"I don't like the pressure that people put on me, on women - that you've failed yourself as a female because you haven't procreated. I don't think it's fair. You may not have a child come out of your vagina, but that doesn't mean you aren't mothering - dogs, friends, friends' children."

- Jennifer Aniston

Well said Ms. Aniston!

"When we found out that getting pregnant was going to be difficult to impossible, it really was a choice to stop. I feel like I wanted families, couples to know that it was a valid choice not to get on this crazy merry-go-round of IVF and tens of thousands of dollars...I wanted people to feel - men and women - it's okay to say 'I love my marriage, I love my life, I choose not to have children.'"

- Aisha Tyler

I wanted to share two women's truths. Truths which don't often get expressed or validated in today's world. May all women find peace as they make the choices which are best for them in their individual lives...whatever those choices may be...regardless of Society's biases and pressures.

Would anyone like to share their truth? Particularly truths that we don't often hear from women in the non-PC world.

[romantic rose]

I'm not maternal at all and get nervous around kids. Every other women I know coos over them and dotes over other people's children, and I don't feel anything like that, just worry that they are going to notice that I am not reacting in that way. Not saying I don't like kids but every woman I know of my age has kids and it makes topics of conversation uncomfortable.

Having said that, I love dogs and coo over them, and animals in general. Would say I prefer animals to people. But I do feel like a freak because I don't have the maternal instinct, if I do have any it is towards animals.

Originally Posted by romantic rose

I'm not maternal at all and get nervous around kids. Every other women I know coos over them and dotes over other people's children, and I don't feel anything like that, just worry that they are going to notice that I am not reacting in that way. Not saying I don't like kids but every woman I know of my age has kids and it makes topics of conversation uncomfortable.

Having said that, I love dogs and coo over them, and animals in general. Would say I prefer animals to people. But I do feel like a freak because I don't have the maternal instinct, if I do have any it is towards animals.

Thank you for sharing. You are NOT a freak. Jennifer Aniston would probably say you do have a maternal instinct because you mother animals. We need to move away from the "less than" or "weird" notions about women who don't marry or choose not to have children. Dialogue in a safe space helps

Have you ever dealt with this:
"I didn't grow up until I had a baby."
"You can't be a real woman if you don't have children."
"It is selfish to choose not to have children."
"Of course you'll have a baby! How could you not?!"
"You have to get married."
"Why aren't you married?"
"Why don't you have children? Was that a choice or because you can't??"

(I've experienced all of those more times than I could count)

I love children and worked with them for many years but I chose not to have children of my own. I also see nothing wrong with women who aren't comfortable around children. I have a friend like that. She's just not interested. And she LOVES horses. No problem

[romantic rose]

Yes, have had all these kinds of things said to me. It's very annoying, having to justify being single and childless. Am glad I am not the only one who feels that way around children. Thank you for sharing.

[Have Hope]

I personally don't feel that pressure myself and I don't have children nor do I plan on it. But I fully understand that other women, perhaps many women, feel pressured or receive pressure from their families or friends even. It's not really fair.

I don't believe it's a failure to not procreate. It's a personal choice and we as women are empowered to make that choice for ourselves. Just as we can choose to be single and unmarried for our whole lives, we can also choose to not procreate.

And Jen Aniston? All the tabloids constantly talk about her possibly having a baby and that having been an important desire of hers. I wonder what the real truth is? It's constantly in the media: Jen's having a baby! lol.

Originally Posted by Have Hope

I personally don't feel that pressure myself and I don't have children nor do I plan on it. But I fully understand that other women, perhaps many women, feel pressured or receive pressure from their families or friends even. It's not really fair.

I don't believe it's a failure to not procreate. It's a personal choice and we as women are empowered to make that choice for ourselves. Just as we can choose to be single and unmarried for our whole lives, we can also choose to not procreate.

And Jen Aniston? All the tabloids constantly talk about her possibly having a baby and that having been an important desire of hers. I wonder what the real truth is? It's constantly in the media: Jen's having a baby! lol.

I think that was partly what she was referring to in her quote. The woman is 50 years old, if she really wanted a baby, I think she would have had one by now or adopted. Constantly having stories about it must get old for her. Though she's obviously got good plenty of good things in her life

I am very surprised and happy to hear that you don't get the weird looks or rude comments about not having had children HaveHope. That is wonderful! Thanks for joining the thread.

[Have Hope]

Originally Posted by SilverTrees

I think that was partly what she was referring to in her quote. The woman is 50 years old, if she really wanted a baby, I think she would have had one by now or adopted. Constantly having stories about it must get old for her. Though she's obviously got good plenty of good things in her life

I am very surprised and happy to hear that you don't get the weird looks or rude comments about not having had children HaveHope. That is wonderful! Thanks for joining the thread.

I am guilty of following Jen Aniston's story, lol. I just wonder because there were real stories online in mags and quotes from friends saying she really wanted a baby. But yes, it must get VERY old for her, I would imagine.

Oh no... no rude looks or comments about not having babies. What I HAVE had though is "why aren't you married yet??!??" Now that's frustrating. I imagine it would be very frustrating regarding not having kids, too.

I suppose many people in this world believe that our life purpose is to get married and have children. If you don't, then what's wrong with you? Something must be wrong, is what many ppl will think.

I have the opposite viewpoint -- do what you want -- and do whatever makes you happiest! People can judge all they want... I don't mind because I am happy. There are many pathways to being happy.

You know what's interesting? My mother told me that the happiest people in this world are single women without children! It's written in some report, based on studies, and published by a major publication. Interesting, eh?

The truth: "Not all children are biological"

You can have "spiritual children" by becoming a godmother or a mentor.

You could also become a single adoptive or foster parent.

The truth #2: "You don't have to be a biological mother to use your motherly instinct"

Think about the volunteer advocate for women who've suffered sexual assault or domestic violence.

They probably do not want a man in the hospital room.

Being a woman and possessing the feminine sensitivity, you can use your motherly instinct to support them. You are not "useless" to society just because you don't have children of your own. In fact, if you don't have children of your own, you have more leeway in your schedule to be there for these women.

Originally Posted by Have Hope

I am guilty of following Jen Aniston's story, lol. I just wonder because there were real stories online in mags and quotes from friends saying she really wanted a baby. But yes, it must get VERY old for her, I would imagine.

Oh no... no rude looks or comments about not having babies. What I HAVE had though is "why aren't you married yet??!??" Now that's frustrating. I imagine it would be very frustrating regarding not having kids, too.

I suppose many people in this world believe that our life purpose is to get married and have children. If you don't, then what's wrong with you? Something must be wrong, is what many ppl will think.

I have the opposite viewpoint -- do what you want -- and do whatever makes you happiest! People can judge all they want... I don't mind because I am happy. There are many pathways to being happy.

You know what's interesting? My mother told me that the happiest people in this world are single women without children! It's written in some report, based on studies, and published by a major publication. Interesting, eh?

I get both! I'm in a relationship but will not marry. And I'm not having children so I get the Qs about my lack of a husband and lack of babies. Yes, many in Society believe that a woman's purpose in life is to be a wife and mother. So those of us who follow our own path are often deemed "deficient" or "confused" or "not real women" or "selfish." It's disheartening. That's why I started the thread. The more open we are with our individual truths, the more likely that people will start to see that there's > 1 way to live as a woman. Honestly, the toughest critics of unmarried women/women who choose not to have children are married women with children. Not all of them obviously but many. One single woman in her 60s has done a lot of research on it. She said that female Singletons often seem to trigger anxiety or resentment among married people just by existing. She even found cases of outright cruelty or aggression toward single women.

The study your mother mentioned is legit. I've heard of that one. Very interesting indeed.

Ted Talk: What no one ever told you about people who are single

[Have Hope]

Originally Posted by SilverTrees

I get both! I'm in a relationship but will not marry. And I'm not having children so I get the Qs about my lack of a husband and lack of babies. Yes, many in Society believe that a woman's purpose in life is to be a wife and mother. So those of us who follow our own path are often deemed "deficient" or "confused" or "not real women" or "selfish." It's disheartening. That's why I started the thread. The more open we are with our individual truths, the more likely that people will start to see that there's > 1 way to live as a woman. Honestly, the toughest critics of unmarried women/women who choose not to have children are married women with children. Not all of them obviously but many. One single woman in her 60s has done a lot of research on it. She said that female Singletons often seem to trigger anxiety or resentment among married people just by existing. She even found cases of outright cruelty or aggression toward single women.

The study your mother mentioned is legit. I've heard of that one. Very interesting indeed.

Yes, I hear you!

I’ve learned over the years to ignore what other ppl say and think especially when it’s negative input about my own choices or life. It’s YOUR life. And that means choosing things that make you happiest.

Unfortunately the unhappiest ppl often are the most judgemental. So let them stew in their own juices! Lol.

Originally Posted by Have Hope

Yes, I hear you!

I’ve learned over the years to ignore what other ppl say and think especially when it’s negative input about my own choices or life. It’s YOUR life. And that means choosing things that make you happiest.

Unfortunately the unhappiest ppl often are the most judgemental.

Your points are very well made HaveHope. Thank you for contributing.

There's someone on PC with a great signature line. Sorry I don't remember who. Something like:
"Selfishness does not mean living your life as you want to; selfishness is expecting other people to live their lives as you want them to."



And I agree, there's a strong link between misery and judgment. I recently read some really interesting research on how intense loneliness can actually lead people to be more negative and less accepting of others even though they truly wish to have new friends in their life. Though of course I'm not saying that all lonely folks are negative! But that particular trend in the research was interesting because it described one of my siblings very well. The more I tried to help him, the more hurtful he was toward me. So now I peacefully leave him be. Sad though because I know he wants closeness in his life but he's so bitter and rude to people that they don't want to be around him. Sidebar! Oops!

[downandlonely]

I'm not planning to get married or have children. A cat is enough responsibility for me.

It bugs me when people say I will change my mind when I'm older. I'm 36. I don't have a lot of childbearing years yet. Changing my mind when I'm too old to have children would not be a good thing. To be fair, I look younger than I am, so some people think I am still in my 20s.

Originally Posted by downandlonely

I'm not planning to get married or have children. A cat is enough responsibility for me.

It bugs me when people say I will change my mind when I'm older. I'm 36. I don't have a lot of childbearing years yet. Changing my mind when I'm too old to have children would not be a good thing. To be fair, I look younger than I am, so some people think I am still in my 20s.

Thank you for sharing DownandLonely. I understand. There are two issues you're dealing with there. One is a boundary problem. Unless you are running around asking people what they think about your lack of babies (you're obviously not) then they do not have a right to weigh in on it. Second, the reason they are telling you that you'll change your mind is not because of how young you look, it's because you are female. Some people believe that females must get pregnant. They cannot imagine a woman who doesn't want that so they tell you you will change your mind. Just as they are still making up stories about 50 yr old Jennifer Aniston "desperately wanting children."

To suggest that you will change your mind is both rude and condescending. It's basically like saying: "You don't know your own mind." People do not make comments like that to 36 yr old childless men. Or if they do, it's not often. Men are perceived as more than fathers and husbands....many aspects to their identity. We need to help the world see that women also have many aspects to their identity....so if motherhood and marriage are absent...this is not a problem or a failing...it's just different. No big deal.

Here's one of my favorites:

"But you're so lovely and kind! How could you not be a mother?!"

So, only women who procreate are lovely and kind?

D&L, you might find the Ted Talk I posted above interesting. Presented by a very strong and intelligent single woman. She has been single her whole adult life.

[downandlonely]

I got told that I was lovely and outgoing so I should be able to find someone (a boyfriend). Truth is I could find someone if I wanted to. But I don't want to. I like my independence.

Originally Posted by downandlonely

I got told that I was lovely and outgoing so I should be able to find someone (a boyfriend). Truth is I could find someone if I wanted to. But I don't want to. I like my independence.

Fair play to you!

Thank you to everyone for your thoughtful contributions and truths. I find this very helpful and supportive. I respect all men and women, married or not, parents or not.

[guilloche]

Nice! Thanks for posting the quotes!

And yup. I'm single, and in my mid-40s now, and for lots of reasons never felt like I *wanted* kids. I think it's only been recently, as I've gotten older and had the chance to see some people (much saner people than my parents) who really enjoy parenting and have great kids and a happy family, that I've started to slightly understand why anyone would want that.

Honestly, I grew up feeling like *I* was a burden, and kids in general were a pain-in-the-butt. On top of that, my brother had a ton of problems and was scary/violent growing up. I remember being in college, feeling like I had finally "escaped", and wondering why on earth I'd want to risk having kids, if that's how bad it can be.

My only weirdness... I've got a friend who used to be my manager. Fantastic guy, great dad to his kids, was a wonderful manager and I really enjoy talking to him. We were talking about this at one point, and I mentioned that I didn't want kids... in part because I felt like there was a lot that I wanted to do for myself, and I didn't think I had it in me to make the sacrifices necessary to put kids first.

He told me that was incredibly selfish.

Well, yeah. I guess by definition it IS. But, at the same time, it seems better to recognize that you're not cut out for the level of sacrifice necessary to be a great parent, and to not have kids at all... rather than to try anyway and be miserable (and possibly end up hurting the kids too, in the process).

*shrug*. It stung in the moment, but I also realize there's so much about my life that he doesn't understand, that his view isn't really reflective of my reality.

Heck, I haven't dated in... like 20 years? Since college... so even if I *wanted* to start a family, it's not like there's anyone around to help. And since I can barely handle taking care of myself some days, I definitely don't feel well-suited to taking care of kids on my own!

Maybe part of the problem is that we can't really openly talk about mental health in our society. And that plays a big role here, at least for me. If I hadn't grown up in a neglectful crazy family with a brother that regularly tried to kill me, if I hadn't had other traumas, if I had come from a loving and supportive family... maybe I'd be better at relationships, dating, and maybe the idea of having kids would just make sense to me.

I realize that's not the case for everyone, but for me, I just don't know. It's like there were so many things kind of stacked against me going down that path... it just never really was an actual option for me, in a way.

But other than that one friend, I don't tend to talk about it with people.

Oh! But I did go through a phase where my mom was *crazy* about wanting grandkids. O...M...G.... it drove me crazy. Not just asking about *me* having them (to which I'd reply, "with who? Who do you think is going to be the baby daddy in this situation mom, given that I'm not dating?!" - to her asking about my sister and her boyfriend, and if I thought they'd have kids.

At one point my grandfather actually brought up how sad my mom was that she didn't have any grandkids.

*Sigh*.

[downandlonely]

I think my Dad would like grandkids, but he knows he would have to get them from my youngest brother. I wouldn't mind being an aunt. I just know I couldn't handle a child full-time.

Originally Posted by guilloche

Nice! Thanks for posting the quotes!

We were talking about this at one point, and I mentioned that I didn't want kids... in part because I felt like there was a lot that I wanted to do for myself, and I didn't think I had it in me to make the sacrifices necessary to put kids first.

He told me that was incredibly selfish.

You are not selfish. As long as you love and care for others, and not solely for yourself, you are not selfish. I knew a single person who dedicated her life to care for the youths in her community. It's ridiculous that people call you selfish just because you don't want to have kids. You care about your family and friends, and you are willing to contribute to supporting other women here on PC with your perspectives. You are not selfish at all. You are cool !

Originally Posted by guilloche

Nice! Thanks for posting the quotes!

And yup. I'm single, and in my mid-40s now, and for lots of reasons never felt like I *wanted* kids. I think it's only been recently, as I've gotten older and had the chance to see some people (much saner people than my parents) who really enjoy parenting and have great kids and a happy family, that I've started to slightly understand why anyone would want that.

Honestly, I grew up feeling like *I* was a burden, and kids in general were a pain-in-the-butt. On top of that, my brother had a ton of problems and was scary/violent growing up. I remember being in college, feeling like I had finally "escaped", and wondering why on earth I'd want to risk having kids, if that's how bad it can be.

My only weirdness... I've got a friend who used to be my manager. Fantastic guy, great dad to his kids, was a wonderful manager and I really enjoy talking to him. We were talking about this at one point, and I mentioned that I didn't want kids... in part because I felt like there was a lot that I wanted to do for myself, and I didn't think I had it in me to make the sacrifices necessary to put kids first.

He told me that was incredibly selfish.

Well, yeah. I guess by definition it IS. But, at the same time, it seems better to recognize that you're not cut out for the level of sacrifice necessary to be a great parent, and to not have kids at all... rather than to try anyway and be miserable (and possibly end up hurting the kids too, in the process).

*shrug*. It stung in the moment, but I also realize there's so much about my life that he doesn't understand, that his view isn't really reflective of my reality.

Heck, I haven't dated in... like 20 years? Since college... so even if I *wanted* to start a family, it's not like there's anyone around to help. And since I can barely handle taking care of myself some days, I definitely don't feel well-suited to taking care of kids on my own!

Maybe part of the problem is that we can't really openly talk about mental health in our society. And that plays a big role here, at least for me. If I hadn't grown up in a neglectful crazy family with a brother that regularly tried to kill me, if I hadn't had other traumas, if I had come from a loving and supportive family... maybe I'd be better at relationships, dating, and maybe the idea of having kids would just make sense to me.

I realize that's not the case for everyone, but for me, I just don't know. It's like there were so many things kind of stacked against me going down that path... it just never really was an actual option for me, in a way.

But other than that one friend, I don't tend to talk about it with people.

Oh! But I did go through a phase where my mom was *crazy* about wanting grandkids. O...M...G.... it drove me crazy. Not just asking about *me* having them (to which I'd reply, "with who? Who do you think is going to be the baby daddy in this situation mom, given that I'm not dating?!" - to her asking about my sister and her boyfriend, and if I thought they'd have kids.

At one point my grandfather actually brought up how sad my mom was that she didn't have any grandkids.

*Sigh*.

Hello Guilloche,

thank you very much for sharing your truth here. I am so sorry that you had a painful childhood...the behaviors of your brother sounded very frightening. You deserved a safe, peaceful, and loving childhood. I am sorry that was not your reality.

It makes sense to me that after a very difficult and unstable upbringing, you would not be drawn to the idea of having children. I do not think you are alone in that. Though, as you astutely noted, these conversations are often not easy to have in society therefore many people could be silently agreeing with you.

Your friend/manager's comment that you are "incredibly selfish" for choosing to not have children was WAY over the line. Here's a thought for you - is it possible that he was not actually responding to your life choice/beliefs at all but his own....sounds to me like you unwittingly hit a nerve with him and he reacted to what was triggered within him. We of course cannot know what is in that man's mind or soul but it's worth thinking about. In general, when a person oversteps or says something cruel, it's typically not about the receiver...it is indicative of something going on with the giver of the comment. If you see what I mean.

Here are my thoughts on the "people who don't have children are selfish" idea in society. (Btw, my father used to say that on a regular basis and he was an abusive parent...interesting, right?)
When a woman decides not to have children (for whatever reason) that is NOT an act of selfishness. It is the decision of an emotionally intelligent, wise, and LOVING person. Yes! I said loving! To bring another life into this world, one that a person is not able (for any reason) to adequately care for, support, and love is not a healthy or selfless thing to do. It will inherently cause suffering to the child who is not wanted. There are so many parents in this world abusing and neglecting their children. Are those parents selfish? Yet strong and loving women who do not want a baby and wisely choose to not have one are deemed selfish??! That’s completely backwards!

There’s actually a yogi who, believe it or not, says that modern women who choose not to procreate should be given an award! He believes that with the current birth rate, the world will not be able to sustain the human population in 50 years. He thinks fewer people should be having children. And yet, there’s still this intense and bizarre bias in society that people MUST have babies. All people! That’s an extreme notion. Extremes are usually illogical and unhelpful. We don’t have to accept them.

Oscar Wilde had something very helpful to say:
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live. And unselfishness is letting other people's lives alone, not interfering with them. Selfishness always aims at creating around it an absolute uniformity of type. Unselfishness recognizes infinite variety of type as a delightful thing, accepts it, acquiesces in it, enjoys it. It is not selfish to think for oneself. A man who does not think for himself does not think at all. It is grossly selfish to require of one's neighbor that he should think in the same way, and hold the same opinions. Why should he? If he can think, he will probably think differently. If he cannot think, it is monstrous to require thought of any kind from him. A red rose is not selfish because it wants to be a red rose. It would be horribly selfish if it wanted all the other flowers in the garden to be both red and roses.”

With regard to your mother and grandfather....there are no wrong feelings. If they feel sad about a lack of grandchildren, then that is how they feel. However, what is NOT okay is to place that sadness upon you, so to speak. They need to deal with that sadness themselves and leave you out of it. Because your decision whether or not to procreate is your decision and nobody else's business.

Remember Guilloche, you aren't selfish for not being a red rose. If you are a different colored rose, or a different flower entirely, you remain a beautiful and valuable flower in the garden. Your petals and stem and color are no less than any of the other flowers. I for one am glad to share the garden with you and all of the other thoughtful and loving women who joined this thread...whether they have babies or not!

[guilloche]

Originally Posted by ennie

You are not selfish. As long as you love and care for others, and not solely for yourself, you are not selfish. I knew a single person who dedicated her life to care for the youths in her community. It's ridiculous that people call you selfish just because you don't want to have kids. You care about your family and friends, and you are willing to contribute to supporting other women here on PC with your perspectives. You are not selfish at all. You are cool !

Awww... thanks Ennie, I appreciate that!

I think there are different types of "selfish", actually.

Right now, I'm focused on myself, and that's kind of "selfish" in a very logical way, but I think it's not a bad thing. I'm trying to take care of myself, figure out what I need to function and be happy, how to literally make my life better. I think that's healthy, but I absolutely see how it could seem "selfish".

As opposed to... be willing to hurt or cheat other people to get things that you want/need, or for your own amusement. That's "bad selfish" (in my mind).

So, I'm totally OK with being the first type, and I don't think I'm the second type, so really, I don't worry too much about it

In the moment though, his comment sort of stopped me in my tracks. I hadn't realize that people actually think that it's "selfish" to *not* have kids. We have plenty of people, we're not hurting for people, and the world kind of sucks... why bring more people in to it, especially if I'm not sure I can take do a good job parenting them, because of my own issues.

But it's OK. I'm sure he has his own issues around it too. We're still friends, though sadly he's moved out of state, so we don't get to chat as much. Life goes on...

Thanks!