[Etienne]

The more I read about self-esteem, the more I realise how much of an hindrance it is. Tell me what you think.

I've recently read an article about self-esteem. I thought it brought some valid points and some solid argumentation demonstrating that no entering the process of self-evaluation is pretty much the best alternative to an high or low self-esteem.

You can find the article here:

http://www.geocities.com/forbidden_area/esteem.html

Take the time to read it, it's really worth your time.

I would be very interested to hear your insight about this.

Here's the key principles. I would be interest what you think about the author's interpretation of self-esteem and the hindrance it causes.

Remember, Key Point #1: Self-esteem must, in some way, be earned.

Remember, Key Point #2: Self-esteem must be earned repeatedly. It is never permanent.

Remember, Key Point #3: Self-esteem leads intermittently to self-damnation.

Remember, Key Point #4: Self-esteem usually promotes social and behavioral inhibition.

Remember, Key Point #5: A compulsive drive for self-esteem leads to frequent anxiety.

As an immediate corollary, we deduce Key Point #6: Self-esteem- related anxiety is an obstacle to achieving those goals essential to our self-esteem!

So, remember, Key Point #7: To overcome self-esteem-related anxiety and inhibition, recognize that your choice is not between self-esteem and self-condemnation. Your choice, rather, is between establishing an overall self-image and establishing no self-image. View your external actions and traits as desirable or undesirable, but abstain from esteeming or damning yourself as a whole.

the link doesn't work.

[Etienne]

Hmm.. it does work for me.

Here's the first part of it:
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Overcoming Self-Esteem
and Psychotherapy

From the book Science Shams & Bible Bloopers



Copyright, 2000, by David Mills
millsdavid@hotmail.com

Thirty years ago, when a person complained of depression or unhappiness, helpful friends or therapists might have offered the following counsel:

"Don't dwell on your own misfortune. Try instead to become creatively absorbed into outside interests and external activities. Stop obsessively contemplating your own navel. Develop rewarding interpersonal relationships. Get your mind off yourself. If you merely focus attention elsewhere, then your self-centered emotional problems will die of neglect."

Today, however, the same individual, suffering the same depression or unhappiness, would likely hear radically different -- and quite contradictory -- suggestion and guidance, such as this:

"Stop worrying about other people. Try instead to build up your own sense of self-worth. Take pride in yourself! Work toward elevating your own self-respect and enhancing your self-image. Your feelings of unhappiness and depression will surely evaporate if you only esteem yourself more highly!"

Clearly, something monumental has changed in popular advice given the forlorn. Instead of espousing, as we did previously, that mental health is realized through lucid interpretation and interaction with the external world, we now seem preoccupied with the wholly internal effort to elevate our own self-appraisal. Forget our former effort to objectively perceive the empirical universe; today we simply want to feel good about ourselves. It has become irrelevant whether an individual's critical reasoning accurately maps external reality. All that matters is his internal self-image.

Because of this shift in popular emphasis -- from external preoccupation to internal self-contemplation -- we find our libraries and bookstores stacked with radically different self-help texts from those published a few decades ago. Each new volume peddles a "breakthrough technique" or "revolutionary method" for conquering man's ever-present doubts about his "true" value. Best-selling books, such as I'm OK, You're OK, and its many clones, have sought to instill within the doubtful individual a belief that, although he may not be perfect, he is at least okay -- and can thus bestow upon himself a modest allotment of self-respect and happiness.

Yet, despite the wide distribution of such popular texts, and despite our tireless efforts to build within ourselves and our children a sense of self-worth, it seems, today, that the average person is as confused as ever (perhaps more so!) about his so-called "self-value." Our lofty sermons deifying self-esteem have produced few if any tangible results. In practical terms, the average person doesn't know what to believe about himself nor how he is supposed to establish such a "positive self-image." The entire concept of "personal worth" has become hopelessly ill-defined and philosophically empty.

In this chapter, I shall specifically detail why our over-hyped promotion of "self-esteem" has done demonstrably more harm than good, and why the prudent individual will resist the arrogant and childish temptation to "esteem" himself. Put another way, we shall learn why an individual would enjoy increased emotional stability and deeper contentment, and why he would suffer far less anxiety and inhibition by completely abandoning his drive for self-esteem.

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If you can't manage to make the link work, I can send you the article via e-mail.

[Etienne]

The following articles can also shed some light of the huge myth of what self-esteem is or supposed to be.

So many people out there seem to be on a quest for the holy grail of self-esteem, but when you do ask them what they are looking for, they don't even know? How do you find something of which you don't what it looks like? I can't do such a feat, and I doubt many people can.

Here's the articles I mentionned:

http://www.campbell.edu/faculty/asbury/sample_paper.pdf

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...0683414B7F0000

Tell me what you think.

Feeling "good" about myself comes from several different sources..some of it has to do with what's going on inside me and some from what I'm doing outside of myself. So, I think I have it balanced pretty well....and some days I feel better than others....how do you feel about yourself and where do you get your feelings about yourself? Do you stay busy helping others? Community activities? Fill me in..pat

[Etienne]

Hi Pat,

That's the thing. I don't link self-esteem to things that make me feel good about.

Have you read the articles? What do you think?

Self-esteem has become a shrine of some sort, one which needs to be demystified and most importantly properly defined, i.e. turned into an operationnal concept.

Why then, is self-evaluation accepted without questionning? Some of the facts contained in the articles are pretty shocking. Self-esteem is the MOST researched psychological phenomenon and also a money-making gold mine.

How many books have you seen that promise you self-esteem and define it as the root of all evil in society?

My position is that self-evaluation inevetably leads to low self-esteem at some point or another and not necessarily to high self-esteem.

I hope you understand what I mean.

Étienne

[SeptemberMorn]

WOW! I just scanned the article but it's obvious to me this person hasn't suffered with mental illness. Maybe he's got it and doesn't know it??

The first paragraph adds up to four words! "Snap out of it!" All of us here know we can't do that! On face value, the fourth paragraph doesn't take into account that Depression, many times, is a chemical imbalance in the brain.

I'll take the time to read on at a later date, but at this moment, I don't have the time.

I don't understand what your purpose is for posting this. You are obviously of a different thought. The subject of "self-esteem" and the need for it has been proven to be correct. An example as simple as when flying, if there is an emergency, place the oxygen mask over your own face FIRST, so that you can help others says it all for most of us. Those of us here in this forum believe that we need to love ourselves first before we can truly love others. Self-love is one of the most difficult achievements for most human beings.

If you don't agree with what is going on in this forum, well and good. For those of us who give of ourselves to help others don't appreciate such a radical idea such as that self-esteem gets in the way of living a good life.

Thank you very much for posting your perspective but please don't try to disrupt the good work that some of us are working so hard for.

Sept - I think this is an interesting discussion on the topic. Isn't this forum for discussion of the issues surrounding self-esteem?

We don't dismiss people here because they have differing opinions, right? ("my way or the highway!") We exchange ideas....right?

emmy

for Septmorn........live and let live. i am finding this interesting.....

E: 1. please answer the questions that i asked you about yourself.
2. yes, i read all of the article that you posted. 3. i think the idea that you're pushing is interesting and i'll discuss it with you when you answer the questions that i asked. 4. Happy Easter

i hope i didn't sound abrupt in my last post.....i was getting off to make a phone call.....i really agree with ems that we can have discussions about self-esteem..it's not our way or the highway....xoxo

[DocJohn]

I agree. This isn't meant as a forum just for folks to discuss self-esteem who have a mental illness, but for anyone struggling with self-esteem in general. Articles like this are thought-provoking and provide the impetus for potentially interesting discussion.

Happy Easter!
DocJohn

hip,hip, hooray!! thanks.

[SeptemberMorn]

Em, I was just thinking that there'w a few Very Fragile people here that we are trying desperately to support and encourage. Like I said, I'm fiercely protective.

As Etienne stated his/her opinion, I stated mine. I've punched a couple of holes in Etienne's theory. So shoot me!

[SeptemberMorn]

Em... This is what I mean. I know there are several ways of acquiring self-esteem. I think MJ was the one that changed the wording on the "I AM.." exercise. I have no problem with that. It's when someone tries to confuse the issue.

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The problem I'm having is Now I'm doubting that self-esteem is needed or do we build up our ego's The self-esteem Fraud thread has me totally confused and angery

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I'm not trying to make it "my way or the highway."

[SeptemberMorn]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Remember, Key Point #1: Self-esteem must, in some way, be earned.

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I disagree completely. As children, we require nurturing in every aspect. Not just food and clothing. Our Self needs to be nurtured, too.

Parents that don't know this failing, then it is up to us to take stock of ourselves; our strengths and our weaknesses. Recognize and accept our strengths and also recognize and accept our weaknesses. When our weaknesses are recognized, then we can set about fixing them in whatever means possible as long as it's healthy.

If 20 or so years I go I had said "I am me" I wouldn't have been happy with "me." There was a whole lot that needed to be fixed, there were many things I didn't know were possible. To have accepted the "me" that was then would have meant that many more years of frustration and failure. I had to change my "black and white thinking" to the point I realized there are many shades of grey.

If I had accepted my anxiety attacks and my depression, who knows! I may have already killed myself! I had to learn to THINK differently along with the help of medications.

When I suffer with low self-esteem, I also need to gather input from others to see what I may have lost sight of.

[mj14]

I haven't had a chance to fully read all of the articles, but I do think a discussion of self-esteem could be valuable.

I have a lot of problems with the premises of the David Mills chapter. He makes an awful lot of sweeping statements about what *is* without backing it up in any way. The very beginning of the chapter states what kind of advice a therapist would give now vs. thirty years ago. I'm not sure either one is consistent with general therapeutic advice of either decade. I certainly know that I've talked to many many therapists, and none of them have ever stated anything even approaching his presumption.

Basically, my impression of his writing is that he is describing "self-esteem" in exactly the opposite way that it is usually referred to in therapy. When therapists are trying to improve self-esteem, it's been my experience that they are referring to what is defined in one of the articles as global self-esteem:

"Global self-esteem: An overall estimate of general self-worth; a level of self-acceptance or respect for ones-self; a trait or tendency relatively stable and enduring, composed of all subordinate traits and characteristics within the self."

I think someone with that type of self-esteem doesn't have the fluctuations between self-esteem and self-damnation that Mills speaks about. I know for myself, developing my own self-esteem has meant that I don't ascribe my entire self-worth to momentary actions. So, making a mistake isn't equated with being a bad person, it is simply something I can work on improving.

I do think there are some valid points to be raised. There does seem to be an effort in some circles to remove anything that might damage the self-esteem...for example, my friend described a science night at her granddaughter's school where every child received the same prize. While I think this may be valid for very very young children, "protecting" children from judgement doesn't prepare them for the judgements that will come later. And it actually validates the notion that one's sense of self is related to individual triumphs and failures.

Well, that's it for now...I'm sure I will have more later...just try to shut me up!!!

Jo

You brought up some very good points, Jo. I remember my children being in school and receiving the same prizes as the entire class even though they had made better grades. One of my step-sons was very upset, he was 12, at that system. He understood that they were trying to "level" the field and he stated that he knew that when he got in junior high, things would be different. So, we came up with a formula at home where the child that did really well during a week at school got extra privileges. I really think it helped our children prepare for junior and senior high. They entered feeling pretty self-assured and did well. They took chances and joined organizations that I don't think they would have joined if we had not corrected the grade school impression of everyone receiving the same reward...regardless of their efforts. They were all in the orchestra..one played golf and one played tennis, one took German...it was really cool to watch them.
In our case, self-esteem that was developed at home, was very important to those kids.

Septmorn.......i realize that you're very protective of "your own" and that is a fine trait. however, standing up for oneself is another way to develop self-esteem.and i do understand that we have some fragile people here, but don't you think that it's helpful for them to learn to cope with different opinions and different feedback? plus, i'd hate for someone with low self-esteem come over here to this forum and be afraid to post because we're all fighting. i hope this forum will be very welcoming and open and warm so that people with different degrees of self-esteem will come here and share and get acquainted with others who are experiencing the same things. i'm really appreciative that we have this place.......xoxox pat

[SeptemberMorn]

Why is it that you think I'm "fighting"? I don't think I am. It's just that I don't agree that self-esteem is a hinderance. It's almost hilarious.

All I'm doing is stating my opinion. Why aren't I allowed? Please. I want some honest feedback on this.

[SeptemberMorn]

I don't know what questions you asked me. I've gone through the thread and didn't find them. Maybe that's why I haven't answered them?

[LMo]

*I* didn't think you were fighting...

But you and I are a lot alike, Sept. We are both able to have discussions around controversy and then tell a joke a minute later. Us bigmouths really aren't as hypersensitive as some of the people we blab to, so it might sound like fighting to THEM, but to us, we're just statning an opinion.

Anyway, I agree with most of your points but this thread is too full of info for my tiny brain

[SeptemberMorn]

Thank you, MJ!! Don't EVEN think I'm gonna try to shut you up! LOL

SeptMorn, perhaps "fighting" was too strong a word for the exchanges that are going on here in the forum. maybe "unpleasant" would have been more appropriate. "throwing down a gauntlet" could have been descriptive of some of the posts. i just don't see what it hurts for us to have differing opinions here. i learn from everyone here. i see things that i don't agree with, but it's just typed words on a computer...so why get my panties in a wad over that? i realize that i have become very impatient with both AG and IG at different times. i've stepped back and looked at my behavior and made decisions to do things differently from now on.
there weren't any questions for you from me on this forum. they were for Etienne. sorry for the misunderstanding. pat

[LMo]

Okay, in my bigmouth way, here is what I think about Etienne's concept:

I think this is a classic case of somebody existentially overanalyzing a concept. You could take anything -- self-esteem, personal grooming, performance reviews... and argue points against why people place the wrong emphasis on them.

It's too much work to debate this one, IMO. We could debate it for years and not be done. I'd rather just move on to more interesting things.

[SeptemberMorn]

Alright! There's my girl! I made the last post before this one before I read your post. THANK YOU! Exactly! I was just stating my opinion! It's so nice to be understood!