Integrity

Integrity is the hallmark of intelligence.

Since bipolar illness is a mood disorder and not an intellectual one, if we get our integrity where we think it should be, our intelligence is going to rule.

That's going to make the feelings begin to subside and strong thinking becomes more meaningful and useful: it won't be side-tracked by emotions.

The problem with this illness is that emotions get in the way of thinking.

What about when your thinking gets sidetracked by thinking?

I would think that your emotions are first intruding on your thinking capacity; so
you have to make sure the thinking is clean to start the process. By "clean" I mean
that you have nothing in your past that would drive your emotions to be suspicious
in coming to a clear perception of reality.

Integrity always leads to a clear perception of reality, I think. Tell me if I'm wrong,
but I've found it to be true many times.

If there is something in the past that causes you to be overly suspicious, please get rid of that by talking about it with your psychiatrist. That's a major benefit of therapy, I think--to get rid of distressing past events that intrude on present-day thinking. We must forgive others or ourselves of those things first, IMHO.

My thinking is almost ALWAYS the culprit of my emotional distress, not the other way around. My emotions are almost always a reaction to irrational thinking. That's why therapy has been SO important for me; it has shown me how to become more aware of the thinking that DRIVES my emotions and how to evaluate my thinking and adjust it when I recognize my thinking is completed screwed up.

No, not for me, the emotions get in the way of thinking, not in the way your thinking gets in the way of your emotions.

One wonders what our childhoods must have been like that caused our thinking to be skewed by emotions so, or why our skewed thinking affects our emotions.

In my case, my father was the stable, intelligent one. My mother (who was physically a beautiful Irish lady) had emotional problems, I'm almost certain of that, and one psychiatrist confirmed it. Was your childhood life in the home very different from mine?

That was the root of my problem, although I was told that all I needed was to be around healthy people. Sibling rivalry played a part in it, too, especially with a sister 5 years older who really put the screws to me when I was just 1 and 2 years old.

Oh, what's the ultimate point of it all?

We make our lives what we want them to be by our integrity, and the intelligence falls in line unless....and you name it. Something gets in the way of that for bipolar patients, and usually it's ghosts from the past in childhood (or even a bit of chocolate, lol, now that I've done my research, lol).

Good wishes.

I agree with farm girl that it is my thinking that drives me over the edge. I have racing and looping thoughts. They are obsessive, driving force and at the same time I don't have just one thought. It's like spinning the dial on the radio, (like an old style radio, not a search function,) where as you pass the channels you don't stop on you can still hear the clips and snips of voices, and you just randomly stop on random chanels for long enough to catch 1-2 words then move on.

That's my thought process.

Okay. Dark Heart X, you need to (in my opinion) talk to your psychiatrist about just
what you are expressing to us. Your meds may need tweaking or you may have
something bothering you that is considered a cerebral allergy.

Only an allergist or a psychiatrist can explore that for you to locate the problem,
but I feel sure one or the other of them will find the problem for you and resolve it.

Let us know how you get along; I'll be thinking about you and listening for good
news that it has been resolved for you.

You're going to be waiting quite a long time, sorry.

I can easily talk myself into a dangerous corner, I do lots of self checks and use all the coping skills I have. I have a fantastic T and Pdoc. For me : I don't immediatly look to tweak or change my medications, Moods/emotions come and go.

Why do you say that, Dark Heart X? It's one of several things: either there's something in the past that led to extreme suspiciousness of others; you have
a medication that is bringing on paranoia (which can be very likely) or you either
can't talk about it or have a negative view of your own ability to beat this thing--which you can do, in my view.

Take care.

Or she has bipolar disorder that has, as part of the diagnosis, a tendency toward racing, ruminating, thinking . . . . This kind of thought pattern IS one of the criteria of the diagnosis. Even with medication, that tendency is going to be there for most of us. That's not an "allergy". That's bipolar. It is what it is. That is why therapy modalities that will work on dealing with that kind of racing, cyclical thinking that triggers and drives our moods, can be so very helpful with this diagnosis.

I don't think dark heart has a "negative view" about her thinking process. She just sounds like someone who clearly understands that it is often her disordered thinking that drives her emotional state. I happen to agree with that. Again, for the most part (and there are times that are exceptions for me), it is my thinking that triggers me and leads me heading down that path of depression, etc. It doesn't generally work the other way around. My emotions don't usually come out of nowhere. They are not driving my thinking. It is my thinking that sets off my emotions. That is what dark heart seems to believe also.

In a way, I don't think you are really disagreeing with that because you speak of the need to understand where those emotions come from, but your statement "The problem with this illness is that emotions get in the way of thinking" is what I take exception with (and I think that is dark hearts opinion also). We are saying it is our thinking process that very often sets off our emotions. Meds or diet or seeing an "allergist" are not really going to change our thinking patterns for the most part. That is something we have to work on ourselves, often with the help of the therapist who has a good understanding of how bipolarness affects a person's thinking.

This is exactly what I was trying to say!

Here's the thing.

I'll be totally fine. Totally fine. Not irritable. Not a bad mood. Nothing. Possibly even smiling, laughing, and having fun.

Then, I hear someone laughing in another room. They must be laughing at me. They're telling jokes about me. I just know they are. Why can't they just leave me alone? They're not really any better than me! I swear those people need to learn a lesson! I am not going to take it any more.... etc.... and then I am having the emotions: rage, humiliation, sadness, etc. (This is a paranoid thinking pattern for me, a very very common one.) This is what I need help with stopping, changing, and turning around. It wasn't an "emotion" that started it for me. It was an irrational thought reaction to a trigger. Do you see what I'm saying?

And the reason I said it will take a long time is because:
A) I have no health insurance.
B) Visits to a T in my area start at $80 per visit, which is a lot of money for me.
C) Visits to a pdoc are closer to the $200 range.
D) I'm moving to a new county in about a month, so I don't want to set up in this county for assistance when I'll have to do it again (which means taking time off of work, filling out forms, collecting qualifying paperwork, etc.)
E) Cognitive behavioral therapy does not work over night.
F) Meds are not a magic Harry Potter wand.
G) Full recovery from paranoid thinking may not be possible, but lessening it or having a "remission" is. Just like curing bipolar isn't possible.

Also, this isn't caused by meds. I wasn't on meds last year when all this started. This has been building up.

Also, I am learning my triggers (like above) which is key.

Also, I do have major issues with food. So I don't wish to discuss that right now it's a huge trigger for me.

From what I can see, and I could be wrong, but to me having triggers means that something triggers an emotion.

I understand the way you break it down DH, but I can see Genetics point also. To me it would seem like the hearing the laughter triggers some kind of feeling, which sends the thoughts spiraling. The thoughts are probably much louder than whatever the feelings are at that point. And then the thoughts bring out the really strong emotions.

When you are doing therapy type work you are not just working on the thought process, but you are also working on your response to things, yes your thought response, but from what I can see also your first emotional response to things as well. Those quick triggers that get the thoughts in motion do seem to have an emotional tone to them.

Often I think our thoughts are directed by feelings, feeling like people are laughing at us, like they think they are better etc.. does seem to imply there are issues of feelings and emotions under them...

So even if you were totally fine at the moment, happy even.. whatever the trigger is, it is tied to some feelings and emotions, the thoughts seem instant and they pull out bigger emotions which are more obvious and stronger. But without the connection they might not be triggering at all.

I believe our thought processes are learned over time or from experiences, perception, a combo of things that all carry some emotion with them. Like a web all intertwined.

I am not sure if that is what Genetic is saying but that is how I am seeing it. It is kind of a messy deal, chicken or egg thing to try and sort out. All I really know is that when I had to correct many thought processes in and outside of therapy I had to work on the emotion ties I had to those thoughts, and where they were coming from. They were always tied to some deep seated emotions, feelings, experiences, and beliefs. Nothing was independent from each other. Like they all needed support from each other to be the back bone of the thoughts.

Yes, Anika, you and I think on similar levels, and I agree with you on this.

What Dark Heart X's explanation seems to me to be is this:

1. Her emotions are at the root of her problems with paranoia--not her intellectual thinking. The emotions whack at her thinking almost immediately upon experiencing a trigger.

2. She is intelligent and gives rational reasons for all her thinking.

3. If she could, she would very likely do everything possible to clear her emotions of the strong sensitivity which is characteristic of the illness as well as the rapid mood changing.

It was an extremely intelligent psychiatrist who first told me that it was my emotions that got in the way of my thinking. That's the way it was, Farmer Girl, for me.

If you look closely at what Black Heart X is saying, it is the depth of her feeling that is causing her intellect to be clouded by the emotions she has about her husband's behavior. If her emotions were cleared of those feelings there would be no need to think such ideas about the fact that her husband enjoys someone else's friendship. She would likely be glad for him that he is able to share a friendly relationship with someone different. She can't do that because of feeling threatened by the friendship he has...if that's not the emotions driving the thought, I don't know what is.

Her intelligence keeps telling her " it's not real, it's not real".
She has a lot going for her if she can just free herself from the entanglement in the emotions that overwhelm her intelligence in this specific matter. She hints that it's relevant to other things, as well, but we don't know about the rest of her life's feelings.

I think she would be fine if she has the opportunity in another country to proceed with therapy to remove the hangup with that emotion regarding her husband's behavior.

Farmer Girl, you have a perspective that is different from mine. I've never experienced paranoia as part of the illness.

Finally, one must allow for a wide variety of moods in bipolar patients. Not everyone is going to experience the illness as Farmer Girl and Black Heart X do. Some of us are going to have the thought pattern that Anika and I do or that any one of 30 other people on this forum may have. That, in my view, is the truth of this.

There is also a question of boundaries regarding triggers here. What causes one to be so engrossed in the life of another that it's impossible to let the loved one have an independent but compatible relationship in the marriage?

It takes a lot of living to learn where one stops and another begins. And what about Dark Heart X's respect for her inner being? That needs bolstering, in my view, to give her the independence to live a life of her own beside her husband.

I'm glad to see different points of view being accepted on the forum. I have respect for most of them from everyone, but still have my independent thoughts.

My earnest hope is that Dark Heart X will find a therapist in the country that she will be living in and seek recovery that way. I understand that paranoia can be deeply ingrained in the personality if it is permitted to grow. She will be much stronger in her thought that she can overcome it than to resign herself to its prevalence in her life indefinitely--an opinion that is meant igenuinely in her best interests.

My view is that she can't afford not to do something about it for her future and her relationship with her husband. That relationship could be in jeopardy, since marriage is an intellectual, emotional, and spiritual relationship for most people capable to deep love. Love like that isn't threatened so easily by paranoid thinking, but it could become wearisome and stress both partners unless the emotions fueling it are corrected.

Behind all of the skewed emotional reactions lies a deep insecurity that needs to be resolved, in my view, especially a view of one's real self.

And Paranoia is often a separate illness from Bipolar Disorder altogether.

Hope you all have a good day.

Okay, but what you said is that people with bipolar lack integrety and if we could just do that, then we'd be fine. And that's not true.

So, I am done with discussion because I'm going to explode.

No, Dark Heart X, that isn't what I said.

Well, there's no point in going further with this than to say that integrity
grows from our childhood until we leave this world for the next and
that, when we have reached the point that we feel our integrity is where
we want it to be, the intelligence will rule. That isn't to say that Bipolar folks don't have integrity!. Some of the finest Bipolar people I have ever known have stellar integrity.

I wish you well, Dark Heart X, but don't explode, please! Everyone is
trying to help, not hurt you.

Dr. Robert Hare, who is the reknowned expert on the psychopath, says
that the psychopath has no soul. To the extent that the gift of
integrity is related to the soul, I would say that most of us who are not
psychopaths are going to try to develop our integrity from the toddler
age into antiquity!

Take care and good wishes to you, Dark Heart X.

I don't think Genetic means integrity like we are dishonest or something. Which does not mean we are to blame or like its a shameful thing. More like internal consistancy. Integrity is often a misused word, I think it boils down to being congruent in actions, feelings, emotions, actions, thoughts. not used as an ethical words but the concept of intergrity.

Words like integrity ... living with intention, words like that are often misunderstood. Congruency doesn't just happen to anyone bipolar or not. everyone struggles with that in their lives. I stumbled with the word a bit too.

My old T very briefly talked to me about congruency. Gandhi also talked about this a lot.. Being congruent with feelings, thoughts, words and actions.. creates harmony. To me that is the same as integrity.. not easy to do no, possible forsure. Something for us to work towards to bring harmony to our lives.

DH I hope you are ok. I think it is important to talk about this stuff, so we can try to manage some of our stuff. It gives us more power to direct our lives. If we feel triggered and turn away from them which is extremely tempting and compelling to do because it feels completely awful we essentially avoid dealing with them or confronting them.

Like in your thread you got a lot of advice to avoid it, avoid the situation, and stay away from it, but to me that doesn't seem helpful in the long term, because nothing gets solved. And I know you are trying very hard to figure that out and take power back from that thinking. So I think some of this is kind of key to that situation. Lots of times when triggers get mentioned or come up peoples reactions are to "not go there". But maybe the trigger is really saying "hey! look at me, I need your attention!!". We tend to be like, yes later when I am ready, I cannot handle it now. Truth is most of the time, later doesn't come and totally ready doesn't happen either, we might never feel ready. We all want to avoid pain and want others to not feel it as well.

I certainly do not want to make you upset, nor were my intentions at all. I like talking about these things yes, cause to me they seem to get at roots of problems more. It's messy, uncomfortable, and hard to talk about and use the right words. I hope you are ok tho.... I myself have had a hard time with this stuff. I really do understand DH, you know I had a lot of paranoia before and I can still slip into it here and there. It really is not easy. It is constant work, and I really understand that. It's not a pleasant place to be in at all.