so at church this past sunday the pastor said something that kind of upset me. he said something about how self-esteem was a crock and that we could only get true self-worth from god. then he said something about how we really aren't worthy, and then he said something about how we can only be "worthy" through god.

none of it really made sense to me. i kind of shut down when he started talking about self-esteem. he said it was "a lie believed to be true" or something.

ugh, christianity is so confusing. i don't know how god is supposed to make us feel better when he created us to be so inferior and worthless.

half the time i can't decide if i believe it or not.

but the main point is, the whole time i've considered being christian i get pummeled with the idea that i'm worthless and i have nothing to be proud of because if i don't believe in god or whatever then i have nothing to live for.

i have no idea if any of that made sense...but christianity doesn't make sense to me right now either. check back in a few days, i may have figured it out by then. but right now, it's so confusing. i don't know if i want to go back to church anymore.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by DreamAddiction37

i don't know if i want to go back to church anymore.

This man's Christianity may not be everyone's Christianity. Heck, it might not even be Jesus's.

[Inedible]

The pastor probably saw another example recently of self esteem being taken too far, to the point where it is not helpful anymore. For something like this that doesn't come from the Bible you can probably conclude fairly safely that he is talking about himself more than anything. He brought in God so it is even possible that the pastor himself is having doubts about God right now. This is doubly a problem for him because when his religion is in question so is his career / purpose in life. It isn't just a job, it is a calling. And now the voice on the other end of the phone might not be there for him. If you do go back you could probably have some fun examining the pastor and deciding what may have motivated his rants.

i don't really want to analyze the pastor. it's just that he seems to have everything together - happy family with a bubbly wife and brand new baby, they just raised a church that keeps growing every sunday, just bought a new house they're remodeling...

so it just seems like he has plenty of reason to not worry about his own self-esteem, or anyone else's for that matter.

just seems like that's how it always is, for every church i've been to, they're always preaching that you're worthless without God, and that just makes me feel worse because i don't feel a connection to God. never really have.

i feel a spiritual connection to something, but it's not to this christian God.

oh, he also said self-help books don't work at all, and i'm sure he said something about therapists, which is a load of crap right there...

just really irritating.

[Inedible]

People who are good at projecting a successful image are often a wreck, and good at hiding it. His job depends on being seen as a success.

[Vibe]

This side of religion is used to control people. I personally find it to be abusive and destructive.

If you don't think this particular church is meeting your needs, you're free to find one which fits you better.

i don't even like church though, never did. xP just going for my husband and kids. and for what little social interaction i get throughout the week.

[krisakira]

You have the right to self esteem and self worth. There is a nasty side of Christianity that says you are nothing without god, your actions mean nothing unless its all about god, and it even says in the bible that people are "filthy rags" before supposedly being saved and forgiven. This is udder bullcrap. You are an important person all by yourself and have worth that comes from just existing on this planet. NEVER let people like this being you down! But remember, if you still do want a Christian perspective, it DOES say that loving yourself is the 3rd most important thing in life. The first 2 being love your god and love other people.

[Travelinglady]

It does seem confusing, doesn't it? I'm not saying that your pastor has issues, since I wasn't there to actually hear what he said, and it sounds like you sort of tuned him in and out. So, I can't speak about what, if anything, might be going on with him personally. From what you said, he does sound like he made some strong statements, however!

I know the Bible does say, "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Mark 12:31). God does expect us to care for ourselves as His children. We are created in God's image. He loves us more than any other of His creations. The danger comes in when people begin to see themselves as gods. That was the devil's failing.

Self-esteem has been overly emphasized the last number of years. I know even teachers have been taught not to do anything to "hurt" children's self-esteem, to the point where someone said, "We've never had so many people now feeling so good about being so dumb," or words to that effect. Why, we were even told not to use red pens to mark errors, to always find something good to say about a student's work, and so forth. (I was a college prof for 20 years, and I even taught "Educational Psychology.") Maybe this trend is what the pastor was driving at.

It does sound as if, from my personal opinion, he was throwing the baby out with the bath water. Of course, many fundamentalists see psychology itself as the work of the devil. True, many famous people in this line of work have not been Christians, but I know psychologists who are.

One subject of contention in the religion field has been what is called "worm theology." That is, the idea that people are like worms to God, worthless. I believe we need to be humble, but God is portrayed in the Bible as like a loving father to us.

Do you feel this love in the church you are attending? Have you experienced that special feeling of love that only God can provide? Is this pastor loving and does he talk about God's love and mercy? It could be that this church is more "fundamental" than you feel comfortable with. I truly hope you will discover what Christianity is really about. The New Testament, especially the Book of John, is a good place to start.

I won't address all the issues other people brought up. However, the Bible does not say we are "filthy rags" until we are saved, Krisa. It says that all the good things we do are like filthy rags, because being good is not the way to salvation. Salvation is a gift from God. And loving ourselves is not necessarily the "third" factor, but it's true about loving God and loving others being crucial. Thanks for sharing that part! However, if we don't love ourselves then we will have a hard time loving others. The Bible also says "We love because God first loved us" (1 John 4:19). : )

I hope my addressing religious issues here is not a problem. The topic warranted what I said, I believe.

[krisakira]

It's the same principle. Doing a good deed should NEVER be classified as a filthy rag, no matter what you believe. Doing good things should make you proud of yourself and who you are. Don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise.

[Travelinglady]

I understand what you mean. That was rather a harsh way of making the point.

[NoCake]

A child of God has nothing to be ashamed of. And it is written that none should feel shame when speaking to Him for he sees all and forgives all that walk through Christ.

This is written...

[AeonDM]

Wikipedia-Self-esteem is a term used in psychology to reflect a person's overall emotional evaluation of his or her own worth. It is a judgement of oneself as well as an attitude toward the self.

To me it is just a tool for evaluating myself. Am I worthy to live my life? Yes. Am I worthy to love, to hope and to have faith in my own beliefs? Yes. Am I worthy of myself? Yes. Am I worthy to evaluate myself that I am know myself? Yes. Why? Because I am born a human.

[2_b_free]

You don't have to be Christian to be a good person, anyone of any faith or none can be kind, generous, understanding; Christians do not corner the market when it comes to being a decent person. I grew up believing God is perfect and has a personal relationship with each person. My god tells me to be kind and gentle and to treat others well, but treat myself with kindness and respect too. I have been fighting depression and low self esteem all my life but getting healthier means not letting other people tell me I am nothing, unworthy.

Remember this Pastor is a man, not a god. He goes home and poops, gets erections and fights with his wife. He is not right telling you anything about what god thinks, he doesn't know, he's giving his opinion as facts and making crap up along the way. I would walk up to him and tell him that God wants him to stop speaking for him and stop telling people they are unworthy, nothing.

[Travelinglady]

That would be rather blunt. I suggest you let your feet do the talking--by walking away from that church and finding one that's less harsh. This pastor would not listen to any parisihioner speaking to him that way. I'm sure he DOES think he is speaking for God.

[redbandit]

Originally Posted by krisakira

You have the right to self esteem and self worth. There is a nasty side of Christianity that says you are nothing without god, your actions mean nothing unless its all about god, and it even says in the bible that people are "filthy rags" before supposedly being saved and forgiven. This is udder bullcrap. You are an important person all by yourself and have worth that comes from just existing on this planet. NEVER let people like this being you down! But remember, if you still do want a Christian perspective, it DOES say that loving yourself is the 3rd most important thing in life. The first 2 being love your god and love other people.

The Bible verse is actually stated that our "good works" are AS filthy rags. I understand how many ppl get turned off by churches and some "Christians" because they can come off as very judgmental. One friend of mine said "people don't need to have self-esteem, self-esteem is just pride" uh huh.....

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by redbandit

The Bible verse is actually stated that our "good works" are AS filthy rags.

I don't know that verse -- but -- some person wrote it. That was his point of view. That's all, in my judgement.

[Travelinglady]

Hey, Pachy! I don't think I'd better get into my thoughts on the origin of scriptures here! (Don't want one of those messages!)

Good to see you posting!

Do you need christianity? Do you need to go back to church? If you're going to be spiritual, you should be authentic. I don't think most christians, at least here in Norway, are authentic, and they shouldn't call themselves christians. Jesus is supposed to save you if you believe in him. Do you really? It sounds like you have your own beliefs, and you should embrace your true self. Don't let missionaries fool you.

I am a devout Christian, but I won't take the word of a pastor just because he is a pastor. I believe what I read and study and think about and determine for myself to be true, not what somebody else tells me.

On Christianity and self-esteem, the Bible does say we shouldn't think about ourselves more highly than we ought, but that isn't saying we shouldn't think highly of ourselves at all. So many people, clergy and laity alike, misunderstand that.

when you hear a pastor telling you that you're not worthy, just tune it out. I hate it when he says that. Tell yourself this: Nobody makes me feel inferior without my consent.
christianity is a huge mess, to be honest. I don't want to bash it or anything, but everyone has their own interpretation. Some think this is wrong while others think it's not. i mean, why do you think we have so many christian denominations? Because we all think differently.

[Belmore]

My reverent said God does not create garbish so I don't know why your pastor would say we not worthy we became worthy when Jesus died for us on the cross. God loves you very much don't pay much attention into preaching gibberish. I once heard a person saying that depression is the devil and evil coming into your life. I've almost fell off my chair laughing at him and told him you know nothing about depression or a relationship with jesus!

[gaia67]

Originally Posted by Vibe

This side of reIt's ok to I'mion is used to control people. I personally find it to be abusive and destructive.

If you don't think this particular church is meeting your needs, you're free to find one which fits you better.

I agree. Or even no church at all. It's ok to not believe.

This bumper sticker I saw sums it up for me:

Dear God ... Save Me From Your People ... Amen!