the concern you may end up hurt. That all said, if you are able to articulate your point as well to them as you were to us on what you think about relationships, then I can't see much point of objection.

Between you two, it sounds like there is a mutual anxiety over getting caught or "found out" by your parents. Is that correct? If that's the case, you sound like a younger version of myself fearing the omnipotent parent. And you mention the sexual tension...without me trying to pry, if you've already made the proverbial leap, what's the hold up? I would need a little more information in that regard before I could offer anything less general. However, that said, you both, based on what you've said, seem to hold relationships, sex, and what you two have in a high degree of respect. Nothing has changed overnight after this. You two shared a special, meaningful moment with one another that you're both giving a great degree of reverence. Again, admirable. But this isn't a total paradigm shift...cherish what you had and hold it in line to your beliefs, and continue your relationship as you would with this held into consideration.

Going back to the parents, you seem, based on what I could infer from your post, that you seem to intent on telling them, which I can, to an extent, see...you rather sound like myself in that regard. However, and I don't say this with any deceptive intentions, it's not strictly necessary that you report on your sex life to your parents. Say, for example, you don't. You two get married in the ceremonial sense. Do you think they'd expect to know then? What, then, is your obligation to tell them if you considered yourself married in the more spiritual sense? This is your relationship, your privacy. Just my two cents in that regard. As long as you two keep what I'm gathering as a mature attitude on the matter and continue to practice safely (an old friend of mine here used to be able to quote the statistical probability of anything...er, "surprising"....happening under condoms and birth control to the number. I can't, but it's near statistically insignificant), I'd say your fine.

Sorry for the rather broad reply, but I couldn't quite pin down what you specifically were seeking advice for. I'd be happy to give it another go later on.

Kudos to you both for what you have, and God bless you both.

Hugs,
Harley
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  #4  
Old Dec 06, 2013, 09:16 PM
hamster-bamster hamster-bamster is offline
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Like Harley, I have found the account touching, but have been unable to spot a well-articulated question in the post.
  #5  
Old Dec 06, 2013, 11:08 PM
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Harley47 Harley47 is offline
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Lol Speaking of that old friend of mine ...what is it Hammy, something akin to .01% of a probability for both the condom and birth control failing? Lower? You always had the upper hand in numbers.
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  #6  
Old Dec 06, 2013, 11:32 PM
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eskielover eskielover is offline
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If I'm reading what you seem to be saying....now that you did it....you want his parents to just allow you to sleep in the same bed???? IN THEIR HOUSE UNDER THE VALUES THEY HAVE......in other words, it sounds like you want them to change their values because you did it in their house????

IMO......what you do in your own private time together is your business.....what parents values are is their business.....& nothing is going to change. Parents are entitled to have & to hold their value system in their own house. My daughter lives with her BF......but you can betcha if they come to my house....they have separate rooms because those are the values I HOLD. Sometimes you just have to accept some things are what they are.....DBT calls that radical acceptance.....just deal with it the best you can.

It doesn't change how you feel for each other.....tension is tension....there will always be things that cause tension in our lives sex or otherwise....do learn to deal with it because it's just part of life IMO.

I may have gotten it wrong what you were getting at, but this seemed to be the direction your words were going.
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  #7  
Old Dec 06, 2013, 11:33 PM
hamster-bamster hamster-bamster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harley47 View Post
Lol Speaking of that old friend of mine ...what is it Hammy, something akin to .01% of a probability for both the condom and birth control failing? Lower? You always had the upper hand in numbers.
I checked online for the probability of mirena and condoms failing simultaneously, and!

you were almost spot on.
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  #8  
Old Dec 11, 2013, 03:21 PM
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danvb danvb is offline
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You asked why it should matter. I don't know why it matters. That's a question that only YOU can answer. I certainly don't mean to sound flippant, but if you're both adults, I'm not sure why you would even question whether or not it should matter. Granted, you're both acting in ways that your parents don't approve, but, I dunno. It seems like your values and religious convictions are just as much of the problem as anyone elses. It sounds like both you and your partner considered yourself to be adults and wanted to have sex, so you did. But now, you don't know how to deal with the consequences of your actions. Of course your parents aren't going to sanction something that is counter to their values and beliefs! But then, you knew that when you went ahead and had sex. Now you're trying to figure out what to do about it.
If you ARE an adult, you make your own decisions and you accept the responsibility for the results of those decisions.
So, there is no easy way out. I'm not faulting you for having sex. God only knows that those pressures are damned hard to resist. But, you both made a choice so now it's time to BE an adult. You've done something that you knew both of your parents would not approve of. If it matters to you that you make things right with them, I urge you to try to do so. But that isn't something you HAVE to do. The choice is yours to make. No one can tell you what you should or should not do, or for that matter, WHY any of this matters.
  #9  
Old Dec 11, 2013, 05:50 PM
hamster-bamster hamster-bamster is offline
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Oh, Eskie, I got it! I know a family in which the mom, a German prude, placed her eldest son's gf in a separate bedroom when she visited. But there was no talk of values, it was just attributed to her prudishness.

OK, Comic, if Eskie read you right, then the following is a letter I would send to your parents, cc'ing the husband (I am calling him your husband because that is who he is to you) and signing with both your names.

"Dear parents,

We are writing to inform you of a happiest occasion - we have consummated our relationship and become Husband and Wife in the eyes of God, with God being the sole witness we needed to be there when we promise one another commitment and loyalty.

Please congratulate us!

Don't you worry - all the materialistic attributes of a contemporary wedding ceremony are yet to come. There will be a white dress and there will be a cake and a church full of guests. We know that those things are super important to you, so we will do all of them in order to make you happy. For us, those materialistic attributes diminish and trivialize the importance of our becoming a couple. Sure we can order flowers, engage a photographer, book a hotel, etc., but taking those steps, which can be outsourced to a professional event planner, has absolutely nothing to do with the sacred act of consummating a marriage. When we started thinking of what would be left of our wedding night if we decide to have it after the wedding, tired, inebriated, and frazzled, we unanimously agreed to separate consummation of our marriage from the event planning side of the marriage. After all, we can outsource the event planning part, but we cannot and would not want to outsource consummating our marriage!

So we are now happy newlyweds with the formal festivities to follow in due course.

Cheers,

ABC and XYZ"

and I would not go on to ask that you be placed in one bed when at their house. I would just put it this way and rest your case.

Good luck.



By the way, you said it very well -

Well, the problem is there is a distinct belief disconnect between our respective parents' beliefs and our beliefs. Simply put, we and our parents do not agree what defines 'marriage'. Our parents are convinced that the end-all-be-all is me wearing a froofy white dress and us shoving cakes in each other's face while in a church. However, my fiance and I agree that marriage is actually about the promise of commitment and loyalty between the couple, with God being the only necessary witness. Sure this is not the legal definition of marriage, but the religious definition of marriage was never about taxes, anyway, it was what it symbolizes.
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  #10  
Old Dec 11, 2013, 05:57 PM
hamster-bamster hamster-bamster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilysZoo View Post
It seems like you were able to be alone for a few hours, the sexual tension was too much, you decided to spiritually give yourselves to one another (intercourse), and now you are trying to relieve some guilt about this action by saying it's ok because it's what you believed all along.
This is not a correct reading of the OP. OP feels no guilt. I am surprised you read it that way - it almost seems as if you were projecting something from your own world onto OP. Comic... writes very well and it is clear that she 1) does not feel guilt; 2) does not believe that she is expected to feel guilt. Moreover, I think she is on the right track in that she, more or less, realizes that the beliefs held by her and her man are superior in terms of meaning and symbolism to the beliefs held by her parents, and I totally agree with her.
  #11  
Old Dec 11, 2013, 06:16 PM
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It's wonderful that you have different beliefs than either of your parents and want to hold to those beliefs- that part I got. I'm admittedly not entirely clear on what those beliefs are.

here's the part you are not going to like:
You basically threw in your so's parents' face that you have no respect for their beliefs by going completely against what they believe under their roof while they were hosting you.

Don't be surprised if they completely flip their lids when you try to present it as an adult decision or sharing of spirituality or whatever it actually was. Be prepared for this.

the best way to respond is to acknowledge that you probably could have gone about it another way.

how?
By saving a bit of money, over time, going to an inexpensive motel for a couple nights.
i don't disapprove of what you did, and frankly, who cares if I do?

but ultimately, you really just completely disrespected your hosts and now express frustration with their SEEMING disrespect of their beliefs.

I'm kind of confused how that all works together.

but really, you should apologize and establish boundaries if you want them to respect your beliefs, and the two of you as a legitimate ADULT married couple.
I don't say that to shame you or anything like that, but that [that you have been disrespectful to them] is likely the way they will view it.

I wouldn't blame them either.

ETA: also, pretty much everything that danvb said.

Ha, and you thought I was done!
This:
Quote:
I completely understand being against voyeurism and honestly find the idea disgusting (I don't even enjoy porn), but what's done in a private setting should be between us and dictated by our personal beliefs.
When you are in another's home, it is not a private setting.
  #12  
Old Dec 11, 2013, 07:01 PM
hamster-bamster hamster-bamster is offline
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They do not have to say where the consummated the marriage. That would be too much information.
  #13  
Old Dec 11, 2013, 07:08 PM
Anonymous24413
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Originally Posted by hamster-bamster View Post
They do not have to say where the consummated the marriage. That would be too much information.
You are absolutely right that there is no obligation for anyone to say anything to anyone.
It would be the most mature thing to be respectful of another's morals and beliefs, however.

That respect ideally goes both ways; obviously there is no one specific way to demonstrate that respect.
Thanks for this!
hamster-bamster
  #14  
Old Dec 11, 2013, 07:14 PM
hamster-bamster hamster-bamster is offline
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Originally Posted by JosieTheGirl View Post
When you are in another's home, it is not a private setting.
It is a semi-private setting. You are not supposed to play loud music if you were asked not to, you are supposed to pitch in by separating recycling and trash so the hosts do not have to, etc. I try to cook for my hosts when I am staying with friends overnight or more, so that they remember me as a welcome guest. Loading the dishwasher is a nice gesture, unless the hosts have to have their dishwasher loaded "just so", and then you do not want to interfere. Those things. But say, if I masturbate at night while I am staying with friends, I keep it quiet (which is difficult for me). I do not ask my hosts whether I can masturbate in their house - it would be a ridiculous question. I would not scream at the top of my lungs, of course.

It seems that the analogy here is as follows: had the couple consummated the marriage in plain view of everybody without asking whether it was OK, that would have been akin to screaming at the top of one's lungs whilst masturbating. But since they did it in private, I do not see how the hosts' sensibilities would be affected.

Comic... will they figure out that you consummated at their residence? Is it important where you did?
  #15  
Old Dec 18, 2013, 12:06 PM
jadzea jadzea is offline
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I have a few comment to make in response to this post. I have lived a number of years and I have to honestly say that very few people I have known announced when they first had sex with their partner. Sometimes I knew by the way they acted toward each other and for a few days they could not wipe the smiles off thier faces. You do not have to tell your parents. Plus, it sounds like you planned to move in together eventually anyway. I'm sure your parents know you will not have separate bedrooms when you do so the fact you are sexually active will become evident sooner or later.

I agree that making an emotional committment to each other is the basis for a relationship and heaven knows that having a marriage ceremony does not guarantee that committment. On the other hand, the marriage ceremony does guarantee you certain rights. If you buy any property together and are unmarried it becomes a nightmare dividing that property if you should break up. If you still owe money one party can stop making their part of the payment and there is little you can do to force them. It also brings rights to your children if you have any. If you are married you do not have to worry about proving paternity and/or the right to child support. And, if God forbid, someone dies a married partner has definate rights to moneys and property that a nonmarried partner does not.

It is fine to think that you are young and nothing bad is going to happen to you. Right now you are in love and I hope that love lasts until you are 90. If you look at the statistics on the longevity of couples though, the odds are against you. You say you are being careful but there is only one method of birthcontrol that is 100% effective and you have already said you are not planning on being abstinant. Unexpected things happen. Be sure you have protected yourself against problems if they do.

It sounds like your faith is pretty strong and you use it to guide you in your daily life. However, you did not say if your religious beliefs are from your interpretation of the bible or some other religious text or if they are from the teachings of a formal religion. I will say that most religions are not cafeteria style programs. They do not teach you to follow the guidelines to life you agree with and ignore the ones you do not. For most religions it is all or nothing. If you choose to follow your beliefs on sex and marriage you are probably not accepting the teachings of a religious program. Are you ready to compromise the faith you have held for so long? It may be hard if you find yourself abanding other things you believe because they do not give you permission to do what you want to do at the current time. Today you are changing your thoughts on sex and marriage. Will you change your thoughts on telling lies next time you are caught in a jam where you know the truth will hurt you? In some ways, you are already lying to your parents. What will be the next occasion where a lie is easier?

These issues are just general things people need to address as part of growing away from your parents and making your own life. I am not faullting you in any way for your actions, thought or decisions. I'm just hoping you will give serious thought to whatever you do and be sure you are doing it because it is the right thing for you and you can live with the consequences for the rest of your life. Don't act irrationally or because someone else says you should.
  #16  
Old Dec 18, 2013, 04:47 PM
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RomanSunburn RomanSunburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jadzea View Post
I agree that making an emotional committment to each other is the basis for a relationship and heaven knows that having a marriage ceremony does not guarantee that committment. On the other hand, the marriage ceremony does guarantee you certain rights. If you buy any property together and are unmarried it becomes a nightmare dividing that property if you should break up. If you still owe money one party can stop making their part of the payment and there is little you can do to force them. It also brings rights to your children if you have any. If you are married you do not have to worry about proving paternity and/or the right to child support. And, if God forbid, someone dies a married partner has definate rights to moneys and property that a nonmarried partner does not.
Not just about property. If your significant others gets seriously injured, you don't have guaranteed visitation rights in the hospital unless you are married.
  #17  
Old Dec 21, 2013, 08:18 PM
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gnat gnat is offline
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I don't think it's your parents' or his parents' business whether or not you are having sex if you are no longer a minor. My husband and i had sex in the homes of our parents before we were married and I know they would disapprove. Of course we didn't announce, "We're going to go have sex now" nor would we now even though we are married. Our sex life is our sex life and no one else's.

Both of our parents are extremely opposed to sex before marriage because of religious reasons. Funny thing about it is we've done the math and found out both of our (judgmental) mothers were pregnant before they were married.
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