My self-esteem just took a hit here

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As LMo reminded me in her post, I can do a better job, however, of expressing my perceptions regarding this in a PM versus posting it on the board. Particularly if my perception is a minority opinion.

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That is neither what I said nor what I meant.

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You are correct, the sentence about minority opinions came entirely from me.

gg

Being bi-polar has nothing to do with self-esteem, although both Angel and I are bi-polar, my self-esteem issues are not as profound as hers because I had to toughen up fast, Angel is still learning trust issues as well, we need to all focus on what is working on this forum not who has a better way to do it, Septembermorn has been doing a marvelous job teaching us what we need to know, please if it ain't broken don't try to fix it
Angie

When I mentioned bipolar, I referring to AG's sensitivity and how it can affect her moods. I was speculating that it might make her mood swings more intense. I wasn't really thinking about self esteem at the time.

Oh, and I meant to tell you earlier that I appreciated your reminders about the purpose of this forum. I'll try to keep that in mind.

Sorry if my post was upsetting to you.

gg

No problem, you haven't upset me, still abit sensitive about my earlier post and how much I opened up on, you have always been very compassionate with me, love ya
Angie

(((Angie)))

long happy sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

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Don't know if this is my self-esteem getting hit , but I now feel like I've revealed way too much and I'm receiving no reply so I guess I am not one of those ppl you feel is your friend, that's okay I have others who reply and who like me for who I am "this is getting way to triggery". AG, I too feel pain

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As I've already said in my 'late' response, I wasn't here to respond earlier. I do consider you a very dear friend but I have to ask, isn't your post jumping to conclusions about me? Isn't that what I'm so often being accused of, jumping to conclusions to either a lack of reply or the contents of reply/post? I don't understand the difference between this reply and what I do. You mentioned that it feels like 'triggery' and pain. Is that not what I have been saying all along, that I get triggered and hurt so easily? Please explain the difference in your response to what I do? I'm really at a loss to understand that there is any.

BTW, I'm sorry that the lateness of my reply lead you to feel this way. It's certainly not what I would want. As I said earlier, I wasn't here before to read your response in order to give you a timely reply. For that I apologize. ((((((((( Angie ))))))))

Pat, first off, I wish something would start blooming around here. We keep getting snow every few days. I would love to see some signs of Spring on the horizon. My pdoc also labeled me with SAD a few years back as she noticed that from November through April I'm much worse.

Anyway, back on topic. I think it is wonderful that you and your pdoc have been able to find the right med combo that is really working for you and also that you will be starting therapy soon. I am most envious. I have actually written a whole saga of my meds in the Drug Question Forum. My thread is called 'mood stabilizers' or something to that effect. My meds don't work for me. I've tried and tried til I'm blue in the face to get somebody, ANYBODY to listen to me here, all to no avail. You might want to read that thread for further details of my med history and my frustration with it. I have no problem telling you what I'm on and they are also listed in the aforementioned thread. I'm currently taking, Effexor XR, Wellbutrin, Tegretol, Xanax, Clonazepam. Risperdal had been recently added to the mixture but that was unsuccessful so I took myself off of it. You may want to check out another thread about that whole saga in the General Forum 'back from the depths of hell' or something like that. I'm sure it is no surprise to anybody here that my meds don't work. I'm extremely frustrated with it. I've previously tried Depakote, Lithium, Lamictal, Topomax and Celexa. I do think I might have forgotten to mention Celexa in my thread in the Drug forum. It really does explain in much more detail on what I've been trying to do to resolve my meds issue, all to no avail. I have come to bucking heads with my pdoc about my meds. I live in Canada, changing pdocs is NOT so easy here. Soooooo much red tape, it's a huge story in itself. Believe me, in my frustration I've even tried to do that, also to no avail. I'm stuck with the pdoc that I have. I can't do anything to tick her off or I'll have no one and I think you'll agree that would not be a a very good option for me.

I wasn't aware that you were BP, I don't recall you posting in that forum. It must be wonderful to be at ease and peace. That is what I am striving for. BTW, my home is dirty too, piles of clutter totally overwhelm me to the point that they remain untouched because I feel paralyzed to do anything about them. Logically, I know this only compounds the problem as I keep adding another piece of paper to the pile. I was actually hoping to make a *real* effort at finding some order to this place this last week but going through Risperdal withdrawal unexpectantly put a total damper on any plans that I may have had. Just managing the withdrawal symptoms took up my time 24/7. I also was not here on the forum, hence my thread 'I'm back from the depths of hell' in the General forum. It's about my withdrawal.

At any rate, I'm glad to hear that you will be starting therapy soon and I hope you find it very beneficial. I know mine is really helping me, even if it is not noticable to others here. We have worked out a number of problems that I have dealt with IRL and here on the forum. As I've already said, I'm very new to therapy and I've got a long road ahead of me and a lot to work on. It really seams insurmountable but with my T, I'm hoping to cross each bridge as we come to it and to help deal with all my past traumas that certainly affect the way I respond to things today. It's very hard to undo what I've been doing since a child and I'm sure I'll continue to make mistakes along the way as old habits continue to creep in. But in time, hopefully newly learned behaviours will start to outnumber the old ones. Good luck with your therapy!

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Now I'm frustrated! Haven't you read the STA post? It gives sound advice on NOT reacting. That's where a lot of our problems lie, is in not thinking before we REact! We need to STOP! and THINK and NOT REACT. After we've given some thought to something that upset us, more than likely we'll realize that we misunderstood what was said and feelings won't get hurt. The "ACT" part is to NOT act unless you need to say something back or do something. The difference lies in the fact that you have thought things out and your response will be appropriate.

It's great to be sensitive to others feelings, moods, pain, etc, but NOT to the point that we let it bring our own mood down. We can be sensitive without taking on other's feelings or letting them trigger feelings in us.

Something else we need to know is the difference between "sympathy" and "empathy."

When we SYMPATHIZE with someone, we feel what they feel. If they are in an angry mood, we get angry; if they are depressed, we get depressed.

When we EMPATHIZE with someone, we can relate to their feelings, their anger, their depression BUT WE DON'T JUMP INTO THE HOLE WITH THEM!

As for LMo and I being frustrated, (and maybe others, too) yes we are! We have a right to our own feelings and to express them, especially when we try so hard to help and we just go ignored. We haven't expressed our feelings in a hurtful way. That's because we STOPPED, THOUGHT and then ACTED. I just can't stress that enough.

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I know you've directed this response to gg but I would just like to state that I have never ignored anything that has been said to me. I have read each response, advice ever given and I'm sure I have always responded to them, maybe missing the odd one. Not feeling capable of acting on the advice is not the same as ignoring it.

As far as sympathy and empathy are concerned, I have done both. That is something that I need to work on and my T has been discussing this with me. I all too often put the other person before me and very much start to feel what they feel to my own detriment. This is something I need to find a way to curtail. It doesn't do me or anyone else any good. I know your comments in regards to those words were not about me but more so about you or others who don't want to be sucked down to where I am. That is certainly the last thing that I would want, so if any of you should start to find yourself being sucked into my depression then please stop and retreat. It's not a healthy thing for you to do and as I said, certainly the last thing that I would want to see happen. You have to always think about your own well-being first. I'm still trying to set boundaries for myself and not allow myself to cross them. So far I've yet to be successful.

One other comment and I'm extremely reluctant to mention this one. You stated that you are entitled to your feelings and yes you are but with that so am I. I stated that comment that I refered to was about me and I was hurt. You've all stated that you disgree with it being about me and that's fine. It's your opinion and y'all are entitled to that. I don't recall anybody validating the fact that even if the comments were not about me, my feelings were hurt. As I said, right or wrong in my analysis, I am just as entitled to my feelings as everybody else is to theirs. I think what I would've prefered to see as responses is validation of my feelings with your opinion that you disagree that it was about me, instead of bypassing that my feelings were ever hurt to begin with. BTW, when I say 'your', I'm making a general comment and not just directed at you personally. If I have made a mistake and my feelings were validated, then I apologize. Without going back to the beginning of this thread, I don't recall seeing any validation at all and is that not what we all would want? I said I was reluctantly bringing this point up because I'm hoping that this does not incite more 'hard feelings/etc.'. I'm trying very hard to 'act' and not 'react' to all of your comments. Therefore, I'm trying my best to state how I feel about things that have been said, but in a civil and productive way. I hope that's the way that my responses are coming across. There is absolutely NO anger in any of my responses.

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Actually, I'm not putting her down by being sensitive in general. My frustration is that her unchecked sensitivity is resulted in her asking for help and then slamming the door in our faces after we tried REALLY HARD to support her in whatever amateur ways we know how.

Being highly sensitive, in general, is a gift, like you said. Slamming doors in people's faces who want to help you, however, serves to alienate. I think that most of us here have more compassion and empathy than the average person in 3D (myself included, regardless of your what you appear to have concluded about me) and give many second, third, fouth, fifth chances. However, there is a limit to how often ANYBODY wants their words twisted around.

I'd also like to add that extrapolating a negative sentiment where there isn't one intended is really NOT helping AG who already tends to expect criticism. This might have been better addressed via PM.

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Ok, I'm not really sure how to respond to this because I find myself 'reacting' instead of 'acting'. I read 'anger' or 'tension' in your words. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say that I've twisted your words around so I'm going to ask for some clarification to that. Maybe if you can be a little more specific and hopefully what I deem a little calmer, I may properly 'act' on your comments as opposed to 'react' to which I'm having a hard time doing right now.

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AngelGirl -- *I* replied to this post without you contacting me to ask me to look at it. Now, this is a pretty big forum and hopefully you don't expect every single post to be read, but if I see something from someone and they seem to be upset, I do try to act on it, especially if nobody else has offered support yet. I got your PM, too. Hang in there. You're a very caring and supportive friend to many here, so it's only natural that we want to be be there for you as well.

Love,
LMo

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You're right, you did respond to this without me asking you or anybody else for that matter. But this is NOT the forum I was referring to when I stated that for the most part nobody no longer talks to me. Also, maybe I'm expecting too much but what is the point in writing a thread if nobody reads it? Thank you for the compliments and for still wanting to be there for me. I know it's not easy for you and for that I apologize.

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AngelGirl, we all of us here, will support you forever, I will help you toughen up your skin and heart in anyway I can. Yes this was rough on me, but the only reason I was able to cope is because I have the PC forum, and all of you folks
Just try to remember we are all human here and if we seem short tempered it's cuz we're human.
Angie

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Forever is a long time. I hope I 'get it' before forever runs out. I know y'all are human with all the same emotions that I have but I won't lie and say that being short-tempered won't trigger me. I'm sorry. I guess we're all caught between a rock and a hard place until things change in my head.

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good grief, Charley Brown.....can't we all just get along??

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That's my goal.

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I am just as entitled to my feelings as everybody else is to theirs. I think what I would've prefered to see as responses is validation of my feelings with your opinion that you disagree that it was about me, instead of bypassing that my feelings were ever hurt to begin with. ...
If I have made a mistake and my feelings were validated, then I apologize. Without going back to the beginning of this thread, I don't recall seeing any validation at all and is that not what we all would want?

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Just for the record...when we talked earlier, I believe I said while I disagreed that it was directed at you, I could see how you would be upset by it. (((((AG))))) Very nice replies, btw, eloquently stated.

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And if you get hurt by something, you get hurt. Now that doesn't mean that in reviewing the situation, you aren't able to reconstruct the meaning in a way that you can soothe the hurt, or perhaps find that you mis-interpreted the stimulus. But you still hurt initially. I don't believe you can erase or change that. You are correct that you do not have to act on the hurt. But I do not believe that you can avoid the initial hurt unless you avoid the stimulus itself.

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To my knowledge, it was never stated that the initial hurt can be bypassed with CBT. The purpose of CBT is to teach us to think in different ways.

The quote above is basically what happens when we apply CBT to our responses to unpleasant things.

You're right, that's what happens in CBT. But the thing about CBT that leaves me flat is my personal experience both as a client and a therapist/trainee is the impression that the initial feeling is not validated. That's why I prefer an approach both in therapy and in giving general support that starts with an initial validation of feelings. It's only after I've validated someone's feeling that I would work towards constructing new meaning if appropriate.

I guess I like to start with the idea that a person is acceptable *as they are* AND they can be better. But that's the humanist in me. And it's probably also influenced by my own baggage. It's hard to leave it outside the door all the time, you know or to run away from it.

It likes to jump on your back when you aren't paying attention. Down boy! Down!



gg

GG - isn't that one of the big diffs between CBT and DBT, the initial validation of feelings?

em

Yep, that and the overall dialectical approach. But one of the big dialects is the one between unwavering acceptance and a focus on change.
But I suppose if we are going to talk about different psych orientions or theories, perhaps they should go on another forum, as pat suggested. I just don't know which one.

Maybe Septmorn's CBT thread?

gg

did i suggest another forum? i'm so feeble minded today that i might have invited you all over to my place for a big easter egg hunt.....eggs hidden by the four cats and eaten by the two dogs! anyway, i really enjoy reading about the different therapies..my experiences were long ago and i'm learning new things every time i come to the forums.......xoxox happy, happy easter....pat p.s. i just can't grumble while listening to Jackie Wilson singing "Lonely Teardrops".......

Well, maybe *I* was the one who reacted. I am a little angry about it. There is, in my opinion, NOTHING more maddening than someone putting words into my mouth.

Heh -- all this time I've been pontificating about how 'untriggerable' I am, and I just realized that 'putting words into my mouth' is a sort of trigger for me. My dad, who is one hell of a martyr, does that to me all the time and it is a big red unprotected button that I give him access to push, for some reason.

Anyway, back to you. And really to GG, since I wasn't really annoyed at you in the first place, but she kind of exasperated it (although I think she and I are cool now -- right? I hope? GG?).

I'm not sure what kind of tension or anger in my post you feel is directed at YOU, because there was none. Yes, there was some anger in it (and why wouldn't there be?) but it was in reaction to someone else, not to you.

Sorry if I hurt any feelings here.

Okay I'm going to weigh in here, because AngelGirl, I'm a LOT like you. And I'm hoping I can offer you some helpful information from my own experience.

I kept thinking as I read this thread that a WHOLE lot of energy is being expended to help you, but it's not sinking in for YOU. And that is hard for everyone, probably most of all YOU. I know how that goes, as I have recently been confronted by my therapist about the fact that she gives and gives, and loves and loves, and I take none of it in. She told me that I ask her to rescue me and then I won't let her rescue me. And she told me no matter how much she wants to, she can't love someone into recovery.

It hurts a LOT to be faced with that reality. I'm going to tell you straight up that my response to that new info was more of the same: "Ouch! That hurts! She thinks I'm not trying!" So I defended myself and told her how hard I was trying. "She thinks I don't appreciate her help! She is going to leave me! I am a terrible person! I want to cut myself as punishment." I apologized to her, and she said basically that she wasn't asking me to be sorry, but instead to PUT TO USE the caring that she's giving me.

Now AG, chances are that as you have read what I've written, you are already feeling at least a little insecure about yourself, and maybe somewhat defensive. You might be preparing to apologize for "screwing up" before I even say that you have, because you expect that I'm going to illustrate to you that you have. If you are already experiencing a negative emotional reaction, please do your best to calm down, NOT attack yourself, and remember that I have felt the same way and would never criticize you for your sensitivity. Okay hon?

This is the realization that I came to. My pattern is to get triggered and then go into crisis. Okay let me pause to address the conflict between gg and Tomi on this point. Both agree (I think) that you feel the way you feel. So, AG when you and I feel triggered and hurt and self-critical and hopeless, and overwhelmed (you can finish the list no doubt, there is much more to it), we feel the way we feel. Period. As my T says, feelings are not good or bad, they just ARE. And then you deal with them.

THERE is the hard part. And then you deal with them. HOW do you deal with the feelings? It's so hard! I am famous for telling t "It hurts, hurts, hurts." Oh gosh does it hurt. I hear you, girl. This is where the incredibly hard task of putting to use what positive others have given you.

Your friends at this site have offered you some advice, all very well-meaning. Maybe not all of it is useful in your situation. I understand that. But at least some of their advice will help you if you think very seriously about it AND if you APPLY IT. (Checkpoint here with you, AG. I am not attacking or accusing you for not having applied it. I'm not suggesting that you are bad or have failed or need to apologize. I'm just noticing that this seems to be where you run into troubles, and because I'm working on the same thing, I understand very much. Believe me). Now, if you're like me in this way, too, then you at this point you may be thinking "I TRIED to apply it. I don't know what I did wrong. HOW do I apply it?" Well I'll tell you what I can see here:

-Pat told you that she learned that she has a tendency to think she is the center of everyone's universe. By that, Pat was not trying to say that she is egotistical or self-important. She was illustrating that in her experience, she often thinks that people are more actively thinking about her (good or bad thoughts) than they probably are. The thing is, ALL of us spend a large majority of our time thinking about one thing and one thing only- that would be ourselves. (ae: How do I feel? What do I think? What do others think of me? What do I think of others?, etc). I think Pat's attempt here (and several others was to get to you:[*]Think about the tendency that we ALL have to ask "does this person's comment apply to me? and if so, how?" [*]Realize that there is a good chance that viewing someone's post in this light may influence the way you perceive it[*]Evaluate whether or not it is POSSIBLE that this person was NOT referring to you personally and specifically in their comments.

Now, AG, in my personal opinion you may have already done that. I'm not sure, but you have repeatedly told us here that you have reasons to believe it's about you. Since you haven't offered us anything to work with there, we can't directly help you to evaluate that information. This leaves our hands a little tied. I see two possibilities at this point: (1) The person's post is NOT about you, but your own self-perceptions (ae: thinking about yourself whatever negative thing you believe THEY are thinking about you, or thinking that others are trying to attack you passively) OR (2) This person's post is indeed about you.

If (1) is true:
------------------------------------------------------------------Then your focus in dealing with your feelings would begin with analyzing your reaction to this.

What has it triggered? (ae: maybe the feelings of an abused / abandoned / neglected / hurting child?? or maybe feelings from many years past of being criticized / rejected / attacked / misunderstood?)

Only you can identify the true source of the feelings. Sometimes that information is readily available to you because the current situation makes you think about past situations.

Other times, you may have to dig a little deeper. I find it helpful to ask within myself, "What other experiences in my life does this feel similar to? Does this person, in this moment, remind me of someone who has hurt me? If so, who? And how did they hurt me? What am I afraid of right now?" This can take a lot of work. (Stay with me here, I know this is long, but there is more and it's important)

Once you have identified some possible sources of your intense feelings, you STILL ACCEPT that your feelings are your feelings and not "good" or "bad". BUT now that you understand that your feelings are based on more than the present situation. At this point, you work with those feelings. You counter them by stepping one emotional foot OUT of the past and into the present. You step back and then you anchor yourself to the present situation/reality WHILE exploring the feelings of the past. This is NOT easy, but it IS VERY VERY VERY worth learning to do.

My therapist put it very bluntly "Show me the data, Angela". When I do this, I stop and say "Okay, yes I am feeling like I was attacked (or whatever), and I do have a reason for feeling this way. However, in this current situation I am not being attacked." And then you just sort of reason along those lines, using information from your specific situation.

It might sound harsh, but you just have to tell yourself "This not reality-based. What I am feeling is PAST feelings. I am not perceiving the current situation as it really is." And then you may need to talk to someone about the past feelings. Someone who understands and cares and listens.
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If (2) is accurate, and the person WAS referring to you and WAS being negative about you:
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Well, ouch! Of course you are hurt! It hurts when people say mean things about us. So in this case, dealing with your feelings means that you have to deal with the reality that someone said something bad about you. HOW do you deal with it?

-Well if you're like most of us, you probably think WHY did this person say this? You've got to come up with an explanation to make sense of what is happening to you. We humans are big on this. So you'll think things like: Is it true? What does this mean to me? How do I feel about it? What can I do about it? Well let's walk through those things, shall we?

Is it true?
<font color="red">If it is true: </font> Well it probably hurts mainly because it's something you are already critical with yourself about, right? Maybe this person "pushed your button" by saying something that is true that you don't want to face. If so, what? If there is something about yourself that you don't like, and this person has pointed it out to you, you can either continue to hurt over it, deny it, shove it down, apologize over it but do nothing, or figure out how to fix it.
<font color="red"> If it isn't true: </font> Why does it affect you, what does it mean to you, and what can you do?
-It could be that this negative message, while UNTRUE, is something someone else has said to you before and is really striking a nerve. Or maybe it's something you fear is true about yourself, but really isn't.
-You are likely to feel like you need to defend yourself to the person who made the comment. Well, if they are simply misunderstanding you and are likely to understand if you explain the truth about you, then maybe it's worth talking it out with them. IF they are not like to be convinced, then it probably isn't worth defending yourself to them.
-Turn to *positive* others in your life for feedback. They can tell you "hey, that person is out of line. You're not really like that". When they DO tell you this, try to focus on the fact that the people who are important to you do know the truth about you.
-Realize that even though this person has said something bad about you, it may not be reality-based. Everyone's perceptions are colored by our own experiences. It may be this person's own hang-up. If that's the case, you're not likely to change their opinion and they are not likely to recognize that they have unfairly judged you based on their OWN issue. IF you think this is a generally reasonable person open to feedback, you might approach them about this. But most people are not open enough to handle that. It's probably best (for your own sake) to just write off the rude comment, and if necessary, the person altogether who made the comment. AND- refer back to other *positive* people in your life for reassurance.
-When others DO give you reassurance, internalize it! Believe them! Remember that those kind of people are the kind that are important to you anyway. It really is not worth the effort it takes to hurt and hurt over one person's rude remark. Keep working on discounting what that person said AND reinforcing the TRUTH as others have told it to you, and as you know it within yourself.
-If by chance your *positive* others agree with the statement, you may need to re-evaluate yourself and see if maybe there is some useful constructive feedback for you. That doesnt' justify the original person putting it in a mean or judgmental way. You can still write them off, but you can consider their insults as feedback and figure out how to change what needs to be changed (if anything). This does not mean you owe it to the original person who hurt you. It just means that in spite of the fact that they are being hurtful to you (which is NOT okay), you CAN learn somethings from what they said. The basic idea is to take what is helpful throw out the rest.
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Over time, it is necessary to put the reassurance and caring of those who are supporting you to good use.

Use their positive input as a model or guideline to teach you how to soothe yourself. You can accept their advice and their comforting AND THEN, take it in and learn to repeat their advice and comforting inside your own mind and heart over and over and over again until you are stable on your own.

Nobody will every be perfect at this, but you CAN improve. And you CAN lean on those who care from time to time to remind you how to self-soothe, reason things out, and cope.

I can't emphasize enough how important it is to keep repeating the positive and reality-based messages to yourself again and again and again. That is the key in bringing them in and USING them.

I hope I've said at least one or two helpful things here in this forever-long post. It's probably the only useful post I have made in the past two weeks because I have not had the energy, motivation, or focus to respond to any others. I have put a lot of work into this, so I hope you will put a lot of thought into processing what I have shared.

Best of luck to you,
Angela

And with that, folks, I believe we can all agree that SweetCrusader wins the PC prize for by far the most thoughtful, caring, practical, empathetic, and reassuring post ever written in my tenure here!

... heck... I've only come forth with a handful of posts so far but was just now compelled to come forth and remark on that same thing!

sweet, sweet crusader!!! you just wrote the most thoughtful post that I've read on here EVER......it took you forever and you just kept typing because you cared enough to compare your experiences with AG's so you could help her........you have my total adoration and i'll be your slave all this next week!!
i don't know how to do those cute little people that jump up and down....so picture this..i'm standing in front of my computer, in a chorus line of cats, and we are jumping up and down for YOU!! xoxoxo pat

And ya know, I consider myself to be a fairly gentle and compassionate person. But, now I feel VERY rough around the edges (but that's okay!)! I am so proud of you Angela! You are going to make a fantastic therapist!