Can you parents be considered abusive even if they are good, loving parents as well?

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I read through the list of forums and this one seems to be the most appropriate. This is probably going to be huge. I plan on talking to a therapist about it, but at the moment that is not possible. I also feel like I have so much to say that I would need several sessions before I could get it all out.

I feel weird talking about this because I know lots of people have it so much worse, but lately, after having a lot of conflict with my parents, I have started to think a lot more about how I was treated growing up. Instead of viewing how I was treated as not ideal but probably normal and common, I'm starting to view it as really unacceptable and perhaps downright abusive. What confuses me a lot if that while my parents did a lot of questionable stuff that I would never dream of doing with child, let alone my own, they could also be very loving, caring and supportive. They were very affectionate, bought me many things I asked, took me on vacation to nice places, claim to love me and do act like it when everything is going well, they help me even if they are angry at me, think I am very intelligent and tell me I’m smart, often ask me for help with things they know I’m good at, etc.

I'm mostly ok with my life at this point and until the conflicts began recently, I had pretty much forgiven them and chose to believe that nothing is perfect and whatever happened just made me stronger and got me where I am. I have been to therapy and talked about a lot of things and worked through them but only recently I'm viewing upbringing from a different angle.

The reason I'm posting is because I find it incredibly hard to be kind and patient with my parents. Specially when they are being annoying, nosy, controlling, bossy, not respectful of my wishes or requests or otherwise irritating me. And while trying to figure out why I'm acting rude and in a bad mood a lot of the time, towards them, I started to remember a lot of incidents from my childhood, from silly things to bigger things...all of which upset me at the time and some upset me even now. As a background, I remember being very anxious and shy as child. The anxiety only increased with time to the point where I started having major anxiety and panic attacks.

# when I was 3 or 4 I remember standing by a window to wait for my dad to come home. My mom was with me and I guess I got distracted waiting for him and I peed my pants. My mom was angry at me and I remember feeling horrible. I felt stupid and embarrassed, like I had done something wrong. I don't remember how angry she was or what exactly she said (something along the lines of "why did you do that??") but I remember clearly how I felt.
# again, same age, and my mother was recording a song from a vinyl to a tape recorder and had told me to be silent. I talked for some reason and again, she got angry and again I felt really bad.
# every time I did not want to do something, my mother would turn it into a competition with my younger sister. She would say something like: you sister is going to be first, she is going to beat you to it. She is going to be faster, etc. It made me really angry. I remember not caring about being first or "better", I cared that she made it seem like even though I was older, I could not be as mature or as good as my younger sister.
# if my sister and I fought (whatever the age), and she ended up crying, I would get yelled at or punished or spanked, regardless if I started it or not of if it was my fault. My mother did not care. I feel like she favored my sister, but even that wasn't the hugest issue because often I felt like I disliked my mom and didn't care that I wasn't her favorite, I just wanted to be treated fairly.
# needless to say I never liked my sister much and my relationship with her was never very good. Only after my 20s or so we started getting along somewhat but she often picks fights or treats me disrespectfully and I don't have a lot of patience with her either.
# my mother would spank me out of anger and I remember how angry I felt about that. It wasn't anything excessive, it was just a spanking with her hand on my butt. It did hurt usually, but what upset/angered me the most was the fact that sometimes it was not deserved at all and as far as I can remember, all of the times were done out of anger, I could see it in her face. In fact, as I got older I would look her in the eye and say she would not hit me, and cover my but with my hands or sit somewhere while she would try to spank me anyway. Sometimes I would look in her eyes and say to here: "That didn't even hurt" in a defiant tone just to piss her off to get back at her for being so angry at me.
# As far as I can remember, my parents have fought with each other, screaming and offending each other (not extremely insulting, could be worse, but bad enough that I would feel sad and bad for the one being insulted). The fighting made me very anxious and scared. Each time I would worry that they would divorce and that seemed like something really scary to me.
# My mother has always been very strict and controlling, and my father to,o though in different ways and perhaps to a lesser extent. That often made me angry and caused arguments because some of the rules made no sense and I felt like I could not be myself around them.
# I had to move to different cities at least 4 times. That is not abusive, obviously, but it did not help my shyness and anxiety.
# From the time I was around 10 I would often get horrible stomach pains and ask to stay home from school because it was really bad. I was taken to a doctor but eventually they just thought I was faking it so I didn't have to go to school. At that point I didn't like school but did not mind going. The pains were very real and to this day I sometimes have them. Luckily not nearly as often.
# One time when I was about 12, we were about to move back to the city we were living at previously. My mom was going to travel there to make necessary arrangements and I was very anxious about her going, felt that something bad would happen (but I never told her that because I thought it was dumb and I would be ridiculed) and asked to please go with her. She said no, of course. I was really upset and cried inconsolably and begged her to please take me. She said I had to go to school. I said it was the last day, that it did not matter, kept begging her. She said I was going, that I could either go crying and be embarrassed or stop crying. I could not stop crying and hearing that made me cry even more. Long story short, I had to go, could not stop crying, everyone asked me what was wrong. I felt extremely embarrassed and humiliated. As far as I can remember, my classmates were nice to me, though. They thought I was sad about moving to another school. If only, I actually wanted to move back to that city.
# At least a few times I was blamed for making my parents fight with each other.
# Once my mother clearly told that things were very difficult and if they divorced, it would be my fault.
# She also told me at least once that my dad was very stressed and I was stressing him out with my behavior (which I admit, was hard to handle sometimes, I was not submissive at all and if they yelled at me I would yell back at them) and that he would have a heart attack from all that stress or that stress caused cancer and that he could get cancer because his father had just died from that...and of course that would be because of how difficult I was and how much stress I caused them.
# My dad was no saint either and whenever he got angry he would scream very out of control in an aggressive way. He would constantly make me cry. If I didn’t want to do something or I did something stupid or wrong he would flat out call me stupid or yell at me until I cried and even then it would take a while for him to stop.
# He would also have fights with my mother in public, screaming in restaurants even...or if he got angry at something that happened while going out as a family. It was extremely embarrassing and humiliating. That got better eventually. But he still screams excessively when angry and blames me for it. He also blamed and still sometimes blames me when he and my mother fight. He is very verbally aggressive and insults my mother or me when we do something that upsets him.
# As I got older, at around 14-15, my anxiety pretty out of control. But I didn't know what was happening to me, I thought I was sick with a heart condition or something and I had no idea what to do. I felt embarrassed to talk to them, felt like I was going to be ridiculed. Eventually it got really bad that I felt like I was having a heart attack and felt like I had no choice but to tell them that I thought I had to go to the E.R. They were worried and took me there immediately and I was monitored and was told I was fine but to go to a cardiologist. I was taken to the cardiologist and was scared out of my mind that I was dying or something. At this point I was scared to be alone, to go to school, to do anything really. It made me extremely anxious to the point I felt like I was going to pass out or puke or something else embarrassing. The cardiologist had me do a heart monitoring thing where I had to use a device that was pretty bulky and I was of course extremely anxious about wearing that to school and begged and begged for my mom to let me stay home. She of course refused, so I went, panicking the whole time. At one point it got extremely unbearable and I had the school call her to take me home. I don't remember if she did or not, I think she might have.
# The cardiologist found nothing wrong with me and told her and my that I had panic syndrome and advised my mom to take me to a psychologist or psychiatrist to possibly get medication and also prescribed me something. I do not know what it was but was told it was to lower my heart rate. I felt very worried about taking (shocking, huh), I thought it could lower my heart rate too much if I happened to not be so anxious. My mother acted unsure and as if she was against me taking the medication, and left it up to me to decide, so of course I did not take it.
# Needless to say, I was not taken to a therapist, much less a psychiatrist. My mom would tell me that if I went, it would be in my medical record forever and whenever I needed to get a job or whatever, they could find out about it. I believed her, but did not care about that one bit, I just wanted to feel better. I was not taken to any other doctor. Instead, she got some rescue remedy and gave me that to take when things got too bad. Obviously, that did not even begin to touch the problem.
# Since I was feeling so horrible, and I thought I was possibly insane since apparently I wasn't physically sick, I did not want people to know that there was anything wrong with me and having to go to school was a nightmare. I hated it and would often cry inconsolable and beg her to let me stay home. I don't remember if that ever worked, all I remember was her screaming at me, hinting that I was insane and at least on one occasion she flat out told me I was in fact crazy. On another occasion she told me she would need to have me committed if I did not stop acting like that and that it would involve me going through electroshock therapy.

I'll spare you from any more details, those were the major incidents. I was also mocked a lot by my younger sister, after my anxiety started. Basically called a baby for acting that way. She would also bring up the fact that I had no friends, as if I was loser because of that. I don't recall my parents doing anything about that. When I would say bad things about her or call her names, call her fat or whatever, my mother would insult me back. I do not remember her ever insulting my sister when my sister insulted me.

Eventually, by the time I was 16 or 17 my parents FINALLY took me to a psychologist but it was a horrible one and one day I got fed up and decided to look for information on the internet. Little by little I was able to find a way to cope with the panic and anxiety and by the time I was about 19, I could function again, albeit with a lot of anxiety. But panic attacks were not as frequent and manageable. Eventually by the time I was 21 or so I was pretty much cured from the panic attacks, but still more anxious than normal. The panic/extreme anxiety and depression came back a few times but I was able to control it until one day, when I went on a really amazing trip I was looking forward to, I felt nothing. Completely numb. The only thing I could feel was sadness over the fact that I felt nothing. I could not stop crying. I was fine before going, and going to a very good therapist I had found a few years before. Once I came back from the trip I told her about what happened and she told me it was likely from anxiety, that I probably had a chemical imbalance and told me to go to a psychiatrist to go on some medication. I was very scared to go, and then after I went very scared to take the meds, I thought they would make me feel worse or have bad side effects. I worked up the courage to take them and my life was completely changed. I wish I had done that years ago. Within a month I felt so normal, I had no idea how anxious I was until I suddenly wasn't anymore. It was amazing, I could not believe it. I took the meds for the recommended time (a little over one year) and was able to go off them recently(now in my early thirties) and feel fine.

Unsurprisingly, from the time I was about 14 to my early 20s, I started distancing myself emotionally from my parents. I didn't hug them or kiss them unless they asked or it was socially expected, such as when wishing them a happy birthday. But even then I kept it short and did not enjoy it. It's the same as nothing to me. I call my parents by their names, which they hate but I just feel weird calling them mom and dad. For the first 5 years or so they would complain about that. My mom specially. That I didn't hug her, that I was so withdrawn and rude, that I should be more loving like my sister. I didn't care. They still don't like that I'm not very affectionate and call them by their names, but what can you do. I'm not very affectionate with people I'm not close to either, so it is what it is.

I’m mostly over all of this. I don’t even live in the same country as them anymore. If my parents hadn’t come to visit recently this would maybe never come to light. Before I didn’t even care anymore about the past. Now, I feel like what they did was kind of horrible (but I know many people have it much worse).

Am I just being a big baby about all of this and a mean person for not being able to have a better relationship with them and not being very patient? Is the way they treated me normal and I'm just too sensitive and resentful? I do admit that while I'm able to forgive, I'm not quick to forget. I never really forget, specially when I'm hurt again in the same way, it just brings it all back.

I would like some advice on how to process/deal with this and how to be able to not be so angry at them and be able to have a less rocky relationship when we have to meet in person. If that’s even possible.

I'm sorry this is so long and thank you so much if you read the whole thing.

Learning to address anger, needn't be about them, specifically. Sounds like there was a tremendous amount of dysfunction, at the very least. Dysfunction can wreak havoc on individuals.
Forgiveness, can be something that you do, for yourself, for your wellness, for your own peace of mind. Doesn't mean that you'd need to increase nor decrease contact.
No need to minimize your experience, either, you are just as worthy of being here, as anyone else.

You are not being a big baby or mean or anything like that. Clearly your parents are emotionally abusive. This is a serious thing, and you have a right to validate it.

I see a number of emotionally abusive experiences in your situation: favoritism (you being the scapegoat, your sister being the golden child), unfair blaming (you are not to blame for their marital problems!), insensitivity to your emotional needs, manipulation, and on and on.

Abusers can certainly be loving and affectionate, so the two aren't incompatible. The fact that some survivors have unaffectionate parents doesn't invalidate your experiences. It's just a different set of experiences. Abusive parents can also appear to be supporting us and boosting our self-esteem, but when their compliments contradict their behavior, we feel there's something fake in them, so it's not real support. That might be what happened in your family.

There's a lot I could identify with in your experiences. My parents were also loving and affectionate and convinced me that we were a loving family. They also appeared to tell me often that I was wonderful. It took me years to realize that I was wonderful only when I did what they wanted. They trained me to hide who I really was and to be only who they wanted me to be.

I also experienced a lot of anxiety as a child, teen, and young adult, though it never got to the point of needing medications. I also was often depressed (though again, not to the point of having trouble functioning). I, however, learned to hide all of it because I learned early that they didn't like to see negative emotions. I had perfect parents, right, so why should I be anxious and depressed?

Anger is not only natural but, in my opinion, healthy. My healing began only when I allowed myself to be angry at them. That lasted quite a while. I don't feel angry anymore, but I also don't even think of it in terms of forgiveness. (This is an extremely complex issue when it comes to abuse of any kind, so I prefer not to open that can of worms. Forgiving abusers is a personal thing.) I think of it in terms of understanding. I realize now that my parents are mentally ill and abuse survivors themselves, and everything they did was a reaction to those painful experiences. At the same time, they hurt me constantly when I was in contact with them, and I have a right to validate that.

I definitely recommend therapy as soon as you can get it. Please make sure your therapist understands emotional abuse. Unfortunately, not all of them do. If s/he tries to convince you that their behavior was normal and you're being over-sensitive or whatever, I strongly recommend you find another therapist! It's that important to talk to someone who validates your experiences.

There are also books out there on emotional abuse. A great one is called "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward. She does write about physical abuse and sexual abuse as well, but there's a lot about emotional abuse in there. It was my wake-up call! There are also a couple more that you might find interesting, like "Cutting Loose" by Howard Halpern and "If You Had Controlling Parents" by Dan Neuharth.

As far as getting over the anger, it's going to take time. I really believe the worst thing an abuse survivor can do is try to get over it too soon. There's a lot to be angry about, and we need to give ourselves the space to be as angry as we need to be for as long as we need to be angry.

It's totally reasonable to lose patience with their behavior as you begin to validate their abuse. It might be a good idea to minimize contact with them as you begin your healing journey to save yourself as much aggravation as possible. (Minimizing contact with your sister might be a good idea as well since it seems she doesn't understand the issues.) At some point, you'll be able to decide whether you really want any contact with them. When you absolutely have to see them, it might be best to continue to be emotionally distant to minimize their behavior.

All of this is to say that there definitely sounds like there was/is emotional abuse in your family and your anger is natural. I really do think reading one or more of the books I noted above will be a helpful first step. Stay strong! Things will get better!

i also read toxic parents and it was a great eye opener. i think i read it a couple years ago, before i would've ever thought to call my mom abusive. it helped me understand a little bit. i think it was getting me ready for having to accept the full extent of abuse.
cause i totally can relate to not knowing if the abuse was "bad enough" cause your parents were good.
i grew up thinking my mom was the best most loving person in the world. and now whenever i try to bring any of it up she says i'm just doing it to hurt her.
if you're having a hard time because you love them too much, just bring up the abuse and the way they react will piss you off enough to start to be able to validate your own experiences

Did you invite them or did they invite themselves? I have all the books mentioned and more. Dont let yourself be sucked back into their craziness. You deserve a peaceful life.

Thank you for your kind words. I thought I had forgiven them, but I also thought it wasn't too bad and that it was partly my fault as well because I could be very difficult at times even though I was very well behaved and never really acted out like most children and teens do.

Thank you so much for your message, it was very helpful. I will definitely read the books you mention. I'm finding it very hard to deal with this, because when everything is going well and my parents are not stressed, they act like perfectly normal and loving human beings and I feel like I'm a horrible person for thinking that they are anything less than that. They are still in my home and I mostly stay in my bedroom because I just do not feel like interacting with them and it's really the only way to avoid conflict. Now that I'm barely spending time with them, I'm able to act either fake nice or indifferent, but I feel horribly guilty about it. I feel like they are probably thinking that I don't like them. And maybe I don't, which makes me really sad. I see how they are nice people, but not me. Well, they are, as long as I act like they expect me to. But, if we spend a lot of time together, we will end up fighting, guaranteed. Usually about the dumbest things ever. And yes, I am to blame too, because I can't keep my mouth shut sometimes. But even when I do keep quiet, if something that one of them considers stressful or aggravating happens, they will get angry and fight with each other. Only they are allowed to get angry, I suppose.

I have a hard time thinking they aren't really mean people for treating me the way they did when I was younger, but I know that most likely they thought they were doing nothing wrong, or they would have changed. But at the same time, how can someone think that their kid is a "trouble maker", making them fight, too angry, etc and not want to investigate why? Perhaps if they paid attention they would see that I acted the way I did because they did not respect me, all they cared about was that me and my sister respected THEM. I never saw that as wrong or as them being disrespectful to me, but I do now.

I also feel really bad that they have said they regret coming here to visit me. I'm not sure if they mean it or not, but they have said it several times. Sometimes they blame it on being away from home and travelling being stressful, but it all started with them blaming me, for asking them to come and treating them badly. I never flat out asked them to come though, I just said that they would enjoy the city I'm living in and they should come because it's pretty good. But I didn't care either way (sadly). I didn't mind having them visit me, but if I knew it was going to be like this I would never have said anything. It's now a horrible memory and I will always think I ruined everything. I guess I didn't think it through. We/They have never taken a trip together without fighting, whenever we spend more than a couple of hours together, we get into a disagreement or fight.

But like I said, it's extremely hard because when it's going well they are really really nice. Even if I tell them I hate them or whatever, they will still help me if I need it. Even if my father says he will "give up on me" like he has many times, he never does. And to be fair, I think they do love me, I don't think they fake it or pretend just to manipulate me. They never really ask anything from me, nothing major at least. They don't expect me to contact them regularly, or to take care of them or anything like that. It's like they just don't think, like they don't know how to act differently but it's extremely difficult to not think they are just horrible mean people who only like me when I'm "good" because they only TREAT me nicely when I'm good (even though apparently they love me regardless).

Thank you, I will read Toxic Parents first. You have a point about bringing it up with them. I have many times in the past, and it's just like you say. Recently it was only minor things and what happens is, I'm accused of dwelling in the past, why can't I just let it go and move on, look ahead...why am I so sensitive or for some things, they just flat out deny even doing it, like the spanking, for instance. My mom casually mentioned something about spanking, criticizing someone and I said "But you used to spank us!" and she is like, no way, I never did that. And I tell her, you most certainly did, I remember running from you several times, and telling you it didn't hurt you just to piss you off. Then she's like, yeah, I did spank you once. But only once. Right, once. LOL. To be fair, a few times I have mentioned a couple of different things, my dad did say that he would have done differently and semi apologized for my mom.

I'm pretty sure my mom has some kind of mental illness and has had it for a long time, but it's hard to think she is not just spoiled and bossy. If it was depression or OCD or any other illness that was not so freaking mean, it would be easier to be compassionate. But whatever it is that she has makes it very hard for me to feel any compassion because I figure that if I could overcome horrible anxiety and panic as a teenager, why can't she at least TRY to be different? My dad too. Why can't they admit that maybe, just maybe, they should act differently? At the very least not be so quick to get angry when I'm anything less than perfect, because like it or not, they are partly to blame because they kind of taught me to act this way. They were the only examples I had for a long time.

Its hard. Our generation has one foot in america and one foot in the old country. We dont do things all the old way but we dont do things completely the new way either.

I dont see a need to make a decision one way or the other, as to whether or not they were abusive. It seems more like, how do you get along day to day for as long as the visit lasts, without falling into old patterns? .

Your parents probably have a personality disorder or two. Parents sometimes want to give their children everything they have even if its not healthy; they think they are being heroic and will remind you of all they have given you. No you are not being rude for declining to accept. Remind them you have not accepted. Don't take the blame. Don't let them plant a seed of doubt in you because those things grow really big. Try not to hate. Hell is a place of loathing. All loathing is self loathing. It doesn't start out that way but it always ends up that way. Your sibs are probably suffering like you are. Are you too old to be adopted? Have you ever read Pippi Longstocking?

Most people aren't all good or all bad, which can make it so much harder to acknowledge the bad parts.

Sometimes, good or basically good people are not necessarily good parents, but not bad. My father had his issues, never intentionally "mean" but sometimes quick to yell. Many of his issues were the result of alcohol which I learned was a result of a rough childhood himself. I never met him, but his father, my grandfather was I was told a mean, mean man. How much did that impact my dad? A lot I am sure.

I came to terms with any issues I may have had with him by realizing he did try to be good. But as a parent of three, i know I would like a do over of certain events with my children. But you don't get it. I am not suggesting you feel one way or the other but maybe they did what they thought was right, but we're wrong.

I've been in a somewhat similar situation. I remember all the stuff that happened over the years, but I don't know what to make of it. My parents were extremely loving and supportive at times, but I've had a very hard time really trusting them. Although my parents never yelled at me to make me cry, there were some events over the years that were extremely over the top and disturbing to me. When I brought them up, their reaction did really infuriate me at times. They would often try to minimize and avoid admitting to the things they did. As time has gone on, they did accept it and have even agreed to go to counseling with me to talk about it. I really would not consider my family to have been abusive as a whole, but there were some very disturbing incidents.

Parents who blame children for their problems need therapy. I was also blamed for most of my parents fights. Also, if my younger brothers did something they weren't supposed and I was with them I got blamed. They told me "You're the oldest and need to set an example for them". I was 10 yrs old. No child of that age is responsible for anyone else. It's hard enough to just do what you're supposed to do at that age. My Mother used to compare me to my friends and say "Why can't you be more like her?". My father was usually the one who spanked us. Mom would slap us across the face. I remember when I was 13 and Dad came after me with the paddle and left huge welts on my butt and thighs. The next day he apologized but told me I should wear long pants until the welts went away. My Mother was an alcoholic who was jealous of the relationship between my Father and I. (nothing sexual, we were just closer than my Mom and I) Once when she was drunk she told me what a disappointment I was. She had a knife in her hand and put it in mine and told me I should just stab her in the heart because she couldn't take it anymore. All of these things an more were not appropriate parenting. Children should never be afraid of their parents and parents should never spank when angry. Sounds to me like your Mother played a lot of head games with you and that is not OK. It is OK, however, for you to put up boundaries. For example "Mom, I don't want to see you if you are going to continue to belittle me". Just because she is your Mom doesn't mean she can act that way towards you or anyone else. I hope you find peace. Therapy does work! There is light at the end of the tunnel!

I read the title (which was enough for me) and I can say yes. This might not be the same, but... My parents thought they were learning me in the name of good. My father was way heavy handed and ruled by leather and the beatings were lengthy. My mother would just come at me unrelentlessly out of love???
Ultimately, I've now over hundreds of alters in a multiple personality type disorder called DID.

It's so sad that family abuse rivals ritual abuse. I'm sorry for all of us.

I was always wondering the same thing, however i don't know my father and my mother never shown me any 'love' or 'affection' so i don't really know much about those. my grandma on the other hand was the one to help me, 'love' me and so on. i believe it was the same for my 2 brothers. My mother is kind towards me, however she treats me more like a very close friend, instead of daughter.

There are many types of monsters that scare me: Monsters who cause trouble without showing themselves, monsters who abduct children, monsters who devour dreams, monsters who suck blood... and then, monsters who tell nothing but lies. Lying monsters are a real nuisance: They are much more cunning than others. They pose as humans even though they have no understanding of the human heart; they eat even though they've never experienced hunger; they study even though they have no interest in academics; they seek friendship even though they do not know how to love. If I were to encounter such monsters, I would likely be eaten by them... because in truth, I am that monster.
-L (Death Note, Tsugumi Obha)

My parents did some loving caring things and some abusive and horrible things. My T says this is hard to get your head around as it creates such a conflict in your mind.

The good doesn't cancel out the bad...