that million dollar question to women in love

Date rapes didn't happen in the past as they do now. That is the most common. And there are a couple kinds. Those where they deliberately drug her and opportunistic rapes.

Rape in a war setting is all about control of the victim and the rest of the town. It's destruction. Maybe revenge. It isn't a "cultural" thing in the same way as the Steubenville rape. In war wouldn't be accepted under "normal" circumstances but in war it is. They aren't going to go home and brag to their families. In Steubenville they bragged about it for anyone to see. Including other female students and parents, teachers, etc.

To be clear… war rape is just as horrible, it is just not the same as existing in a rape culture.

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THIS!

Pisses.
Me.
Off.

Rape in war is a war crime. It's not considered acceptable and is illegal not to mention this is something that's been happening for hundreds of years. Date rape is new, but then I would argue the more violent type of rapes happened a lot more many years ago because rape wasn't really considered a crime, or a major crime to what it is now, at least in western society.

The "how not to be raped " is not about shaming the victim but just giving advice. No different to advice on how not to have your house robbed, how not to be a victim of a mugging. If no advice was given many women would be demanding of it.

Also lets be real here. The vast majority of men know rape is wrong. No different to stealing, physical assault or murder. They know it's wrong but unfortunately some men don't care due to lack of morality or their own issues against the world are stronger then their conscience.

Thank you for the link Michanne, at least now I understand where the term comes from.

During our therapy, the psychiatrist asked about traumatic experiences in our pasts and my wife wouldn't even address when she was raped. I was the one that had to bring it up. Her personal shame is bad enough that she still makes excuses for the %$#%$& that drugged and raped her saying that she shouldn't have left her drink there, she shouldn't have agreed to get a ride home, etc.

But the truth is he should have never put roofies in her drink, he shouldn't have taken her to his place and then raped her in the basement of the house his kids and wife were sleeping in and he shouldn't have pretended it never happened.

I'm a pretty peaceful guy, but if I ever got my hands on him ...

I doubt any person who has been rape would be grateful you told them well at least it is more of a crime while the perpetrators are being protected by the entire town. Or while they brag about the rape. Or having to continue to serve side by side because your commanding officers don't take it seriously assuming you are brave enough to report it. I believe the number is 70% that don't get reported. Or their name is posted on a website. (Reporters not necessary.) or they are slap on the wrist in court because they have such a "promising future". These things happen all the time.

Spend as much time teaching mean it is WRONG and I'll be happy to entertain "how not to be raped" but I am talking about advice such as how to dress as if that is permission to be raped. In case that wasn't clear... It isn't.

Knowing it is wrong and getting messages that permit it are contradictory but that is exactly what is happening. Men are capable of restraint. Date rape is control or insecurity and control. "Horny" and drunk really isn't a majority of these crimes. Did you read the reddit article? The men involved in these rapes express regret and admit that they did not think of these women as individuals. Men are individuals in their minds. Why aren't women? Theoretically they are dating to have a relationship, eventually. When, exactly, do they see women as people? This absolutely been growing as advertising has changed. I studied messages in advertising over 15 years ago. It was bad enough to talk about it but not nearly what it is today. Go ahead and look this up. I am sorry but if you think advertising and media doesn't have the power to change culture you are high.

"some men don't care due to lack of morality or their own issues against the world are stronger then their conscience."
This makes me think you are aware at some level but not willing to see the connection between media and increased date rape.

BTW, I watched the accused last night because it was on Netflix and we are discussing the topic. Sure, there have been changes but not so much since 1987. They myths and treatment of the victim is still there. It makes me sad people are unwilling to see this. If I am sounding harsh that would be why.

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I respectfully disagree.

When my house got robbed I was not, in any way, made to think it was my fault.
When my sister got mugged, the police didn't suggest that it would have been better if she would have had a gun or a less nicer pocketbook.....

"How not to be raped" insinuates that rape might be a victimless crime.

The "advice" is WAY different.

I don't understand what you mean here

Rapes don't get reported for a number of reasons. One the victim fears they won't be believed and perhaps shunned by their own family, another could be the victim feels ashamed. So many reasons.

Well I'm not on about advice like this obviously.

Date rape once again has numerous motivations. Sure it's a form of control to subdue the victim but the motivation for the rape could be many. Only the rapist themselves know their motives. Where are these messages saying it's okay to rape? Rapists are despised, to the extent that murderers are seen as higher up the prison hierachy.

I read the reddit article yes. I'm not sure about the men not seeing women as individuals, mostly I just saw a load of different excuses from these men rather then accept responsibility. You say the media is to do with increased rape, I would argue that the media is bringing more rape and child abuse to the public's attention. So we hear about it more so we think it's happening more. Before DNA profiling, TV and the internet existed, paedophiles and rapists did exist. They've existed for thousands of years and in the past they wouldn't have even been considered committing a criminal offence.

I agree the victim does get treated unfairly by the law.

Well it depends what the advice is.

Don't accept lifts from strangers. Avoid receiving open drinks from men, especially men you don't know. Make sure your with a bunch of girl friends and not isolated walking down town late at night. Don't go back to a man's house, especially one you don't know well.

Now this is all common sense. I'm not suggesting it's the woman's fault, but if you put yourself in potentially dangerous situations it could end badly.

I agree with Lycanthrope that there are nuances here. Some advice can be victim-shaming (which is reprehensible), but other advice is frankly practical and useful. It is admittedly not always easy to determine what someone's motive is in giving such advice. When I was robbed in a major city, the cop who took my report suggested (in a way that I felt was polite and non-judgmental) that walking in the area I was walking in during the middle of the night was not the safest of things to do, and that openly carrying a laptop bag instead of stowing it inside my backpack could make me a target. I did not feel that he was suggesting that it was my fault that I got robbed. I felt that he was suggesting how I might avoid getting robbed again in the future.

Mind you, I wouldn't give advice on how not to get raped to a woman who had been raped. That's just too charged a situation. But if I had a daughter, I'd give her advice on how to stay safe, much like what Lycanthrope suggests. Yes, we ought to educate men on these things; yes, it would be nice if we didn't need to suggest these things to women. But the world is what it is.

What I meant in the first paragraph was said better by Sophie.


What happens when she does not follow the advice? Should she be blamed? If not do you think she isn't blamed directly or indirectly or feels shame? Why do you think it is not necessary to educate the men at the same time? If she does break this advice is it ok to take advantage of her?

"Rapes don't get reported for a number of reasons. One the victim fears they won't be believed and perhaps shunned by their own family, another could be the victim feels ashamed. So many reasons."

I don't see how you can say this and not see it as a cultural problem.

When I am talking about the media I am talking about all the ads and entertainment that puts women in compromising or weak positions. That stereotypes them. That has them physically exposed while men party (I.e. Alcohol ads). This isn't accidental in any way. No ad person could dispute this. Heck you can even see it happening in madmen 60s style). Who's the best at it? Peggy.

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If she doesn't follow such advice then she's being foolish and playing with fire. If I leave my front door open and it gets ransacked, obviously I didn't deserve it to happen, but I'm being naive to think you can trust everyone to be a law abiding citizen. I never said it's not necessary to educate men but it's an insult to all men to assume we don't know rape is wrong or need to be educated. It's a bit like saying men need educated to know stealing is wrong. The majority of men do not rape anyone and are disgusted by it. Let's not forget that.

And no, of course it's not okay to take advantage of her.

Because this tends to be worldwide, amongst various cultures. So I don't see how it can be a cultural problem. If it's amongst various cultures it's a worldwide phenomena

I'm sorry, but I don't get the whole idea that some model in a bikini in an alcohol ad is the reason why men go out and commit rape. It's like blaming GTA 5 for gang related crime. It's barking up the wrong tree.

The problem with a situation like you're mentioning is that of correlation vs causation. Many times we like to say that since there is a correlation, it proves causation. Like you said, since more violent people tend to enjoy GTA, people will feel that GTA causes people to become violent. But that's not the case. Many people who are very peaceful will enjoy GTA.

So there is a correlation between a societal view that portrays women on beer commercials as always being party girls and rapists views as not seeing them as real people. But those commercials aren't the cause. There are millions of men that can watch that commercial and not see women as objects. It is merely a correlation between the twisted view of a rapist and a societal view of girls who drink being nothing but party girls.

I hope that makes sense, I think I confused myself ...

I'm not sure what the topic is here much less what the million dollar question is but maybe a million dollar question to women in love would get less controversy and more insights if it was posted in the women only forum?
Hope this doesn't stir up more controversy

You, yourself said that the advice was no different.

Personally, I have gotten advice on what to wear and what not to wear and how I should present myself SPECIFICALLY to "avoid" rape and the consequent insinuation that, in the event that I might be, I would somehow be to blame.

Yes, the advice IS different and it shouldn't have to be. It makes me feel guilty before any crime has been committed.....

Possibly....
I'm sure the poster has her reasons for putting it here. And I'm sure the moderators have reason to believe that she posted correctly, or they would have moved it, no?

I'm sure there is some reason... nobody does anything w/o reasons
I was here out of curiosity but I think I will leave this thread quietly now

Wait...I'm coming with....

I'm out of the loop on what GTA means.

I don't really think I can say anymore except with all due respect, I don't think you do not have much knowledge of media and how much influence it yields. There are plenty of resources out there about it if you have an interest in learning.

Luckily there is a whole network of nonprofit men's group who believe differently and are educating other men as well as doing psa's etc. They are in a lot of universities and high schools all over the country. They are called MARS or some similar variation.


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GTA is an awful game better known as Grand Theft Auto where you steal cars and slap prostitutes and such.

Oh, that explains it. No time. Thanks!

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Well gta is only part of the picture just as the bikini image is. It is the entire spectrum of images and messages. It alone doesn't cause anything but it makes shooting people more palatable just like TV shows and movies do. I don't know how we got to recommending everybody have guns in your home. I think I read somebody telling women they should carry guns to protect them from rape the other day. And I'm not sure gun use is higher than the early 1990's when it was really high (but don't quote me, not positive) but the whole culture has this NEED to carry and kind of a paranoia. Now we've got stand your ground in at least one state. Yes it is all part of the big picture of violence including rape.

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I think you're being naive if you think educating men is going to stop rape. It's a bit like educating someone not to steal, or rob banks, or commit violent assault. You know, they're all criminal acts perpetrated by criminals.

If you want to stop rape or make happen less often then you get tougher in those who commit the offence. This is more to do with little punishment or the punishment being soft.

What they should do is incarcerate the serial rapists, offending paedophiles, extremely violent rapists and gang rapists for the rest of their lives. I wouldn't stop there however, what I would suggest is that for those type of offences, the criminal should have their penis and testicles removed by an operation under anesthetic.

For those those with previous good character who commit an act under alcohol/drugs. are perhaps very young. I would suggest a full 10 years in prison but a warning that if they commit such an offence again then they shall receive the same fate.

Not really no. During the wild west Amercians were gunning eachother down in bars all the time. Because there was less chance of being caught, someone with violent tendencies was more likely to act out.

A woman isn't to blame for being raped. However, it is her responsibility to not get herself into potentially dangerous situations. You seem to be against any advice which could be helpful to young women. It's not about blaming women but it is about telling woman about how to prevent a possible crime happening.

And of course a woman should be able to dress how she wants. However I will say, if you are a woman and you don't like being stared at or are not in the mood for male attention, it's probably a good idea to cover up a little bit. That doesn't mean it's okay for a man to rape a woman. But men will stare and look and trying to educate men not to, isn't going to stop it.