that million dollar question to women in love

You're saying that basinger's solution to rape is to consent to rape?

Is it understood a man can be made to ejaculate whether he wants to or not? The same is true for women.

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I admit I did have trouble following. Sorry to have mixed things up.

I didn't mean to suggest that you try watching porn or anything; I just raised it as an equivalent example of something that people get can get accustomed to needing in order to orgasm. I'm not generally interested in porn, either.

I don't mean to treat you like a teenager--I know you're a grown woman, and it sounds as though you've been around the block some--but are you sure that you really have any chemistry with your current lover? I was with my husband for 15 years (we were high school sweethearts). I loved him deeply and was very devoted to him, but the chemistry wasn't there. The sex was mediocre at best, and I never once had an orgasm with him, not even through masturbation. With my current significant either, sparks and orgasms galore. Mind you, the picture is more complicated than I'm presenting (I had a bunch of stuff to work through in therapy), but, you know, chemistry matters to a lot of folks. [Edit: Catching up on the thread, it seems that you know the right feelings and chemistry for you aren't there... The obvious solution, of course, would be to move on, but I know that's easy for me to say...]

Well, if you orgasm within 3 seconds of thinking about him, then switch it off after 1 second. If it's within 1 second, switch it off after a millisecond. I don't know. If you don't want to substitute another fantasy, then try starting with your fantasy and then switching to fantasy-less masturbation. Or you can just go cold-turkey no-fantasy, only trying fantasy-less masturbation. How long have you ever tried doing that, not even cheating and using your go-to fantasy once? (I mean in terms of days, weeks, etc, not minutes.) I'm afraid I don't have any more helpful tips on that front. Just as you have no personal framework for having an orgasm in a non-consensual scenario, I have never had an orgasm without fantasizing.

I don't know. Our bodies don't always respond the same way over time, or as we want them to. And sometimes with body changes or especially with meds, we may have to up the intensity of whatever our stimulus is; masturbate for longer, touch more vigorously, watch more intense porn, have more intense fantasies. (When I got on an SSRI, I had to significantly up the intensity of my fantasies, which were already distressing to me.) Perhaps this is your escalation--from no fantasy to one go-to. I do know, though, that we can get accustomed to one type of stimulus (for example, the classic problem of the guy who uses a "death grip" while masturbating and ends up not being able to orgasm in any other way), and I wonder if you haven't just gotten accustomed to this fantasy.

No, you didn't get me wrong.

You clearly are hard wired to need to be in love with a guy....and you currently are not.

Your choice, right now, is to have an orgasm or not. (Personally, I would vote for the latter) So do whatever it takes without, as you have said, any guilt. Some women can only get off with a vibrator, or a tongue, or a finger. And they ARE in love with their partners.

Point being, we all wish for ideal....but there's not much in life that is perfect. Plus it's all relative anyway....Many "pre-orgasmic" women would consider YOUR sex life to be ideal.

When you fall deeply in love again, I imagine that it will be different for you.

Okay, but relationships and sex is not mathematical or predictable to that extent. You can’t intellectualize it like that and you can’t use a system of mathematical equations to determine what will and will not give someone an orgasm.

When I said if you touch me in the right places, I’ll orgasm regardless of consent, I didn’t mean that those places are set in stone predictable. I mean that if you managed to locate whatever it was that would physically trip me off, I would have an orgasm. The “right places” aren’t like just something I have within me. My body feels a little different every day and I respond a little differently to different things.

Trying to prove that you can’t have an orgasm from rape is just incorrect and offensive to anyone who has been raped. It implies that they wanted it if they experienced any sort of “pleasure” or it says that what they felt didn’t happen when on the inside, feeling something “pleasurable” from rape is very confusing and very horrible.

I don’t really understand the semantics discussion at the end because I find the word “fellate” ridiculous and the word “blowjob” to be nonoffensive. It’s a personal thing. Also, you can’t exactly compare what you went through to vaginal rape. Yes, it was a bad situation and I’m so sorry you felt like you had to do that in order to protect yourself. I wish it didn’t have to get that far. However, vaginal rape is very different because it involves doing physical actions that could potentially be pleasurable for you. Giving someone head is only potentially pleasurable on a psychological level whereas the action involved in vaginal intercourse could be pleasurable both physically and psychologically. There was no possibility that you could have had a physical orgasm from being giving head to a guy when you would have preferred not to.

Orgasms, particularly female orgasms are very personal and very “touchy” for lack of a better word. Some people can only get off to certain ideas, actions, and fantasies. Perhaps you require being in love to orgasm with someone. I can get off to a variety of different things, for example, I can get off by just urinating without doing anything else or even planning on getting off before doing peeing. I only share this to demonstrate how different people are sexually and lumping people in general groups is really not prudent especially when talking about sex. Your assumption that women in “true love” can only orgasm to people they are in love with is assuming that everyone’s mind works the same way yours does. What interests me the most out of all of this is that if you really believe that, then why haven’t you asked the question “am I still in love with my ex?”. It would stand to reason that if you can’t orgasm in this relationship and you think that women who are in true love can only orgasm to thoughts or actions of their beloved that the reason you can’t orgasm is because you are still in true love with the last person who gave you an orgasm.

I'd prefer to raise this. You can't psychologically orgasm with someone that you aren't in love with. A physical orgasm with no psychological aspects results in a "...that was it?" phenomenon and a psychological orgasm with no physical stimulus is confusing as hell.

Basinger's solution is a helpful practical solution to reduce the risk in a dangerous situation. the risk associated with blowjobs are far, far smaller than the risks associated with forced PIV or, worse yet, forced PIA, and, when you are giving a blowjob, you are essentially in control of the situation which is not the case for PIV and PIA. So basinger's solution (and mine, which I conceived of way before her, when I found myself in a crisis situation) is to take the matter into your own mouth (I guess a hand, if acceptable, would be an even safer approach), and reduce the danger. It is a practical approach that works; I fully support what she is doing because practical solutions for crisis situations, and not politically correct statements, are what gets women out of grave danger. It does not mean that women should not be helped in other ways - emergency call booths on university campuses, fast response teams in university police departments, wide distribution of reports of sexual assault etc., are all very needed - these things are not mutually exclusive. What do you think is better - become a victim of a full-blown rape but know that you never gave consent, or get yourself out of a dangerous situation in ten minutes with a blowjob but not be able to say that you never gave consent? For me, it is a no-brainer - consent is a theoretical construct while getting an STI is a not a theoretical construct - it is a practical disaster.

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I do not understand the point about male ejaculations. I have had a lover (that one for whom I am the origin of the most important feeling in his life) not ejaculate, despite great big erections, because he would think of all the grief I had caused him. Granted, I was at that time asexual due to meds, so I was incapable of any sort of feeling. I imagine that had I been even a little bit involved - say, caressing him ever so gently or moaning just a bit - he would have ejaculated, but I was like an inanimate object. He has since moved in with his wife and plans to live with her, so I do not expect to have an opportunity to test whether he would ejaculate having sex with me as a woman and not an inanimate object incapable of feeling. I am not sure this is relevant to your question; please clarify. In general, female sexuality is considered a much more elusive subject than male sexuality, but that might not be true in reality. Note that a male needs to have an erection prior to having an ejaculation, and erections turn out to be fairly elusive as well, so with a male erection being not so reliable, male ejaculations are even less reliable, no?

I had a vaginal acquaintance rape and did not have any good feelings from it. I was infuriated that I had let it happen (because, you know, a neighbor/classmate/friend who had always been so nice and helpful... not your typical monster guy) and later let him know how furious I was via the tone of my voice, although, unfortunately and I regret it, I did not spell it all out in words. So based on my experience, no, I could not see how anything can be pleasurable from a vaginal rape either; it is more unpleasant because of the lack of control (you control blowjobs). Point taken about your personal dislike of the term "fellatio"/"fellate". I very much like it because if does not contain the word "job". If you have feelings for a man, than doing that thing should not be perceived as a "job", right? A "job" is something you are not particularly keen on doing but have to do due to circumstances.

I am confused when you referred to my ex. I have had a few. I tried to use alphanumerics to denote them.

I have no places on the body, even elusive, even migrating or finicky (="yes" today, "no" tomorrow, or "yes" with guyA but "no" with guyB, or "yes" during windy weather and "no" during thunderstroms), that would behave the way you describe yours. I wish I had. I find the idea of orgasming from peeing very lovely, but the closest I came was watching my exH2 pee after sex because it brought us even closer. I did not do it as a rule, but on a couple of occasions when I did, I very much liked it.

"Trying to prove that you can’t have an orgasm from rape is just incorrect and offensive to anyone who has been raped." - I have been raped without having orgasms, and it is not offensive to me, and since I am included in the set of people who have been raped, "anyone" does not hold true anymore. I was not trying to prove it; I was expressing that I could not comprehend how that would happen. There are a great many things that I cannot comprehend. Say, the garden variety porn - tab A goes into slot B and then leaves the slot B and then goes into it again and then leaves it again. Then more of the same but the pace changes. The vocalization accomapanying this fascinating and highly unusual scene are male panting and female squealing many frequencies above what I would normally expect from sexually aroused women. So to me it seems stupid and extremely boring, and I cannot comprehend how it can be arousing (but yes, I can comprehend how it can be entertaining). A great many people enjoy that, and I personally know some of them who are brilliant men (more than
'clearly not stupid', but outright and positively brilliant), and they tried to explain to me that this close-up rawness is what men like, but I still cannot comprehend it. That I cannot comrehend it does not make it offensive, right? I simply do not comprehend it.

In the rape examples, I can see how a woman who has resigned herself to the rape may feel pleasurable sensations, and if that is the case, I cannot see why she should feel in any way bad about it. I was talking more about fighting rape - trying to get out of it. When you fight something, you go into the crisis mode, ie you only do what is absolutely necessary to do, like a triage ER nurse who would not take unnecessary steps while being under unrelenting time pressure. So in that crisis mode, to the best of my understanding, all unnecessary processes stop running, and that includes processes of feeling pleasure. If a woman does not fight but has to go through the rape, feeling pleasure actually seems to be the smartest solution under the situation. I was only talking about fighting, be it physical fighting, screaming, threatening, or performing sexual acts to get out of a worse thing ASAP. All of those were typical crisis responses, and crisis responses are characterized by utmost economy - the minimum that needs to be done gets done.

I feel like if I consented to giving my rapist head, he would have raped me anyway. I think it would have just made me feel even more guilty when he actually forced himself on me because then I could think that I wanted it. If the guy actually stopped pursuing you after you gave him head, I could see it as being very empowering, but in a lot of situations, it could just be the precursor to being rape.

I think you need to be careful when you start quantifying rape as "worse" or not as bad.

My father raped me. Nothing about it was pleasurable. My body still responded to stimuli. It wasn't fulfilling, I didn't enjoy it, it was horrible, I told him to stop, but my body went through the motions. I don't remember if I actually had an orgasm or not and I'm not going to attempt to try to. Just don't try to say it isn't possible because it is and it doesn't mean that the victim found it "pleasurable".

Basinger's idea may work for some rapists. Some men unfortunately are just horny and take it too far. However the power and control type of rapist would hate the idea of a woman offering him a BJ. He wants control and that's taking the control away from him. He'll know exactly what you're doing and it would perhaps even encourage him to rape even more or become more violent ( if that's possible).

He's more likely to do the thing you don't want the most. Many of these assholes are sadists who enjoy humiliating and inflicting as much pain as possible.

Oh, I was far more proactive. Once I realized what I was getting myself in, I quickly determined that giving him head was the safest route. Then he became so serene afterwards that I used the opportunity to get out of his car. In other words, I saw the risk of rape coming early on, and luckily he was not a guy with no refractory period, so his ejaculation put him in a peaceful/relaxed mood rather than had him wishing for more.

Why do you use the word "guilty", though? whatever happens during rape, there is nothing to feel guilty about. In general, unless you habitually slit the throats of innocent infants, you should not be feeling guilty about anything.

I quantify types of rape based on objective characterisks such as the risk of STI's, the risk of physical tears (PIA), and such. Subjective responses may differ, but those objective characteristics will stay the same. When I read about Kim Basinger's approach, she was stressing that the risk of STI's is much smaller from blowjobs (PIA would be the most dangerous rape route), but I also add the physical risks. A gang rape is worse than a rape by an individual, no? there are objective criteria to go by. If we don't quantify by objective criteria, then what - do I get to claim that one acquaintance rape that infuriated me was as bad as a PIA gang rape by strangers? I would never claim that. I know that what I have been through was unpleasant, but it was not horrifying and traumatazing for life, so I speak in terms that reflect that relative ranking order. The whole criminal justice system is built on the idea of an objective ranking order - what if we started saying that burglaries and murders were equally bad???

Well I couldn't be "proactive" about it.

Feeling guilt and shame after rape is common. It's not rational. It's just how it is for lots of people.

If I was the perpetrator there is no way I would let her wrap her teeth around my schlong. Rape isn't about getting off. It's violence and control.

If you are in that situation you should fight. Take self defense. I doubt I am going sit there and think to negotiate consensual. Self defense is taught as a knee jerk reaction. If you are penetrated get a rape kit and a morning after. Aids is still a risk either way. I looked for this advice online and I found nothing. I can't even imagine anybody recommending that. It is consensual rape. How would that play out in court? We should be passed this.

The point of ejaculation is to make babies. I suppose it is a release too.

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Mine was a garden variety case, and, the guy was of a smaller frame, so I knew I could have fought him physically if not for being in a moving car with him, because I was afraid of a car crash. There are a lot of garden variety, opportunistic rape cases, so Basinger's approach still works for a good chunk of the situations. A garden variety, opportunistic rapist, rather than a control freak, is all too happy to get so lucky so quickly. It basically neutralizes and disarms him in the speediest posssible way. Of course, not getting into dangerous situations in the first place is yet smarter, but by the time this incident happened to me, I had had an uneventful 6 year long history of safe hitchhiking, so I had grown a bit too self-assured.

Not all bodies are the same. Not all people need to "resign themselves" or cease fighting back in order to have an orgasm. Go Googling. Look up anecdotes and case studies. It is possible for some people to have an orgasm while fighting back. For most women, it would be unthinkable to orgasm at the sound of their lover's voice. Yet you have.

Can someone explain the term "garden variety rapist" to me?

What is/are the "other" kind(s)?

I agree about feeling guilty. The rape is about power. By consenting you are giving him more power and control. You aren't taking it at all. I don't see it being empowering under any circumstance. Honestly I can't even fathom this being a good idea.

Here's where I see this going. It goes to court and the defense argues you wanted it because you volunteered to give head. How is that empowering?! So now the one thing that would be satisfactory...putting him away... Is gone. There's guilt.

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Here you are actually taking responsibility for the rape. "I was infuriated that I had let it happen". It isn't any woman's fault for getting raped. If you are taking responsibility and don't get that much pleasure in the physical act that might be why you are ok with fallatio as a bargaining chip. Believe me when you are forced you get no pleasure out of it. You can orgasm but it's strictly a physical response. And many women don't know that so their guilt is even heavier. This is also true of men who are raped, btw.

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I think she means the type of rapist who perhaps is drunk and horny, is otherwise a well respected human being with little to no criminal history.

There are different types of rapists and different motivations. I don't believe all rapists are about power and control. I think some men have a little too much alcohol and/or are too horny to take no for an answer. I think with these type of men it's simply just about wanting sex. That doesn't make what happens right.

Ohhhh. Rape as opposed to non-consensual sex.

Got it.

(I know they're both still rapists...)

Of course they're both still rapists. But just like murderers can have a different motivation for their crime. So can rapists.

Reading a little more I do back off a little on the fallatio but only as a way to survive. I think self defense, if you can, is a better idea. I found this article that I thought was pretty interesting. If you are going to talk about the "horny" ones I think it is important to note that they are not seeing an individual. I think that is a consequence of media the way it is and "rape culture". Warning, some of this is disturbing.

"That's arguably the most disturbing takeaway from the thread: these guys are so disconnected from reality that they don't even feel the need to look women in the face to be sure they're interested."

http://jezebel.com/5929544/rapists-e...-should-listen

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I know......That's why I said both still rapists.....

Can someone please explain what "rape culture" is to me? I've heard this term lately and it doesn't make sense to me. It conjures up ideas of some subculture of rapists in America. Like we could find aspects of Chinese culture, Indian culture and Native American culture.

I'm pretty naive about this whole thing, but are there really groups of guys sitting around in a basement saying, "Well, it's 5 pm. Rapin' time."

I don't agree with the rape culture thing either. Rape and violence particularly against women has always happened and was perhaps worse in the past.

It's not as blatant. Gangs aren't in a basement planning this.

It's a culture that encourages women objectification, victim blaming, excuses violence against women via cultural norms and media.

Couple of recent examples in the last year or so...

Steubenville: the teen was molested and the boys felt safe enough to brag about it with videos on twitter. In fact they were. The town backed them and the sheriff did not investigate until somebody wrote extensively and got national attention. These were players on the local football team. This is not the first or last time.

Shaming: there is a lot of advice on "how not to be raped" the result is to make women feel shame for being raped. The op expressed anger but what I posted earlier about taking responsibility for the rape is an example. Another example is the Jody foster movie years ago about the New Bedford rape (forget name). That kind of thing still happens today. Another is every time a rape is not reported. The fact is we should be teaching guys it is wrong plain and simple. There are internet ads now but it will take more than that.

Dartmouth is under federal investigation for not properly investigating reported rapes. They aren't the only school either. If the school isn't going to investigate are you going to report it? I wouldn't trust them!

Penn state. The town supported the COACH until he was found guilty.

Advertising shows women in compromising and slutty roles all the time. The objectify women and push stereotypes. Look at beer commercials. In that article that was a major factor in a lot of these date rapes... Not seeing her as an individual. And this was written by the rapists!

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

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