[venusss]

I'd like to apologize to folks here. I can get bit obnoxious in defending my beliefs (suck for somebody who wants career in politics... or not?)

At the same time, I am not gonna step back from my hippiedom. It might not be all sciencey and measurable, but hey, it worked so far.

It's not even I doubted science... I just doubt it's purpose when it comes to human happiness, in making us content. Science did not really bring peace, within ourselves and outside. We can scan our brains, sure. And yet we are more and more unhappy in general. Lacking meaning in life (and sometimes we go as far as to pretend we don't need purpose...). And as a post-modernist, I see all truth and knowledge as relative, depending on what you looking for. I am a philosopher. And life cannot be measured, turned into tables and graphs. Or it can, but just because we can do it, doesn't mean we should.

I guess I just refuse to see myself as sick, broken brain... when I think the world is kinda broken too. I guess I am too sad and too angry at times, but please don't tell me it's all because I am broken, sick...

And I wish there were more philosophers in this world. Maybe that's what is wrong with it.

[faerie_moon_x]

It's true our society is broken. We all need to be sitting around in little tribes taking care of each other. Not everyone in seperate houses ignoring their neighbors. We all need to be growing food and working outside. Not sitting at desks all day. If the world as we know it collapsed everything we have would be worthless. Money is not food. It doesn't grow food and it doesn't keep you warm (I guess you could burn it but how long will that last?) Gold is a worthless metal that is given value because it is pretty.

So, yeah, the world is messed up.

But I think what you're missing is it isn't always about mood. "Happy" and "sad" and all of that really are not the issue for me. My issue is that I am losing my cognitive functioning. I forget how to talk, how to write, how to read. I forget where I am and how to get places I have known my whole life. I see things that are not there, hear things that are not there. They are scary to me, not things I want in my life. I fall into belief patterns that are terrifying and damaging to my life and wellbeing. These are the problems bipolar has presented me. If it was all about "happy and sad and angry" that is something I can handle. But, I need help otherwise. Something is wrong, and it's something that is eating my brain alive. I try very hard to fix it by myself, but obviously it is not going well. My work, my family, my house, everything around me is suffering as I suffer. So the responsible thing is to seek help.

So, that is my road and my journey. You are free to be yourself and be on your own road and journey. Just like my journey is not wrong, yours is not either. I hope you never have to see your intelligant mind start to fall apart like mine is. It is painful to float in and out of who I was and to witness it, but then also lose my grip on reality and not even notice, then come back to it and see what has happened. That is terrifying. I don't wish it on anyone.

[Confusedinomicon]

I think its a mindset thing. I also think the whole 'system' breeds helplessness.

Pills are not going to give me a purpose. Pills wont keep my friends and family close. Pills allieve symptoms. Pills dont fix anything. Its willpower and a desire to that improves my life with the help of medication. Science cant comprehend the complexity of human nature and medicate it to happiness. Content is a perception.

[Anika.]

There are many many branches of science... thank goodness! Which is what I love about it, there is never one path.

Thing is Venus, you are not the only one who gets passionate about these topics. Lots of us do as we have seen here, including me. Everyone has the right to their opinion. Some of our opinions are less accepted than others, if you don't stand up for what you believe you might get steamrolled. As much as I see you being called out, I see the unwillingness from some of the other side to meet in the middle. I am not going to pretend I don't see it. It seems ok to be intolerant, claim these people peeve you (not you saying this) who use other treatment and and claim success doing it, and makes them angry. But it is not really ok to do that if you are in the other treatment category, not that it should be ok to be intolerant. Actually you will get hugs for saying that, which honestly no I don't understand hugging for being intolerant. Some might see what I have to say here hurtful, I am being honest, and I was hurt by some of those statements, I don't think I display intolerance and not on a personal level. I try to support people here who are on meds all the time. I have been on both sides, mentally and chemically. Thing is I feel guilty for saying that it displayed intolerance and that I felt hurt by it. Not that I should, and when people write stuff like that do they feel bad for doing it?

We all have the right share what works for us, it's called trying to help. I refuse to feel guilty about trying to share knowledge, or other perspectives. I don't think that is right to expect. Or expect people to be quite because they have a different opinion, and everyone who shares the common opinion can say as much as they want. It doesn't work that way either.

There is almost always more than one option. Science makes good use of showing us that. As does nature. I wouldn't say psychiatry and pharmacology is science, tho branches of science. Some is based on pretty bad science as well and that is allowed to be said.

[LucyG]

We're so dumbed down as a society that if you can read above the third grade level, you're a genius. Look at the texting how people are forgetting how to spell, and words are being dropped from the language. It's 1984.

[venusss]

So, that is my road and my journey. You are free to be yourself and be on your own road and journey. Just like my journey is not wrong, yours is not either. I hope you never have to see your intelligant mind start to fall apart like mine is. It is painful to float in and out of who I was and to witness it, but then also lose my grip on reality and not even notice, then come back to it and see what has happened. That is terrifying. I don't wish it on anyone.

I posted not so long ago on hallucinating predator drones. So, yes, I have more issues that happy and sad too.

It is hard to get through those, I agree.

I am not sure what it is, but gah, with my other out of it experiences... as unpleasant it is, I do see purpose here too. It's omens, ya'll

Pills are not going to give me a purpose. Pills wont keep my friends and family close. Pills allieve symptoms. Pills dont fix anything. Its willpower and a desire to that improves my life with the help of medication. Science cant comprehend the complexity of human nature and medicate it to happiness. Content is a perception.

that's why it pisses me off the current psychiatry tries to do away with concept of psyche and all that and it tries to see everything on chemical/neurogical level. And if we trust Anatomy of Epidemy.... it's not working.

I have seen many uprooted people. I guess I attract them. And as much as some ended in hands of psychiatry and I pray some of them are alive and maybe just have new phone numbers and hate facebook, alternativelly moved to northern Norway or something... problem of most these people was conflict between what they want and what they are expected to want and be (common death regret... and I am trying hard not to have this one). I wish we were taught to be more aware of ourselves as kids. Not study german/english/have straight As, so I can brag with you to my friends I don't like that much.

[Anika.]

Thing is tho DH, alot of those other things are in part caused by the constant fluctuations in mood, I think the cognitive functioning and the mood are not two totally separate issues. I used to suffer with that a lot, I posted about those things here a lot too. But when I gained stability, those things also did return. And I would have sworn that wouldn't happen. I am sure some of it for me was meds, you not had being on them tho no. But I do think if you reached a place where the moods were stable, that would repair itself also. The brain has the ability to do this, and that is what the neuroplasticity is about. With your mood all over the place, this would be hard to achieve, because environment is a factor in this.

This is off topic, sorry, just trying to shed some light on that, you probably already know that. Seeking help is a good thing DH, what might present a problem tho is that the meds also cause cognitive problems. So while trying to get help, you may see a further decline. Lithium is known for this, remember my pdoc told me to pretend I was practicing for alzheimers on lithium. It could help who knows, everyone is different, but it's a real possibility that it might worsen it too. So I think it is important to keep in mind. We see threads all the time with complaints of cognitive impairment due to meds, it's a real catch 22. Not just cognitive function either, they can create as much instability in mood as they are supposed to be treating.

I hope that would not be the case for you DH, I really don't want you to have to go through that too.

[Lauru]

I just figure whatever works for you, well it works for you. I guess I do get scared when someone tells someone that meds are not necessary. Although really, I imagine it would be just as scary for you Venus when one of us tells someone that meds are necessary. So what do we do? I am trying to couch things with: "This is what has happened to me and worked for me. But you have to talk to your doctor and really look at yourself and see what will work for YOU." So, I try to be politically correct and the most helpful I can possibly be, except for the fact that I do have mental illness and sometimes I just feel like so much **** that I am not really helpful to anyone. And I don't even realize it. I guess I am trying to say that we all have our own validating experiences and viewpoints. And it is ok. It is great, actually. That all of us with all of our different opinions can meet and talk freely and argue freely. That is freedom to me.

[faerie_moon_x]

I actually think one of the truths about myself is I'm too aware of myself.

I'm too aware that if I touch something dusty and I don't wash my hands, my skin tingles and I feel off balance until I do. I am too aware of when I am moving too fast or too slow. The lights are too bright. The clock ticking is too loud. Food has too much flavor, making it disgusting. Sure, I can taste all the nuances in a glass of wine, but I can't drink any wine because all of those flavors overwhelm me. And I was always this way. I was so sensitive to everything. Emotionally and physically. So I would speak up (because I wasn't one to keep quiet.)

And what did that lead to? Bullies. Torment. Being brushed off and ignored. Being told to toughen up. Being told that what I was was definately not good enough. So yeah, I think maybe that's part of what it is to have bipolar for me. I'm to aware of everything that comes at me, and I don't have the proper tools to block these things for some reason and no one took the time to actually teach me if they exist somewhere....

[venusss]

Originally Posted by Lauru

I just figure whatever works for you, well it works for you. I guess I do get scared when someone tells someone that meds are not necessary. Although really, I imagine it would be just as scary for you Venus when one of us tells someone that meds are necessary. So what do we do? I am trying to couch things with: "This is what has happened to me and worked for me. But you have to talk to your doctor and really look at yourself and see what will work for YOU." So, I try to be politically correct and the most helpful I can possibly be, except for the fact that I do have mental illness and sometimes I just feel like so much **** that I am not really helpful to anyone. And I don't even realize it. I guess I am trying to say that we all have our own validating experiences and viewpoints. And it is ok. It is great, actually. That all of us with all of our different opinions can meet and talk freely and argue freely. That is freedom to me.

why do people get scared of alternate viewpoint though? I gotten that in MH communities. Apparently my view points are dangerous, eh.

[faerie_moon_x]

People fear alternate view points because it's human nature to "go with the group." We're social animals. If the tribe wants to go north and you want to go south, well you better go with the tribe or you'll be on your own. But now, there is no tribe. There are only these big giant ideas. And most people would rather go with what is known than what is not.

Look at history. It's all over. They say she's a witch, let's burn her! She uses magic! (herbs) and cures people! Witch! But I am sick, I will go pray and have the priest bless me (acceptable.) Hmmmm... Now it's the other way. Take this medicine, but don't pray/meditate on it. We need both.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

And yet we are more and more unhappy in general.

Go read classic Russian novels of the 19th century cover-to-cover and you will never hold this belief again. (if you have read them already, recall med-free Anna Karenina commiting suicide, Raskolnikov murdering the old woman and all the rest of that)

[Lauru]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

why do people get scared of alternate viewpoint though? I gotten that in MH communities. Apparently my view points are dangerous, eh.

I think, unfortunately, that human beings tend to, in general, be afraid of alternate viewpoints. I think anywhere you get this many people in one place, such as here at PC, then you have a pretty good cross section of the population as a whole. And there are many, many people afraid of what they do not know or do not understand. Which seems very sad to me. I certainly don't think your ideas are dangerous. You are never hurtful, never preach hate. I think only thoughts that are hurtful and hateful are dangerous. And yet, I would still fight for anyone's right to say what they please. Ideas cannot hurt people, only actions or lack of action. I know I, for one, would certainly miss your input and viewpoints. Whether I agree or not, I am always intrigued.

[Anika.]

We still have that tho. Lady kills all her babies cause she is depressed, one american example. There has always been suffering, and always will be. It's part of life, we cannot escape it.

No one makes big examples of people nowadays who commit suicide, it's very frequent, and almost expected. Suicide in our times, seems no big deal. How many of us know someone or more than one person who died at their own hands?

I don't know if we are more unhappy, I wasn't there, and neither were any of us. But no one can say we are more happy either. People cannot handle life now, regular life, why? Life is much different then back then, to the eye it might appear easier now, a lot easier, but it is just different. Much much different.

I am familiar with Anna Karenina. Suicide was a big deal in the 19th century, it was a major religious taboo. Socially, culturally it was a lot different then now. It would be very hard to compare now to then. Also that is a novel.. fiction, Tolstoy was a great writer.. But there are examples, that actually happened.

However suicide rates are up something like 60% in the last 50 years mostly in developing countries. Says something about our happiness in the last 50 years.

[venusss]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

Go read classic Russian novels of the 19th century cover-to-cover and you will never hold this belief again. (if you have read them already, recall med-free Anna Karenina commiting suicide, Raskolnikov murdering the old woman and all the rest of that)

um, I did. And I have been to Russia of 21st century. Maybe it's somethign about Russia. Never had country trigger me soooo. Not even Kosovo.
And... at certain point comrades tried to medicate not liking living in Russia. doubleplusungood.

Of course, some people would medicate Franz Kafka. I still maintain he was not depressed clinically, he was just pariah who sensed incoming doom).

And ditto at what Anika says. Sometimes people kill themselves on meds. Some OD with the very prescribed meds.
And what bothers me that suicide is considered just as symptom of MI these days. Not symptom of something more... global. At least we don't call monks of Vietnam or Jan Palach and Jan Zajic mentally ill.

[Anika.]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

At least we don't call monks of Vietnam or Jan Palach and Jan Zajic mentally ill.

Yet....
Just an idea... maybe once we are all declared mentally ill, we will all be well again.

Yes I gave you a hug in your OP, I know.. I am sorry.

[venusss]

Awww, it's okay

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Anika.

We still have that tho. Lady kills all her babies cause she is depressed, one american example. There has always been suffering, and always will be. It's part of life, we cannot escape it.

No one makes big examples of people nowadays who commit suicide, it's very frequent, and almost expected. Suicide in our times, seems no big deal. How many of us know someone or more than one person who died at their own hands?

I don't know if we are more unhappy, I wasn't there, and neither were any of us. But no one can say we are more happy either. People cannot handle life now, regular life, why? Life is much different then back then, to the eye it might appear easier now, a lot easier, but it is just different. Much much different.

I am familiar with Anna Karenina. Suicide was a big deal in the 19th century, it was a major religious taboo. Socially, culturally it was a lot different then now. It would be very hard to compare now to then. Also that is a novel.. fiction, Tolstoy was a great writer.. But there are examples, that actually happened.

However suicide rates are up something like 60% in the last 50 years mostly in developing countries. Says something about our happiness in the last 50 years.

Comparing suicide rates gets us a little closer to being able to say whether we are happier or not. Without such comparisons, "we are less and less happy" is a mere assertion.

There might be many factors behind the growing suicide rate including seculirization of societies: people who in the past would have been reluctant to kill themselves for religious reasons now go ahead with their plans. Higher demans on individuals, too. The ambiguous role of technology (cyberbullying has been known to lead to suicides and cyberbullying did not exist 50 years ago). And probably many others. But yours is the right step: you are bringing in a statistic. Without statistics, such conversations are pointless and being a hippie is just a fine personal choice that does not exempt one from the obligation to use data rather than just make statements.

I did a hippie thing 12 years ago - a homebirth, but there is enough data documenting homebirth's safety. Plus, a baby cannot catch an infection when born at home.

[venusss]

Human happiness CANNOT be meausured and graphed. It's too elusive for that.

If you wanna statistics though, there is one about how people today have much less people to confide in than hunderd years ago. Telling, isn't it?

And no, I don't have no damn obligation to use damn statistics in philosophical and abstract conversation. Data can be interpreted in many ways, that is the point of post-modernism (like you just expressed in your paragraph about suicides, eh).

Maybe you SHOULD try to let go of the data and stastics for a bit and realize it's not all there's to life philosophy. Or would you graph Kafka and Buddha?

[faerie_moon_x]

The thing is people keep saying the word "Happy" and I don't think that's actually the reason for suicide.

I have suicidal thoughts. I have them even when everything in my life is going great. I've done a great deal of work on myself to overcome them. I will overcome them for a while, but then they will come back. Even with enough to eat, a good husband, great kids, warm bed, roof over my head they will come back. And I know this, so I must be ready to fight at all times. That's because suicidal thoughts have nothing to do with being "happy." And that's where the media gets it wrong.

"S/He had all the (fill in the blank) in the world, but still wasn't happy." That's an incorrect statement. Suicide isn't a direct result of unhappiness in all cases. Like I've said before, it's like psychosis. You become unaware of reality. You lose your ability to reality check. Something happens inside of your mind and tries to take over you and if it wins, you die.

It's like my husband will complain to me, "You're depressed because you're unhappy with me." No, that's not true. It has nothing to do with him. I was depressed long before I even met him. Depression doesn't actually have anything to do with happiness. It effects the feeling "happiness" but it's something else all together.

So everyone chasing after "happy" is chasing the wrong thing.

Sorry if I'm rambling I am not really clear today....

[venusss]

Oh you make perfect sense.

Yeah, purpose is more important then happy (no, no stastics to it, sorry). Since happiness can elude... but purpose... it stays. It keeps you going.

[faerie_moon_x]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

Oh you make perfect sense.

Yeah, purpose is more important then happy (no, no stastics to it, sorry). Since happiness can elude... but purpose... it stays. It keeps you going.

Yeah.

I give up chasing happiness. Happiness finds you on its own. That's not what I am looking for. I am looking for wellness.

[venusss]

well, I chase for the moments. To recall them in dark nights.

SLeeping on hard rocks on Albanian beach, with sea noises and tiny resorts and villages with their flickering lights on the other sides of the bay. The beauty of mountains on road to Pristina. Yalta from above (from Ay Petri mountain). Dancing on cobblestones in Prague, just cause! Talking to my friends, being surreal and highly abstract...

you get what I mean?

[TheDragon]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

But yours is the right step: you are bringing in a statistic. Without statistics, such conversations are pointless and being a hippie is just a fine personal choice that does not exempt one from the obligation to use data rather than just make statements.

The Unknown Citizen

When it comes to dealing with humanity though, statics are just sooooo boring though! No, seriously though, have we "advanced" so much that we can quantify human lives, emotions, and perhaps human nature in itself? Anyone with an academic background can tell you that, assuming you have a reliable source, various sources provide various statistics for almost anything. Somethings the varying statistics are similar, and sometimes provide different conclusions.

Objective thinking alone is useless without subjective thoughts. We're dealing with humanity at large, not mathematics. And can suicide and happiness really be intertwined statistically? Some of the statistically happiest countries in the world have the highest suicide rates by %, yet others that are on that list are considered very very happy.

Statistically speaking, Lithuania has the highest suicide rate in the world...AFTER the fall of communism and the country moved well on ahead compared to their other Baltic neighbours. After the quality of life went up, so to speak. So once again, is suicide a statistic we can really use to help deal with happiness? Let's try to not quantify happiness with such a silly statistic.

[TheDragon]

Venus - I want to quote one of my favourite books of all times, Brave new World by Aldous Huxley.

“But I don't want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want sin.”

This is said by the Savage a.k.a. John, near the end of his conversation with Mond. They're having a debate as to the wellness and happiness of humanity at large. Mond, who supports their current world has very set and defined parameters for happiness, and by most artificial modern standards, the people are very happy. And yet, the Savage so fervently argues against this illusion of happiness, merely measuring it as comfort, because to him real happiness lays in everything outside of the immediate contentment of comforts. Even Mond backs him up with, “Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery. And, of course, stability isn't nearly so spectacular as instability. And being contented has none of the glamour of a good fight against misfortune, none of the picturesqueness of a struggle with temptation, or a fatal overthrow by passion or doubt. Happiness is never grand.”

The biggest struggle we have is that it becomes so easy to define unhappiness, but find it near impossible to define happiness at large. To some, what many people have is happiness, and yet to the more cynical philosophers, that happiness is as flimsy and weak as tissue, to be cast aside for "true" happiness. So is it possible to truly chase happiness? I fully agree that people chasing "happiness" are often chasing the wrong thing. But I also fully agree that it is fully possible to chase and cherish the moments that define happiness to us on a personal level, or to the soul if you will. Neither are truly wrong because I fully believe that it is a full spectrum rainbow, rather than the road not taken or even the road well traveled.