[madisgram]

When Family Members Protect Alcoholics and some solutions.
In families with alcoholism, emotions and priorities can get very mixed up -- and not just by the alcoholic. Spouses, kids, parents, and extended family members can also get emotionally entangled with ...

[lynn P.]

Thanks madisgram - very helpful article and I could see myself and family members in this article. My brother was a lifelong alcoholic and it ended up being the weapon he used to end his life. Sorry if this is depressing sounding.

[Perna]

One thing I didn't see in there was "pride" and denying the problem. It has to be hard to be a parent with an alcoholic child and thinking it could be your "fault" or that your child might be flawed in some way, etc. My brother was an alcoholic and I remember my father exclaiming to my stepmother after something she said, "So-and-so is not stupid!" and my instant rejoinder, "Then why does he act that way?!" We weren't enabling him but were visiting him in a care facility and he did do well and hasn't had a drink in 30+ years, etc. but it does make me wonder at the possibility of blind, "he doesn't really have a problem" like the alcoholic himself might have just because it doesn't fit with the non-alcoholic friend's/family member's view of themselves and who they know/hang with! I think part of practicing "tough love" can also sometimes be the necessity of re-evaluating one's self.

[Open Eyes]

No Perna, I don't think parents take "pride" in denying the problem.
They don't understand it but many of these people who are alcoholics are very smart. The problem is that I believe it really is a genetic thing, and I raised a child that has whatever the gene is, I know it is there, I have done a lot of thinking about it.

What I have come to know by alot of observations is that whatever this disease is, they are born with it. I know that whatever it is, when they have it they have to take anything they do and take it all the way. I call it the umpth degree. If they get sober and use AA, it works as long as they take it to the umpth degree. If they have a career and many of them work for themselves, or it can be a preferance, they need to do it to the umpth degree. For example, as I knew that my daughter had the possiblility of having whatever it is that is this disorder that leads to the disease of alcholism, I directed her to find something she could do other than alcohol. In her case it became horses and she does that to the umpth degree and that is what she does other than choosing alcohol.

I am really trying to think about it alot as I do have a lot of them around me. I have noticed a lot about them. This disorder can be used in a very positive way, as my sister has it and she is doing something to the umpth degree now, and now she is on TV.

I know that not all alcoholics succeed with AA, but if there was a way to tap into that umpth degree for everyone of them that do try and fail, more would succeed. It is something very fragile about them that they don't even know. When I sit and really think about my daughter all the time I raised her, I can remember how it had to be with her. I was really lucky that when I went to an al-anon meeting to try to get help with my husband I sat with mostly parents that were trying to deal with a teen that had the issue.

I never forgot that and I did everything possible to get my daughter involved with something that would give her a natural high. Well, it worked but now I realize that the reason it worked is that it was also something that she could take to the umpth degree. When it got shattered, that is when she turned to alcohol. As soon as she found her way back to another horse and another direction or path to the umpth degree in that she was able to stop the alcohol.

Elana, this is what you are seeing in your mother, she only knows that she has to somehow do this to the umpth degree. If there was anyway you could get her out of this scenario, even by force, which should be considered someday, she could get better. Whatever this disorder is that is what has to take place for them to get into a better life. Because if they don't they will lie, cheat, steal, hurt anyone in their way to get to that umpth degree. If they get sober and follow the steps and go to meetings they must take it to the umpth degree, they will be a happy person if they stay with it and they know that it is the only way.

I think that this has been with human primates since the very beginning.
I think that it has something to do with survival and that is why it is in every family. Perhaps that umpth degree is that primate that was the strongest and some leader or top primate and ofcourse that would carry thru the genetic process.

I would like to see scientists study this by observing these primates.
Ofcourse I don't think that anyone has made this connection but I do, I see it. We have always had a problem with it, it is in all of man thruout history. Especially if we look at the primates that suddenly use tools for getting food. If you notice they will keep working at it until they reach the umpth degree and it can be one way a primate that is considered low on the totem pole can suddenly become top monkey or have a higher rank so to speak.

Ok, I threw out a big secret here, I have dated and timed it. I want it to be considered. I would like everyone who is around an alcholoic or is one to think about what I just said. I can get pretty deep and I like to dig way down. I see a plant with a a leafy top and there is something about it that is different. Well, this is what I do, I don't just sit there and look at that plant, I like to dig down to the root and see that one extention to that root system that makes it possible for that green top.

I think that we better get out all those old videos of the study of primates and take a closer look. We missed something, its there. HELLO? Oh no, it's me Im nuts, oh yeah. LOL

Open Eyes

[Open Eyes]

I was just thinking some more. Uh OH, lol,

If I can see it and I can pinpoint every time it showed up in my daughter, how come someone else can't see it? I knew what I was seeing when my daughter's horse died in her lap, how she lost her umpth degree that day. How I had to work my butt off to get it back for her. I knew what I was seeing when she took pride in out drinking others at some party I had in my back yard where, by the way no liquor was provided or allowed. But I saw it.

I fought really hard for my child, I knew every time that umpth degree was in jeopardy that I had to work really hard at putting it back there. I saw it in my husband and I see it now. I lived it yesterday and this weekend.
I can see how my husband has to have that kitchen counter cleaned to his umph degree and how he has to direct me while I am driving to the upmth degree. Now I have to try to get him to change that to some umpth degree. It is not going to be easy, yesterday, I saw so much of it. It is not about shutting them off, I can see that now, it is going to have to be how to redirect it to a different place.

I also now know what happened when I put my foot down. It is not going to be that easy. And they are going to fight it to the umpth degree unless I can help them redirect it. It is very fragile, I can see that now. If only I could show it to you, you would see what I am saying.
I talked to my mom who is 85 and fought it all her life, she got it, she sees it, and she tells me wow, yeah, I see it.

Think about what I am saying here, really think about it tell me what you see. You have to be honest here. I also have to be very honest about another opinion I have now. I don't think that any person who is obviously killing themselves with alcoholism should be allowed to do so, just as we try to intercept a person who is seriously contemplating suicide. I can only hope that someday we will know enough to see the potential before it happens. Some of these people have self esteem issues but, they can really be productive and live happy lives. Some of them are remarkabley intelligent and just need to be given the right direction. No, I didn't know what I was seeing in my child, but I did try to intercept it when I did see it. I can see it now that I know what it is, I can remember that 1 year old, yes 1 year old, that could say the whole alphabet to the umph degree. It was there all along, all the signs.

Open Eyes

[madisgram]

yes, open eyes, that's why interventions can help. if one occurs a professional that knows how to do this is neccesary. otherwise it usually isn't effective. active alcoholics are so cunning to weedle a way out otherwise.
education about alcoholism is the key. at schools and at home. had i understood alcoholism i wouldn't have married a functional drunk. i didn't know what to look for. i wouldn't have become myself an alcoholic. the worse experience i had was i told my gp the only thing i could tell him was i was drinking and i'd never drunk before. tragically he prescribed a benzo which resulted in my downward spiral even more quickly. i was not educated about any of this and then my gp compounded the prob. and he dismissed my concern.
when i got sober i educated my son. he was 16 at the time. i also told him he could have the predisposition to alcoholism. he learned to be cautious about drinking. he still is. his wife is an ACOA too. she was educated about alcoholism too. both are success stories about not activating the disease. now i've educated my young grandchildren and their parents have too. i'm hoping we will break the chain of self destruction by being proactive. i believe we will.

[Perna]

If one is drinking and it is a problem, one needs to stop drinking; it's not a whole lot different from smoking cigarettes; yes they can cause cancer and other problems but they don't always; not everyone who smokes gets COPD, cancer, or other bad things happening.

It's not easy to decide you have a problem and work on it/stop drinking. But no one can do it for you and it's no one else's "fault" that you drink too much. As my stepmother was too fond of pointing out; no one holds a gun to your head and forces you to go to the liquor store and buy liquor. Whether it is genetic or something else or, as I think, a combination of many things (I don't know any major difficulty in our lives that has a single, simple "cause" or easy solution (yes, "don't drink" is the solution to alcoholism but that's not an easy solution which means the cause of drinking is not a simple cause; even if they could take out the genetic component to alcoholism, the person would probably turn to something else)) I think one's whole life/lifestyle has to be looked at by the person with the problem and addressed by them. I think most people in the intervention shows on TV, etc. relapse because the whole thing is not their doing. They may come to "agree" that "something" needs to be done but they still are not willing to take the responsibility to do it, for themselves, not the other people.

However, the original article was about why/how the family "protects" the alcoholic. As it points out, I believe too that it's an individual thing, why "I" protect a spouse/sibling/parent will be different from why another would but there's only so many "reasons"/things one can gain in one's own life by not rocking the boat or not wanting to be without that person/thinking they will leave/get angry, etc. I imagine the article was written to help those around alcoholics better see and get their own lives in order and take responsibility for themselves instead of deciding the "other" person has a problem and trying to take responsibility for them, instead of looking at self. We only have control over our own lives and actions and I think that is especially hard to learn when there is someone close to us whose life seems especially out of control.

[Open Eyes]

Yes, your both right, yes Perna, I hear you. But what I am saying is that it isn't that easy. Yes madisgram, your right, you are doing a good job at preparing other family members for what could happen if they don't learn how it could happen and that they may end up on the wrong road.

And Perna, well, yes, it is another persons problem but it does effect us and many times because we don't understand it we somehow let it happen or even find an excuse for it. And yes, there are many different situations where this can happen.

The very fact that I have pointed it out in different areas in my life, is proof that, yes, it can happen in different people and one can find themselves ending up with a lot of them around them.

I am doing everything I can to not be a co-dependant which often happens with family members. Even the fact that you can make a choice to ignore it, can in some way be a form of co-dependancy. I don't care how many different ways you spin the bottle, it is still a bottle.

I have just tried to realize yeah, it is a bottle and there are a lot of bottles and there are different charectoristics that show, yes, it is in fact a bottle.

I am just trying to point out that no matter how much we spin it, well,
it is what it is. And, for me, well, there is nothing about it that is easy.

Open Eyes

[madisgram]

Originally Posted by Perna

If one is drinking and it is a problem, one needs to stop drinking; it's not a whole lot different from smoking cigarettes; yes they can cause cancer and other problems but they don't always; not everyone who smokes gets COPD, cancer, or other bad things happening.

It's not easy to decide you have a problem and work on it/stop drinking. But no one can do it for you and it's no one else's "fault" that you drink too much. As my stepmother was too fond of pointing out; no one holds a gun to your head and forces you to go to the liquor store and buy liquor. Whether it is genetic or something else or, as I think, a combination of many things (I don't know any major difficulty in our lives that has a single, simple "cause" or easy solution (yes, "don't drink" is the solution to alcoholism but that's not an easy solution which means the cause of drinking is not a simple cause; even if they could take out the genetic component to alcoholism, the person would probably turn to something else)) I think one's whole life/lifestyle has to be looked at by the person with the problem and addressed by them. I think most people in the intervention shows on TV, etc. relapse because the whole thing is not their doing. They may come to "agree" that "something" needs to be done but they still are not willing to take the responsibility to do it, for themselves, not the other people.

However, the original article was about why/how the family "protects" the alcoholic. As it points out, I believe too that it's an individual thing, why "I" protect a spouse/sibling/parent will be different from why another would but there's only so many "reasons"/things one can gain in one's own life by not rocking the boat or not wanting to be without that person/thinking they will leave/get angry, etc. I imagine the article was written to help those around alcoholics better see and get their own lives in order and take responsibility for themselves instead of deciding the "other" person has a problem and trying to take responsibility for them, instead of looking at self. We only have control over our own lives and actions and I think that is especially hard to learn when there is someone close to us whose life seems especially out of control.

well said perna and some good points. the individual living around an alcoholic needs to keep the focus on their own self. that was why al-anon was created. absolutely nothing can stop the alcoholic from drinking except them. they must come to the conclusion before any corrective action takes place. alcoholics take hostages, not have healthy relationships. often the family will take on the persona of the alcoholic's behaviors...denial being one. that is especially important why the family member needs help for themselves.
as for interventions-sometimes it will plant a seed with the alcoholic where everyone acknowledges the pink elephant in the room. betty ford was a good example of intervention. if nothing else it may eventually cause a spark of reality and they get help.