[chelseamonster11]

I've done a lot of research, and I don't think there's much denying that I have psychopathic traits. I've done the Hare Psychopathy Checklist multiple times and consistently score a 34 out of 40, and anything over 30 is supposed to mean you may be a psychopath. I haven't been officially diagnosed because I tend to be dishonest with my therapists... I've been to a lot of therapists and psychiatrists for other reasons and they've never put it together. And I honestly don't like the idea of telling them what I think I am. I have no idea why I lie so compulsively to people who are trying to help me, but I can't seem to stop. Sometimes its almost like a game for me, if I can trick them into thinking I'm normal, then I win.
But the really strange thing is that I am also depressed a lot of the time.
I have been diagnosed by 2 different psychiatrists with severe depression. Half the time I have symptoms of depression and the other half I act like a psychopath. My psychopathic tendencies are making it very difficult to deal with my depression because I always do something that pushes people away. I don't know how to communicate honestly with anyone, the only way I get things out of my head is by writing. Which is why I'm doing this. I've never been this honest in my life. Its very strange.

[SoupDragon]

I have done every screening test I can get my hands on and seem to have every diagnosis going (Have never been formally diagnosed) - I hassled my T for a diagnosis, but my T said we are all a little bit of this or that at different times and what is important is the symptoms or difficulties we experience. So I have settled for a diagnosis of being me with a little bit of this or that at different times.

I think your post is interesting and I am wondering why you feel you cannot be honest with therapists and why you feel you have won if you trick them into thinking you are "normal" (whatever normal means). Also I wonder what psychopathic tendencies you think you have (I am aware of the Hare and the fact that in order to score someone, background information in addition to the test needs to be established).

But most of all from reading your post, I wanted to say well done for being so honest, I am guessing that is hard if you are used to pretending to be something else. I really hope you may be able to share some more honest stuff on here and that you may fidn it helpful.

[chelseamonster11]

Originally Posted by SoupDragon

I have done every screening test I can get my hands on and seem to have every diagnosis going (Have never been formally diagnosed) - I hassled my T for a diagnosis, but my T said we are all a little bit of this or that at different times and what is important is the symptoms or difficulties we experience. So I have settled for a diagnosis of being me with a little bit of this or that at different times.

I think your post is interesting and I am wondering why you feel you cannot be honest with therapists and why you feel you have won if you trick them into thinking you are "normal" (whatever normal means). Also I wonder what psychopathic tendencies you think you have (I am aware of the Hare and the fact that in order to score someone, background information in addition to the test needs to be established).

But most of all from reading your post, I wanted to say well done for being so honest, I am guessing that is hard if you are used to pretending to be something else. I really hope you may be able to share some more honest stuff on here and that you may fidn it helpful.

Its very hard... I'm trying to get control of myself because there is now one person in my life who I care about and he needs me to fix myself... I don't know why I lie and manipulate people the way I do, I just always have and I can't seem to stop.
This is a list of the traits that are on the Hare Checklist, I have all except for 17 and 19, some of them more so than others, but they're all there.

1. GLIB and SUPERFICIAL CHARM -- the tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Psychopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A psychopath never gets tongue-tied. They have freed themselves from the social conventions about taking turns in talking, for example.

2. GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH -- a grossly inflated view of one's abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Psychopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings.

3. NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM -- an excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Psychopaths often have a low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine.

4. PATHOLOGICAL LYING -- can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative, and dishonest.

5. CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS- the use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one's victims.

6. LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT -- a lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, coldhearted, and unempathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one's victims.

7. SHALLOW AFFECT -- emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness.

8. CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY -- a lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.

9. PARASITIC LIFESTYLE -- an intentional, manipulative, selfish, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline, and inability to begin or complete responsibilities.

10. POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS -- expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily.

11. PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR -- a variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests.

12. EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS -- a variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use, and running away from home.

13. LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS -- an inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.

14. IMPULSIVITY -- the occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations, and urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic, and reckless.

15. IRRESPONSIBILITY -- repeated failure to fulfill or honor obligations and commitments; such as not paying bills, defaulting on loans, performing sloppy work, being absent or late to work, failing to honor contractual agreements.

16. FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS -- a failure to accept responsibility for one's actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial of responsibility, and an effort to manipulate others through this denial.

17. MANY SHORT-TERM MARITAL RELATIONSHIPS -- a lack of commitment to a long-term relationship reflected in inconsistent, undependable, and unreliable commitments in life, including marital.

18. JUVENILE DELINQUENCY -- behavior problems between the ages of 13-18; mostly behaviors that are crimes or clearly involve aspects of antagonism, exploitation, aggression, manipulation, or a callous, ruthless tough-mindedness.

19. REVOCATION OF CONDITION RELEASE -- a revocation of probation or other conditional release due to technical violations, such as carelessness, low deliberation, or failing to appear.

20. CRIMINAL VERSATILITY -- a diversity of types of criminal offenses, regardless if the person has been arrested or convicted for them; taking great pride at getting away with crimes.

Originally Posted by chelseamonster11

I've done a lot of research, and I don't think there's much denying that I have psychopathic traits. I've done the Hare Psychopathy Checklist multiple times and consistently score a 34 out of 40, and anything over 30 is supposed to mean you may be a psychopath. I haven't been officially diagnosed because I tend to be dishonest with my therapists...

I'm going to happily assume a quiz-a-thon website administered this test or you did, having somehow gotten your hands on the PCL-R test booklet and manual (if the latter is the case, be a dear and send ol' Mick a copy ). As such, any score which may have been rendered is moot.

Sometimes its almost like a game for me, if I can trick them into thinking I'm normal, then I win.

Then change the game. The ideal result is to figure out who you are, your strengths, and your weaknesses. Use them, the shrinks, to further this purpose.

I have been diagnosed by 2 different psychiatrists with severe depression. Half the time I have symptoms of depression and the other half I act like a psychopath. My psychopathic tendencies are making it very difficult to deal with my depression because I always do something that pushes people away. I don't know how to communicate honestly with anyone, the only way I get things out of my head is by writing. Which is why I'm doing this. I've never been this honest in my life. Its very strange.

So are you a psychopath who has become depressed, or has your depression led you to psychopathic behaviour? Chicken or egg? I imagine only therapy has this answer. Mind you, the order is important for treatment purposes and so forth.

As for the PCL-R criteria... I like my descriptions better: http://forums.psychcentral.com/showthread.php?t=164637

[chelseamonster11]

I had to do a lot of research to get that test, it wasn't easy to find. Whether its accurate or not I have no idea, but it is the actual Hare Checklist.

http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv...Checklist.html

And the depression resulted from the psychopathic behavior, being my lack of ability to interact reasonably with the only person I care about.

Originally Posted by chelseamonster11

I had to do a lot of research to get that test, it wasn't easy to find. Whether its accurate or not I have no idea, but it is the actual Hare Checklist.

http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv...Checklist.html

And the depression resulted from the psychopathic behavior, being my lack of ability to interact reasonably with the only person I care about.

That is the actual check list. But the test itself involves a 90 minute interview of 60 some questions. The answers given by the subject, an extensive background check, and interviews with family members are used to determine which of the characteristics on the check list are present in the subject and which are not.

[protector1973]

thought thing about sociapaths is they dont have a problem, there a problem for everyone else, tyranny of weak

Originally Posted by protector1973

thought thing about sociapaths is they dont have a problem, there a problem for everyone else, tyranny of weak

An unfair generalization which I resent, sir.

[protector1973]

do not join the game

intrigue is a sociapaths tool, resist the temptation to compete with a seductive sociapath, to outsmart him, psychoanalyze , or even banter with him. in addition to reducing yourself to his level, you would be distracting yourself from what is really important, which is to protect yourself. martha stoute the sociapath next door

Originally Posted by protector1973

do not join the game

intrigue is a sociapaths tool, resist the temptation to compete with a seductive sociapath, to outsmart him, psychoanalyze , or even banter with him. in addition to reducing yourself to his level, you would be distracting yourself from what is really important, which is to protect yourself. martha stoute the sociapath next door

I am a psychopath. And Stout is a moron.

[objtrbit]

Originally Posted by protector1973

do not join the game

intrigue is a sociapaths tool, resist the temptation to compete with a seductive sociapath, to outsmart him, psychoanalyze , or even banter with him. in addition to reducing yourself to his level, you would be distracting yourself from what is really important, which is to protect yourself. martha stoute the sociapath next door

I think this right here is a good example of why antisocials are not getting the research into the help they need...media and people who do not understand or try to understand the dysfuntion of the disorder-what it was/is like to have the disorder, ect-are simply saying society needs to be rid of them, or they are useless to society...jeez, blah blah blah; if your motive is to compete with the antisocial...I would ask you to take a look at yourself, why you wish to compete with one, sounds like an unresolved issue.

Arrrgg I hate how I am addressing you on this;

ok, not everyone may be able to tolerate these individuals....I can't stand anything to do with politics, and thats why I am thankful for people who care and are involved in all of that so I don't have to be but maybe I could ask you a few questions so you can see why I'm coming from this perspective....

1. Assuming the pathology is due to abuse, then let me ask you this:

How can we expect someone who has never been shown true care/love by the two sole people that are responsible for the child (parents) to know how to give a **** about care/being cared for? I feel that an antisocial who has become this way due to abuse has had to become for oneself everything that he/she ever needs, because as a young child they were shown that people suck? If you were in a constant state of abuse I'm fairly certain you would withdraw from the world in one form or another as well; And also, I think they do give a **** about caring, because it impacts what and how they can and cannot express things because other people care. lol

2. So they have apathy...I feel you already "lower to their level" by returning that apathy. (Not that I condone that statement at all because it disregards what they have been through and in saying that you suggest you've been through the same?) Is it safe to say one cannot fight apathy with apathy? o0;

3. Assuming the disorder is biological....why not research into what's causing it, find a cure? The more you talk with them, the more neuropsychologists may be able to figure out where things are going wrong...who knows;

In conclusion, I think intrigue is perfect to better our and their understanding of what's going on; I think the reason I attacked this is that it started to cross into hopelessness due to the older generation that studied what it could, got as far as it did, then got exploited in variuos forms and given up on. I'm trying to get as many people as possible to question the "why" behind reasons therapy is not working instead of coming to the conclusion-like most textbooks, that therapy of any form is useless.

No giving up yo;
If you do not agree protector-I would hope that you continue to post so I can keep track of why/where this hopelessness is coming from;

Yo mick, I'm trying to create a new theory, or maybe even just a perspective, called "Apathy Theory' (or perspective, whatev) so I invite you to tear it apart or correct me..I'm only 21 I got years to refine stuff lol, I'm curious to see what you have to say about it; I feel weird speaking on behalf of you all seeing as I do not have this disorder;

Take care and thanks,
-obj

[protector1973]

are you a sociapath?

[objtrbit]

Originally Posted by protector1973

are you a sociapath?

Nope! Sorry I was editing when you posted lol

[protector1973]

you just dont get it, ive read enough on subject. im with experts on this one.

[objtrbit]

Originally Posted by protector1973

you just dont get it, ive read enough on subject. im with experts on this one.

This is the "old generation" I speak of....any of these "experts" that indicate hopelessness outside of general frustration.....come on man, play devils advocate! Write your own book!...

[protector1973]

you will come to same cocnclusions as experts in end. just not there yet. thers no point carrying on this discussion. take care,

[objtrbit]

Originally Posted by protector1973

you will come to same cocnclusions as experts in end. just not there yet. thers no point carrying on this discussion. take care,

Well....what made you come to the conclusion you did?

I hope you continue to post;

Take care,
-obj

[protector1973]

im in agreement with the experts. they never change.just evolve to hide themselves even better. maybe some mellow , but thats probably more to do with time then any effort on there part. more work should be done on highlighting that such people exist in this world, this would help to cut off there supply of victims.

Originally Posted by objtrbit

I think this right here is a good example of why antisocials are not getting the research into the help they need...media and people who do not understand or try to understand the dysfuntion of the disorder-what it was/is like to have the disorder, ect-are simply saying society needs to be rid of them, or they are useless to society...jeez, blah blah blah; if your motive is to compete with the antisocial...I would ask you to take a look at yourself, why you wish to compete with one, sounds like an unresolved issue.

Indeed. Much like schizophrenics of the 60's who were pained by the misinformation brought on by media and, instead of being treated like human beings and helped, lobotomised - because tearing someone's brain apart and making them controllable is easier than trying to understand them.

1. Assuming the pathology is due to abuse, then let me ask you this:

How can we expect someone who has never been shown true care/love by the two sole people that are responsible for the child (parents) to know how to give a **** about care/being cared for? I feel that an antisocial who has become this way due to abuse has had to become for oneself everything that he/she ever needs, because as a young child they were shown that people suck? If you were in a constant state of abuse I'm fairly certain you would withdraw from the world in one form or another as well; And also, I think they do give a **** about caring, because it impacts what and how they can and cannot express things because other people care. lol

Well put. As one member of this site so brilliantly stated (apologies, I've forgotten who said it), victims aren't always sympathetic. And an antisocial individual who has already learned from years of abuse in childhood that it's a cut-throat world, one can only trust oneself, emotions are weak, etc... is only going to have those beliefs reinforced by their peers who don't trust them, turn them over to Serpico, etc.

2. So they have apathy...I feel you already "lower to their level" by returning that apathy. (Not that I condone that statement at all because it disregards what they have been through and in saying that you suggest you've been through the same?) Is it safe to say one cannot fight apathy with apathy? o0;

Countertransference responses to antisocials can be pretty extreme. Apathy is the least of your worries. But, it is true that therapists must be careful how they react to the patient if they want to help said patient.

3. Assuming the disorder is biological....why not research into what's causing it, find a cure? The more you talk with them, the more neuropsychologists may be able to figure out where things are going wrong...who knows;

I would not like a cure. I'm happy with who I am.

In conclusion, I think intrigue is perfect to better our and their understanding of what's going on; I think the reason I attacked this is that it started to cross into hopelessness due to the older generation that studied what it could, got as far as it did, then got exploited in variuos forms and given up on. I'm trying to get as many people as possible to question the "why" behind reasons therapy is not working instead of coming to the conclusion-like most textbooks, that therapy of any form is useless.

There are proposed treatments for antisocials and even psychopaths. I read a book about a year ago by Doren called Understanding and Treating the Psychopath. It's more for professionals in the field. But it's interesting, nonetheless. You should have a look see.

Originally Posted by protector1973

you just dont get it, ive read enough on subject. im with experts on this one.

Mind you, Stout is no expert in the field of antisocials, sociopaths, or psychopaths. She is a fear-mongering arm-chair psychologist who used a plethora of psychobabble and the testaments of her clients (victims of antisocials) to write a ****ty and inaccurate book which does nothing to further understanding of the disorder on which it focuses, but propagate the prejudices of the disorder while she, dearest Stout, revels in her ill-deserved profits.

Am I being too harsh?

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

Originally Posted by objtrbit

I think this right here is a good example of why antisocials are not getting the research into the help they need...media and people who do not understand or try to understand the dysfuntion of the disorder-what it was/is like to have the disorder, ect-are simply saying society needs to be rid of them, or they are useless to society...jeez, blah blah blah from

Originally Posted by Michael the Great

Mind you, Stout is no expert in the field of antisocials, sociopaths, or psychopaths....does nothing to further understanding of the disorder on which it focuses, but propagate the prejudices of the disorder...

Am I being too harsh?

With the exception of a couple neuropsychologists working out here in California, I haven't seen much in the way of progressive thinking or action in the field for us poor deviants. The overwhelming attitude in the psychological community toward ASPD and psychopathy seems pretty damned unhelpful these days considering the progress being made in other areas, and it's packed with a bunch of people like Stout looking to cash in on the sensationalism and add fuel to the fire.

Back in May I decided to recapture a little taste of graduate school again, hopped on over to my alma mater, and enrolled in an Intro to Psych class for giggles. Listening to the professor's (a practicing clinical psychologist, mind you) tangential rants about sociopaths and psychopaths and how he was educating us on how to protect ourselves from being taken advantage of by these people was....ridiculous. And unprofessional.

He really caught my eye with all that fancy talk, and it's been decades since my last therapy, (if you could even call it that,) so I'm planning on hitting the guy up for some cognitive therapy. He won't have access to my history, so I think it'll be pretty rad. The shiny new start of a beautiful relationship.

Originally Posted by AlphaMikeFoxtrot

He really caught my eye with all that fancy talk, and it's been decades since my last therapy, (if you could even call it that,) so I'm planning on hitting the guy up for some cognitive therapy. He won't have access to my history, so I think it'll be pretty rad. The shiny new start of a beautiful relationship.

Now that I would pay to see.

My brain hurts from reading half of the dialogue that just occured right here, so I'm going to resist the urge to pick it apart or figure out who I want to demean or side with, haha. My concentration fails me.

However, Chelseamonster, I have a question for you. Have you ever considered Bipolar type I? I've not been officially diagnosed with ASPD, but the manic/hypomanic episodes ASSUREDLY (at least in my case) lead to just about all of the aforementioned "symptoms". And seeing as mania takes up most of my time, save for the few instances where I use my "games" to convince myself to give up on something or other which I suppose is depressing in contrast, it was very easy to assume myself with this diagnosis before going further down the rabbit hole into the sticky territory of mood disorders.

An interesting factor is that a lot of children with conduct disorders could also have had child-onset bipolar disorder. The model from the DSM is specifically for adults, but they have been doing a lot more research into better ways of diagnosing children properly as it is practically impossible with the guidelines they have as of today.

I'll spare myself having to form a coherent train of thought & just give you a link to a list of observed childhood symptoms. Though it isn't the MOST reliable site, it supports research I've done in the past via a psychology newsletter I stopped subscribing to due to spam emails I wasn't interested in.

http://bipolar.about.com/cs/kids_diag/a/red_flags4.htm

Hope it helps. When you've already decided on what certain parts of your personality could be explained by, it's a lot harder to explore the actual sea of possibilities. Even if you ARE diagnosed with anything, should you decide to "knock your **** off" so to speak & get down to your T's level, you must realize that you were still this person before your diagnosis & you would continue to be this person even if it didn't have a convenient definition. Abnormal psychology has helped many, but it has also unnecessarily complicated the life of people who are on their own journies to figuring themselves out by giving them a diagnostic scapegoat for their behaviours/actions.